NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

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Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


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[Elixuh]

Doesn’t the fact that it seems to have been leaked that Clarkson will be exonerated suggest that they think it will come to a meaningful conclusion? When as you say documents haven’t been produced and they haven’t been able to get to the bottom of things?

So the way things generally work is if you go through a process and can’t substantiate the allegations then by right the accused need to be exonerated. You can’t leave accusations open ended or unresolved.

And as I said it doesn’t prevent the complainants from brining action in another forum, which from the statement released by one of their lawyers last week seems to be their primary concern.

 

[Chief]

So in your mind the legal system works where the ones accused take the stand and defend themselves against nothing?

Legally they dont actually have to. The accusers do. If what they say is complete garbage the accused can stay quiet and let the case fall apart.

But yes, after the accusers take the stand as well as their mums and whoever else has been used as evidence in the Egan report and through all the other leaks through the media, the accused would then share their version.

So you're describing a sort of a legal process with rules of evidence and so on?

Intriguing! Do you think you should get in touch with someone about this new idea???

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

But all the damaging leaks against the accused were perfectly timed...

It needs to go to court and the accusers need to be put on the stand and told to tell the truth, then all of their claims can be fully tested. Anything else is a complete waste of time.

9 months later, when it’s just about run it’s course, Burt decides to hit the press and give Courtin another chance to throw some more fuel on the fire.

 

[blackshadow]

9 months later, when it’s just about run it’s course, Burt decides to hit the press and give Courtin another chance to throw some more fuel on the fire.

If Courtin is so confident why is she sabre-rattling in the media instead of filing paperwork to launch legal proceedings?

She's had more than ample time to file if she's serious about legal action.

 

[sr36]

If Courtin is so confident why is she sabre-rattling in the media instead of filing paperwork to launch legal proceedings?

She's had more than ample time to file if she's serious about legal action.

No one wants legal action - they want mediation.

 

[HairyO]

9 months later, when it’s just about run it’s course, Burt decides to hit the press and give Courtin another chance to throw some more fuel on the fire.

She has been commenting in the media for months. It took him 9 months to finally be sick of it and speaking out.

But sure, he is the bad guy here.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

She has been commenting in the media for months. It took him 9 months to finally be sick of it and speaking out.

But sure, he is the bad guy here.

Not saying he is the bad guy, but the timing is poor considering that everyone is trying to come to a resolution on this and he goes public right at this moment.

It’s incredibly bad timing, even if you ignore that his comments are a form of gaslighting.

 

[Elixuh]

Not saying he is the bad guy, but the timing is poor considering that everyone is trying to come to a resolution on this and he goes public right at this moment.

It’s incredibly bad timing, even if you ignore that his comments are a form of gaslighting.

They are no closer to a resolution. It is in a complete stalemate.

Replying to allegations (which many in this thread have been begging for) is gas lighting lol.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

They are no closer to a resolution. It is in a complete stalemate.

Replying to allegations (which many in this thread have been begging for) is gas lighting lol.

Do you even know what gaslighting is?

His comments were akin to “it happened, but not how you perceived it to.
I feel uncomfortable about it, it was over the top, but I have nothing to say sorry for.”

 

[Maxabillions]

So the way things generally work is if you go through a process and can’t substantiate the allegations then by right the accused need to be exonerated. You can’t leave accusations open ended or unresolved.

And as I said it doesn’t prevent the complainants from brining action in another forum, which from the statement released by one of their lawyers last week seems to be their primary concern.

I’m not sure that’s what exonerated means in this context? It’s a very strong term to use and I don’t think applies to what you’re describing.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

That is his version of events in response to the allegations.

Do you pull your footy socks up nice and high when admiring yourself in the mirror? Bringing gas lighting into this is just emotive nonsense.

Here’s the quick definition for you, seeing as you think it’s “just emotive nonsense”.

Psychologists use the term “gaslighting” to refer to a specific type of manipulation where the manipulator is trying to get someone else (or a group of people) to question their own reality, memory or perceptions.

This draws very real parallels to Burt’s comments regarding the players and how they perceived or felt about what took place and if you can’t see that you’re blind.

 

[r_boy]

They are no closer to a resolution. It is in a complete stalemate.

Replying to allegations (which many in this thread have been begging for) is gas lighting lol.

The equation as it stands is basically take the Hawks to court or get stuffed.

 

[Elixuh]

I’m not sure that’s what exonerated means in this context? It’s a very strong term to use and I don’t think applies to what you’re describing.

View attachment 1699583

Playing word games on a Monday morning is fun isn’t it.

You can call it whatever you want and describe it by whatever means you want. My point is that at some stage the independent inquiry will need to wrap up. As it stands it looks unlikely that the allegations will be able to be substantiated against the coaches. So call that whatever you want.

 

[Elixuh]

Here’s the quick definition for you, seeing as you think it’s “just emotive nonsense”.

Psychologists use the term “gaslighting” to refer to a specific type of manipulation where the manipulator is trying to get someone else (or a group of people) to question their own reality, memory or perceptions.

This draws very real parallels to Burt’s comments regarding the players and how they perceived or felt about what took place and if you can’t see that you’re blind.

So in your view any account that conflicts with your own personal sense of reality is gaslighting. Got it.

Why don’t you just say that!

 

[Sphynx]

In what world is it OK for a footy coach to turn up to your house to end a relationship?

