NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[South of the Yarra]

Yeah I think the use of the terms in this thread led to my erroneous belief that all the complainants identify as Aboriginal.

First Nation and Indigenous are fine but are more preferred by Governments and Organisations. Many Aboriginal people find these terms too generic.
Aboriginal whilst generic is preferred and also many Aboriginal people will refer to themselves by their land, family, clan. mob or language. So I might say I am a Yolngu or Arrernte people or that some of my family is Wemba Wemba and Mulluk Mulluk people. This brings an individuality to our cultures.
Aborigine or Aborigines is to be avoided and can cause offence.

 

[the big lebowski]

What groups are included?

Based on the discussion in here I had assumed that the complainants all identified as Aboriginal.

So does 99% of Australia

There’s been a long line of systemic racism in the AFL towards guys who have one Maori parent though.

 

[sr36]

First Nation and Indigenous are fine but are more preferred by Governments and Organisations. Many Aboriginal people find these terms too generic.
Aboriginal whilst generic is preferred and also many Aboriginal people will refer to themselves by their land, family, clan. mob or language. So I might say I am a Yolngu or Arrernte people or that some of my family is Wemba Wemba and Malak Malak people. This brings an individuality to our cultures.
Aborigine or Aborigines is to be avoided and can cause offence.

It's a strange one. The prefix ab means "away from" So not original, which was a bizarre European view of first nations people.

 

[ChristianBoy]

So Aboriginal kids from communities are ' too high maintenance'? Can you please explain why?

Are you being deliberately argumentative.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Coaches won't be there to offer guidance and life training.

But really, are these blokes really qualified to do this?

I mean, almost all of them have never lived life outside of football. And in that football bubble, they've been treated like heroes from the day they stepped out of high school.

Most AFL coaches would be unbelievably underqualified when it comes to 'life training'.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Are you being deliberately argumentative.

Argumentative? No, I challenge things that I see as stereotyping Aboriginals. Why the hell would Aboriginal kids from communities be 'too high maintenance' when other kids are not? That is borderline. Please offer your opinion. I find it astounding that Aboriginal kids are seen as 'too high maintainance' so clubs won't become culturally aware and work with kids but just stop drafting them. That is a frightening attitude and pretty much sums up everything I have said.

 

[Osho]

How the hell could they have worked out whether it was racially motivated

I guess only if they expanded the review to all players irrespective of cultural background, and found discrepancies, and patterns.

 

[ChristianBoy]

Argumentative? No, I challenge things that I see as stereotyping Aboriginals. Why the hell would Aboriginal kids from communities be 'too high maintenance' when other kids are not? That is borderline. Please offer your opinion. I find it astounding that Aboriginal kids are seen as 'too high maintainance' so clubs won't become culturally aware and work with kids but just stop drafting them. That is a frightening attitude and pretty much sums up everything I have said.

Have you worked in these communities or have been involved in some capacity?

 

[sr36]

I believe this scandal is a watershed moment in AFL history and it will forever change the relationship between players and their coach & club.
Not just for the cultural sensitivities towards Indigenous players. But the manner in which AFL coaches interact with all of their players.

I think we'll start seeing a more business-like approach similar to American sports, where players will be left to their own devices once training has finished and they drive away from the practise field. American athletes aren't regulated by their employer like AFL players are. They can indulge their rock star fantasies. They go on wild cocaine binges with hookers and all their hangers-on. And if they go too far and they get arrested and or have compromising photos published on social media, their employer tears up their lucrative contract and tells them to f... off.

We will end up going down that same path here unfortunately and the lives of many promising young footballers will be ruined. Coaches won't be there to offer guidance and life training. It will be more of a business transaction. Colder and more ruthless. Continually missing training sessions? See ya later, bud. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

It will also affect recruiting & draft day decisions. Clubs will be less willing to take a punt on the indigenous kid from the remote community with their rookie selections and late picks. Why bother? It's too high maintainance and the attrition rate is too high. They'll just take the kid with similar ability from the Sandringham Dragons. It's a safer bet. If you say that out loud, people will call you "Racist!" (just like they did to Matty Rendell) but it's purely pragmatic. Clubs only get so many draft picks and list vacancies.

