NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


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[Maddo11]

The thing that gets me about this whole situation is

1. Players remain anonymous
2. Players go to the ABC and the ABC create a picture that Clarkson and Fagan are guilty
3. Even if Clarkson and Fagan are completely innocent of all allegations it will permanently staine their reputation.

I personally don't know who is or isn't guilty and I feel that it's been trial by media. If Clarkson isn't guilty then he may chose to go after people making false allegations.

This could go for a long time

If people could stop assuming that the ABC would just print something outrageously defamatory without basic checking, that would be great

It's not trial by media, it's media doing it's damn job

 

[King Huskii]

If people could stop assuming that the ABC would just print something outrageously defamatory without basic checking, that would be great

It's not trial by media, it's media doing it's damn job

Is it? They haven't even gone through a process yet the ABC has painted them as guilty. How do you know the ABC has gone through a rigorous process. Clarkson and Fagan were never interviewed as part of the process.

In a court of law this wouldn't hold weight.

 

[Laphroaig]

It's not trial by media, it's media doing it's damn job

The ABC stopped being a media organisation years ago.

The ABC sees itself more as a social engineer than as media "doing its damn job".

Most ABC journos are no better than Kyle and Jacqui when it comes to media doing its damn job.

They just occupy a different opinion spectrum.

 

[Maddo11]

Is it? They haven't even gone through a process yet the ABC has painted them as guilty. How do you know the ABC has gone through a rigorous process. Clarkson and Fagan were never interviewed as part of the process.

In a court of law this wouldn't hold weight.

Where in Jacko's article did it say what the punishment for the crime should be? Or what the verdict was?

It boils down to " we have verified claims that an anonymous source has said this happened and it involved these people. We tried to contact them but they didn't offer a response"

 

[King Huskii]

Where in Jacko's article did it say what the punishment for the crime should be? Or what the verdict was?

It boils down to " we have verified claims that an anonymous source has said this happened and it involved these people. We tried to contact them but they didn't offer a response"

And now Clarkson and Fagan are viewed by people as guilty before given the opportunity to prove innocence. By the way not all people accused of things want to go public. Some chose lawyers to fight for them the legal way.

 

[jj15]

If people could stop assuming that the ABC would just print something outrageously defamatory without basic checking, that would be great

It's not trial by media, it's media doing it's damn job

So where are the facts?

 

[BigPond101]

If people could stop assuming that the ABC would just print something outrageously defamatory without basic checking, that would be great

It's not trial by media, it's media doing it's damn job

Come on mate a story about racist white male AFL coaches is what dreams are made of at the ABC. It would very much be a case of just print the story and worry about consequences later. If they get sued the government are paying for their lawyers and any damages so who cares

 

[gouki88]

Why are you calling her a "white lady with a saviour complex"?

She's a lawyer who has been employed by her clients to represent them. Why are you racialising her work and painting her with a patronising brush?

He's being a misogynist actually

 

[gouki88]

Come on mate a story about racist white male AFL coaches is what dreams are made of at the ABC. It would very much be a case of just print the story and worry about consequences later. If they get sued the government are paying for their lawyers and any damages so who cares

This is unbelievably naive

 

[sr36]

Come on mate a story about racist white male AFL coaches is what dreams are made of at the ABC. It would very much be a case of just print the story and worry about consequences later. If they get sued the government are paying for their lawyers and any damages so who cares

One of the positives of this thread is that it hasn't gone down the rubbish US right wing/left wing media angle. Everyone with a clue knows that the other big media outlets went "****, how did we get so scooped on the Hawthorn review?" And then rushed to get their own reports up about it. Who knows if they would have made the same editorial decision to name the coaches? I think they would have, as it makes the story bigger. But that's a guess without knowing the full evidence available and enough about the laws and risk involved in naming the coaches.

 

[Maddo11]

And now Clarkson and Fagan are viewed by people as guilty before given the opportunity to prove innocence. By the way not all people accused of things want to go public. Some chose lawyers to fight for them the legal way.