It's as bad as a footy coach telling you to go see this doctor who is going to inject you with unknown but legit substances that is going to help you become a better player.

AFL football is not similar to the real world.

In what real world occupation would a 18 or 17 year old prospective employee go and live with the CEO or senior manager of a major commercial company?


It happens all the time in AFL football.

So it's easy to paint Clarkson and Fagan being inappropriate going to this persons house, but in isolation there's 100's of occurrences of strange things in AFL football when comparing it to real world employment.

Here's a simple one, would you think it appropriate for your employer to require you into the office for breakfast every morning, cook for you so they can control what you eat?

How about test your BMI and skinfolds every fortnight?

 

[sr36]

That is his version of events in response to the allegations.

The Zac and Kylie account was an interesting response. He didn't dispute their main claims. He didn't dispute that Zac was pulled into a meeting with the 3 Hawks and told he had to leave his pregnant fiance. He cuts straight from a discussion with Zac to the three Hawks managers rocking up to the house to help enact a break up. Doesn't mention what happened in between and how the coaches became involved. Didn't say that Zac agreed to these bizarre measures. He left it very open for Zac's story to be accurate. He didn't dispute it. Just mentions a discussion which would give motive to the coaches to behave inappropriately. Didn't do them any favours in terms of getting their story out there - if they actually did no wrong

 

[Elixuh]

The Zac and Kylie account was an interesting response. He didn't dispute their main claims. He didn't dispute that Zac was pulled into a meeting with the 3 Hawks and told he had to leave his pregnant fiance. He cuts straight from a discussion with Zac to the three Hawks managers rocking up to the house to help enact a break up. Doesn't mention what happened in between and how the coaches became involved. Didn't say that Zac agreed to these bizarre measures. He left it very open for Zac's story to be accurate. He didn't dispute it. Just mentions a discussion which would give motive to the coaches to behave inappropriately.

I think you can prove some or all of the factual circumstances and reach a conclusion that it was entirely inappropriate conduct in a workplace.

The critical question of whether the conduct was motivated by racism will be much more difficult (if not impossible) to prove.

 

[Maxabillions]

Playing word games on a Monday morning is fun isn’t it.

You can call it whatever you want and describe it by whatever means you want. My point is that at some stage the independent inquiry will need to wrap up. As it stands it looks unlikely that the allegations will be able to be substantiated against the coaches. So call that whatever you want.

Ok…

The meaning of terms are actually quite important in legal contexts.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

So in your view any account that conflicts with your own personal sense of reality is gaslighting. Got it.

Why don’t you just say that!

No, any account that says “yeah look that happened, but you’re wrong to perceive it that way” is gaslighting.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Your view is also reflective of something I can’t stand about modern society. As soon as something uncomfortable is raised, or something that conflicts with your own sense of reality or sense of right and wrong, you must immediately jump to label it so that it can be discredited. Rather than actually engaging with what was said in any meaninglful way.

It’s very lazy.

This might be the most unintentionally ironic post in this thread.

Kudos.

 

[JackOutback]

I think you can prove some or all of the factual circumstances and reach a conclusion that it was entirely inappropriate conduct in a workplace.

The critical question of whether the conduct was motivated by racism will be much more difficult (if not impossible) to prove.

I don't think that's the critical question at all... people can commit racist acts unintentionally through ignorance and lack of understanding. No one is accusing the trio of being card-carrying KKK members, they are being accused of (first) wholly inappropriate workplace conduct and (second) conduct more damaging to the players because of their Aboriginality and all the history associated with that.

 

[sr36]

I think you can prove some or all of the factual circumstances and reach a conclusion that it was entirely appropriate conduct in a workplace.

The critical question of whether the conduct was motivated by racism will be much more difficult (if not impossible) to prove.

Agree (assuming you meant inappropriate in the first sentence). The whole thing screams of inappropriate intrusive conduct from the Hawks. No idea how you'd then conclude racist behaviour or racial stereotyping.

3 managers rocking up to an employees house to make sure a break up occurs? WTF? Looking like there will be a significant payout and apology from the Hawks for that one at least.

 

[Elixuh]

Agree (assuming you meant inappropriate in the first sentence). The whole thing screams of inappropriate intrusive conduct from the Hawks. No idea how you'd then conclude racism or racial stereotyping.

3 managers rocking up to an employees house to make sure a break up occurs? WTF? Looking like there will be a significant payout and apology from the Hawks for that one at least.

Yeah sorry typing with one finger on phone while working lol meant inappropriate

I think it is also why the complainants are reportedly spending their energy on a civil claim against Hawthorn.

 

[r_boy]

Agree (assuming you meant inappropriate in the first sentence). The whole thing screams of inappropriate intrusive conduct from the Hawks. No idea how you'd then conclude racist behaviour or racial stereotyping.

3 managers rocking up to an employees house to make sure a break up occurs? WTF? Looking like there will be a significant payout and apology from the Hawks for that one at least.

They'll argue it was supportive in intent and it probably was as the bloke wanted to leave at the time and the whole thing was toxic (why were the medical records requested?).

As you say though there's clearly no race related issue here

 

[Rob R]

If Courtin is so confident why is she sabre-rattling in the media instead of filing paperwork to launch legal proceedings?

She's had more than ample time to file if she's serious about legal action.

Bluffing to get money rather than go through a civil trial which is the only way the truth (which is probably in the middle somewhere) will come out.

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