I honestly think this will result in fewer indigenous players on AFL lists. We'll still see the Buddy's, the Cyril's and the Burgoyne's. We'll be less likely to see the Tipungwuti's, the Jurrah's and the Mosquito's.

Nah. You've got it wrong. That was the era of trying to force conformity to the dominant team culture. There was a big attrition rate amongst indigenous kids in that era. That's past and clubs are adapting and have become more inclusive to get more success from kids who would have failed in that era.

 

[perplexed]

I guess only if they expanded the review to all players irrespective of cultural background, and found discrepancies, and patterns.

This was Egan's third recommendation. Hawthorn have ignored it.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

This was Egan's third recommendation. Hawthorn have ignored it.

Ha! It’s not like they’ve had a bit on their plate to work through before they go quizzing every ex-player, is it.

 

[Kwality]

I believe this scandal is a watershed moment in AFL history and it will forever change the relationship between players and their coach & club.
Not just for the cultural sensitivities towards Indigenous players. But the manner in which AFL coaches interact with all of their players.

I think we'll start seeing a more business-like approach similar to American sports, where players will be left to their own devices once training has finished and they drive away from the practise field. American athletes aren't regulated by their employer like AFL players are. They can indulge their rock star fantasies. They go on wild cocaine binges with hookers and all their hangers-on. And if they go too far and they get arrested and or have compromising photos published on social media, their employer tears up their lucrative contract and tells them to f... off.

We will end up going down that same path here unfortunately and the lives of many promising young footballers will be ruined. Coaches won't be there to offer guidance and life training. It will be more of a business transaction. Colder and more ruthless. Continually missing training sessions? See ya later, bud. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

It will also affect recruiting & draft day decisions. Clubs will be less willing to take a punt on the indigenous kid from the remote community with their rookie selections and late picks. Why bother? It's too high maintainance and the attrition rate is too high. They'll just take the kid with similar ability from the Sandringham Dragons. It's a safer bet. If you say that out loud, people will call you "Racist!" (just like they did to Matty Rendell) but it's purely pragmatic. Clubs only get so many draft picks and list vacancies.

I honestly think this will result in fewer indigenous players on AFL lists. We'll still see the Buddy's, the Cyril's and the Burgoyne's. We'll be less likely to see the Tipungwuti's, the Jurrah's and the Mosquito's.

The WA clubs have featured indigenous footballers since the 50s that I recall watching, & just as the Rioli's came down to Perth in the 70s (Sebastian then Maurice & Dean), the East Perth premierships in the late 50s included 4 indigenous players (Farmer & Kilmurray winning Sandover Medals), so if the VFL attitude were adopted by the Vics, the WA talent would stay in WA, the same would apply in SA, & the NT talent would continue to come down to Perth & Adelaide (David Kantilla was the first Tiwi Islander to come down to South Adelaide in 1961).

So NO CHANCE the vic clubs wont chase the best players.

Apologies to the likes of Bill Dempsey. (Dempsey's remarkable journey continues with Hall of Fame honour)

 

[mr bagcroft]

Why would you say that because your white your opinion probably counts for not much?

Your opinion counts the same as any other person being black, white or brindle

I guess I cant speak from experience, and society tells me as a white man I am part of the problem.

 

[Elixuh]

Ha! It’s not like they’ve had a bit on their plate to work through before they go quizzing every ex-player, is it.

Hawthorn won’t be going and quizzing every ex player

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Hawthorn won’t be going and quizzing every ex player

No shit.

 

[demondavey]

What are you implying with the term posts like this?

What he is implying is that your post is a means to segue away from institutionalised racism of aboriginals in Australia which has widespread implications for issues such as the Hawthorn issue. In fact that is the undisputed link to virtually every case of racial discrimination to indigenous people.

You can’t discount that and focus on the Hawthorn investigation in isolation. That way you’re implying it’s a unique experience, which it isn’t.

 

[ferball]

What he is implying is that your post is a means to segue away from institutionalised racism of aboriginals in Australia which has widespread implications for issues such as the Hawthorn issue. In fact that is the undisputed link to virtually every case of racial discrimination to indigenous people.