Viewed guilty by who? They haven't been fired, so not their employers..

So where are the facts?

Multiple sources with similar stories + the emails that leaked + the Hawks assistant coach that came forward and verified some of the claims are enough to report allegations on without the fear of defamation lawsuits

Come on mate a story about racist white male AFL coaches is what dreams are made of at the ABC. It would very much be a case of just print the story and worry about consequences later. If they get sued the government are paying for their lawyers and any damages so who cares

Oh yeah you're right actually, this whole thing is Ita getting back at Labor for winning the election by burying the ABC in lawsuits

Oh wait wasn't it the LNP that most recently sued "their own" ABC.....

 

[King Huskii]

Viewed guilty by who? They haven't been fired, so not their employers..



Multiple sources with similar stories + the emails that leaked + the Hawks assistant coach that came forward and verified some of the claims are enough to report allegations on without the fear of defamation lawsuits


Oh yeah you're right actually, this whole thing is Ita getting back at Labor for winning the election by burying the ABC in lawsuits

Oh wait wasn't it the LNP that most recently sued "their own" ABC.....

Guilty by the people obviously

Just have to look through this entire thread and others on club boards and most posters are calling them guilty

 

[sr36]

And now Clarkson and Fagan are viewed by people as guilty before given the opportunity to prove innocence. By the way not all people accused of things want to go public. Some chose lawyers to fight for them the legal way.

What's the alternative? Should we stop the press from reporting on abuses of power because some people automatically assume guilt upon hearing an allegation?

 

[King Huskii]

What's the alternative? Should we stop the press from reporting on abuses of power because some people automatically assume guilt upon hearing an allegation?

No, the media have a right to report on current issues.

It's the way the acusers have gone about this. Remaining anonymous and going to the ABC instead of presenting to the AFL first. Then letting the AFL investigate and both parties use lawyers if necessary.

The ABC may have uncovered some evidence however nothing has been proven yet. In the mean time both Clarkson and Fagan have had their reputations damaged and have placed their new clubs in an awkward position.

I'm all for them being stood down if they are found guilty but the ABC have helped to ruin their reputation on some extremal distasteful and sensitive issues that they may be innocent of.

 

[sr36]

No, the media have a right to report on current issues.

It's the way the acusers have gone about this. Remaining anonymous and going to the ABC instead of presenting to the AFL first. Then letting the AFL investigate and both parties use lawyers if necessary.

The ABC may have uncovered some evidence however nothing has been proven yet. In the mean time both Clarkson and Fagan have had their reputations damaged and have placed their new clubs in an awkward position.

I'm all for them being stood down if they are found guilty but the ABC have helped to ruin their reputation on some extremal distasteful and sensitive issues that they may be innocent of.

They did tell a Hawthorn review first. But that's irrelevant to me.

As unfortunate as it is for Clarko and Fagan and the definitely innocent parties here, North and Brisbane, I think it's more important that we have a media who can and do report on abuses of power and ensure that those abuses are fully investigated. Rather than waiting for inquiries to occur before reporting on them.

The reality is that it is regularly the media who bring enough pressure to force a full inquiry.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Viewed guilty by who? They haven't been fired, so not their employers..



Multiple sources with similar stories + the emails that leaked + the Hawks assistant coach that came forward and verified some of the claims are enough to report allegations on without the fear of defamation lawsuits


Oh yeah you're right actually, this whole thing is Ita getting back at Labor for winning the election by burying the ABC in lawsuits

Oh wait wasn't it the LNP that most recently sued "their own" ABC.....

But but but they are criticising someone that looks like me and talks like me, hell, one day it could be me!

 

[Wosh]

Once again, this thread is for AFL related discussion on the Hawthorn racism review, not politics, not religion.
Those can be discussed on our dedicated SRP board

Society, Religion and Politics

A board for grown-ups.