You can’t discount that and focus on the Hawthorn investigation in isolation. That way you’re implying it’s a unique experience, which it isn’t.

Institutiuonalised racism is one thing. What people call casual racism is another worse thing.

The racism in the Alice Springs for example.

Its not institutionalised, its flat out hatred. Gunner's political expediency isn't institutional racism it comes from his flaws as a person. (Tho the way the police police the NT, or small towns throughout most of Australia is more about institutional or systemic racism these days.)

The reason there are some shops where I get served last whoever walks in isn't institutionalised. Those people are just campaigners.

The people burning crosses on the hills directly west of where I live now, this century - that isn't institutionalised racism and neither is the mentality that drove Brendon Tarrant to murder all those old people, women and children in their place of worship. Like Ice T sings - the hate is real.

 

[blackshadow]

What he is implying is that your post is a means to segue away from institutionalised racism of aboriginals in Australia which has widespread implications for issues such as the Hawthorn issue. In fact that is the undisputed link to virtually every case of racial discrimination to indigenous people.

You can’t discount that and focus on the Hawthorn investigation in isolation. That way you’re implying it’s a unique experience, which it isn’t.

Please read my post again.

I didn't ask for a shut down of the wider discussion of racism but rather just draw it back to the topic at hand, of course racism is part of the discussion here but to me it seems that a lot of the discussion in this thread is not particularly relevant to the Hawthorn investigation or whatever the buzz phrase of the day is.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Have you worked in these communities or have been involved in some capacity?

Just out of interest have you worked in these communities or been involved in some capacity?

 

[demondavey]

Institutiuonalised racism is one thing. What people call casual racism is another worse thing.

The racism in the Alice Springs for example.

Its not institutionalised, its flat out hatred. Gunner's political expediency isn't institutional racism it comes from his flaws as a person. (Tho the way the police police the NT, or small towns throughout most of Australia is more about institutional or systemic racism these days.)

The reason there are some shops where I get served last whoever walks in isn't institutionalised. Those people are just campaigners.

The people burning crosses on the hills directly west of where I live now, this century - that isn't institutionalised racism and neither is the mentality that drove Brendon Tarrant to murder all those old people, women and children in their place of worship. Like Ice T sings - the hate is real.

It’s institutionalised in that there is a nasty undercurrent of it still existing. The hatred stemming from Brenton Tarrant types etc is just next level.

 

[demondavey]

I guess I cant speak from experience, and society tells me as a white man I am part of the problem.

That’s a bit soft, you’re just generalising

 

[Chief]

Gee I just got named in the worst 50 posters on Big Footy in another thread due to my aggressiveness on this thread. Ranked number 45. Can I add that to my list of achievements? Do I get a banner for it?

Bay 13 - Bottom 50 Posters of 2023

Hi all, Back by popular demand I will be running my famous list that has historically proved to be quite a hit.

www.bigfooty.com

Perhaps we need a banner on your account.

 

[Elixuh]

Gee I just got named in the worst 50 posters on Big Footy in another thread due to my aggressiveness on this thread. Ranked number 45. Can I add that to my list of achievements? Do I get a banner for it?

Bay 13 - Bottom 50 Posters of 2023

Hi all, Back by popular demand I will be running my famous list that has historically proved to be quite a hit.

www.bigfooty.com

A disproportionality large number of north supporters on this website are genuine imbeciles, so I wouldn’t take it personally.

 

[Chief]

I promise I won’t be as aggressive any more lol. Think it’s time for me to head back to the Super Coach thread and stay there.

Yes now that you have been suitably admonished by the resident brains trust!

 

[ferball]

Gee I just got named in the worst 50 posters on Big Footy in another thread due to my aggressiveness on this thread. Ranked number 45. Can I add that to my list of achievements? Do I get a banner for it?

Bay 13 - Bottom 50 Posters of 2023

Hi all, Back by popular demand I will be running my famous list that has historically proved to be quite a hit.

www.bigfooty.com

What the ****?

Okay just looked. Some crusty old white campaigner from Mildura. Makes sense then.