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Del191229]

Seriously, we have to go through this again? It had been explained multiple times that Jackson gave several parties and clubs an opportunity to respond, including via email and phone and offering to extend the publication timeframe. None responded.

Oh, did he talk to other indigenous players who had been part of Clarkso/Fagan's teams but thrived did he? Or other coaches who had worked with Clarkson and Fagan? Or senior administrators?

It has been explained to you multiple times why Jackson did a poor job, but you don't want to engage with that as you made your mind up after reading the article.

And no, 24 hours isn't enough when making career threatening allegations from a leaked report where those making the claims are anonymous, and "offers of an extension" are childish crap, it isn't uni ffs.

Go back and look at the Latimore article and how many different voices he includes - that's journalism.

 

[Maddo11]

Oh, did he talk to other indigenous players who had been part of Clarkso/Fagan's teams but thrived did he? Or other coaches who had worked with Clarkson and Fagan? Or senior administrators?

It has been explained to you multiple times why Jackson did a poor job, but you don't want to engage with that as you made your mind up after reading the article.

And no, 24 hours isn't enough when making career threatening allegations from a leaked report where those making the claims are anonymous, and "offers of an extension" are childish crap, it isn't uni ffs.

He tried to contact newbold but the email got missed by "the media girl"

 

[Del191229]

Why didn't Jackson talk to Cyril Rioli, given his experiences kicked the whole review and story off?

Maybe Rioli would have told him stuff that didn't suit his pre-determined narrative?

 

[South of the Yarra]

There are people on this thread that should work o

So smug. They have access to any number of free legal services to assist them with claims of this type, they chose the media route. Their choice. You were previously falsely suggesting I was denying the players agency and they had a right to their own choices. Now you are criticising me for not understanding their life experiences and how this excuses their mistakes. Who is denying them agency now?

Yes, I'm a North supporter and I want this resolved. It seems to be only North supporters proposing avenues for resolution in this thread. Many others are simply trolling or offering empathy and debate but no route to a just outcome. The players have serious grievances which need to be dealt with by a proper and respected body. We all know the AFL are too compromised to run the investigation and manage its findings. But if the players don't take this elsewhere, that's what they'll get.

'They', 'they', 'Their', 'Their', 'Their'. 'Their', 'Them'
Nice persuasive technique of exclusive language to position the reader.

 

[gouki88]

Oh, did he talk to other indigenous players who had been part of Clarkso/Fagan's teams but thrived did he? Or other coaches who had worked with Clarkson and Fagan? Or senior administrators?

It has been explained to you multiple times why Jackson did a poor job, but you don't want to engage with that as you made your mind up after reading the article.

And no, 24 hours isn't enough when making career threatening allegations from a leaked report where those making the claims are anonymous, and "offers of an extension" are childish crap, it isn't uni ffs.

Go back and look at the Latimore article and how many different voices he includes - that's journalism.

The journalism that I like, that's journalism! Investigative journalism that hurts my club, that's poor journalism!

 

[gouki88]

Why didn't Jackson talk to Cyril Rioli, given his experiences kicked the whole review and story off?

Maybe Rioli would have told him stuff that didn't suit his pre-determined narrative?

Speaking on behalf of Rioli, are you? Seems to fit the bill of the people you're so eager to defend.

 

[Sentinel]

Why didn't Jackson talk to Cyril Rioli, given his experiences kicked the whole review and story off?

Maybe Rioli would have told him stuff that didn't suit his pre-determined narrative?

You don't know that. You also don't know if Jackson reached out to Rioli or not.

Even if it were the case, do you think it would invalidate the stories of the other three players interviewed? Impossible that one player's circumstances and experiences could be different from others, right?

 

[sr36]

Why didn't Jackson talk to Cyril Rioli, given his experiences kicked the whole review and story off?

Maybe Rioli would have told him stuff that didn't suit his pre-determined narrative?

What makes you think that he didn't talk to Cyril. You seem to be under the impression that he only spoke to three families. Surely with your extensive journalistic experience, you must know that not every conversation makes it to print.