Heath Shaw V Bryce Gibbs

[Monkey King]

This still doesn't seem to explain why the 3 are being carried so easily by the Collingwood team

I haven't read the whole discussion, but I can't see anywhere in that post where BL suggested Shaw was being carried. In fact, he went out of his way to state he wasn't saying this type of thing, just that Shaw in his opinion, isn't as good as you think he is and that he thinks Gibbs is better. And tbh, anywhere off the HBF, Gibbs is a better player too.

I also don't rate Maxwell as much of a footballer. Put him in the Port Adelaide team and I'm sure your opinion of him would be a whole lot different. His AA was a great example of how the AA concept has almost become a team award these days.

 

[Gone Critical]

I haven't read the whole discussion, but I can't see anywhere in that post where BL suggested Shaw was being carried. In fact, he went out of his way to state he wasn't saying this type of thing, just that Shaw in his opinion, isn't as good as you think he is and that he thinks Gibbs is better. And tbh, anywhere off the HBF, Gibbs is a better player too.

Perhaps you should have then. So you know this is the post I initially responded to


"Shaw goes missing in games too often, once he is tagged he goes limp. Whereas gibbs has more roles and can play at either end and be damaging. Heath Shaw only has a few strings to his bow whereas gibbs has so many facets to his game.

I think the system mick malthouse played at collingwood made players look better than they really are. How often are collingwood defenders accountable for one man and dont receive help?......."

It was a post that only discussed Shaw in a negative sense. He clearly stated that Shaw as well as O'Brien and Maxwell were being carried by MM's system.

All I have done here is refute his idea that the 3 Collingwood players who have been the constant players of our defence (along with Toovey perhaps) over the last 3 years are where they are largely because of the system.

I haven't said anything about how good I think Shaw is in comparison to Gibbs so I am not sure why you have said that.

TBH can't remember how I voted and its closed now. Tend to agree with your original post in the poll that its tough. For the season coming off the HBF Shaw maybe but for the longterm I expect Gibbs to be the better player.

 

[Gone Critical]

I also don't rate Maxwell as much of a footballer. Put him in the Port Adelaide team and I'm sure your opinion of him would be a whole lot different. His AA was a great example of how the AA concept has almost become a team award these days.

Big Luch seems like a troll to me. Entered the debate with only negative comments about Shaw and unnecessarily dragged two of his teammates into the criticism. Maxwell is not rated by him, poor one on one defender, leadership skills are why he plays. Ignores any positive aspects he has as a player.

Surprised you have gone down the same track. You don't rate him is a pretty wishy washy stance. At least fill in some of the gaps.

Critic this assessment

Maxwell is a player who entered the system clearly on the low end of god given talent. He has become a good to very good player based on hard work, belief, courage, leadership and a lot of bloodymindedness. Because of the club he plays for , his at times in your face personality and his teams success he is disliked by a lot of the opposition football public.

He is no champion, not even near great but has left his mark. Never being dropped in a 159 career is a testament to his consistency and determination. While he can be suspect one on one due to lack of natural talent he has forged an effective role which requires a lot of backing into ongoing traffic etc. He can be a fericious tackler and hits the contest hard.

Perhaps his biggest attribute is the leadershilp he brings and ability to step up on big occasions as illustrated by 2 best finals player awards. His final Q in the drawn GF was a great example of a captain willing himself onto a contest in the biggest match of the year. His big mark and play on and running dive to cut off Reiwolts goal were match saving acts.

Maxwell has forged a substantial career out of not much at all. Whats not to rate about that.

 

[Monkey King]

Perhaps you should have then. So you know this is the post I initially responded to

A couple of points. Firstly, I still don't see where he said Shaw was being carried - can't take a tag and being helped by Collingwood's structure is what I read. Secondly, I didn't realise you were still responding to the original post rather than the one you quoted - in which the poster went out of his way to state he's not saying Shaw is a shit player; which is pretty much all I'm pointing out.

It was a post that only discussed Shaw in a negative sense. He clearly stated that Shaw as well as O'Brien and Maxwell were being carried by MM's system.

IMO he clearly stated they were being AIDED by MM's system, not carried by it. I think you've been a bit touchy in your interpretation and have carried that through to other posts not saying that.

I haven't said anything about how good I think Shaw is in comparison to Gibbs so I am not sure why you have said that.

I didn't. Jamie007 did. I just repeated that this is what he was saying, rather than the carried thing.

TBH can't remember how I voted and its closed now. Tend to agree with your original post in the poll that its tough. For the season coming off the HBF Shaw maybe but for the longterm I expect Gibbs to be the better player.

Yep. It's a tough poll. IMO Shaw is seriously one of the best rebounding HBF's in the league and he is no defensive mouse either. A really capable player who I would love at the Blues.

 

[Gone Critical]

A couple of points. Firstly, I still don't see where he said Shaw was being carried - can't take a tag and being helped by Collingwood's structure is what I read. Secondly, I didn't realise you were still responding to the original post rather than the one you quoted - in which the poster went out of his way to state he's not saying Shaw is a shit player; which is pretty much all I'm pointing out.



.

I'll give you the sum total of the quotes I can find from Big_Luch describing Shaw

"Shaw goes missing in games too often, once he is tagged he goes limp. Whereas gibbs has more roles and can play at either end and be damaging. Heath Shaw only has a few strings to his bow whereas gibbs has so many facets to his game.

I think the system mick malthouse played at collingwood made players look better than they really are. How often are collingwood defenders accountable for one man and dont receive help"

"I am saying individually as players they are not that good...so when comparing a gibbs to a shaw....i am saying gibbs is better....how hard is that to comprehend."

"Im not saying shaw is a crap player just not as good as you would believe and in my opinion nowhere near gibbs when the discussion is who would you rather have right now or even last season."

His biggest praise for Shaw was that he wasn't a crap player. Thats as far as he can go as a positive. If you don't like the word "carried" which I would take as a fair interpretation then can I summarise in something like his own words.

"Shaw isn't a shit player but he has a number of failings compared to Gibbs. Individually he is not that good but this is covered over by the system the Collingwood coach employs for his defence."

As you have said you think this is a tight poll. Big Luch could have contributed something positive re Shaw otherwise it sounds too much like a troll. Especially in his 1st posting where he drags Maxwell and O'Brien into the argument just to say he reckons they are no good. His 1st post lumped these 3 players together and had nothing positive to say about any of them.

 

[Gone Critical]

In fact, he went out of his way to state he wasn't saying this type of thing, just that Shaw in his opinion, isn't as good as you think he is and that he thinks Gibbs is better. .

I haven't said anything about how good I think Shaw is in comparison to Gibbs so I am not sure why you have said that.

I didn't. Jamie007 did. I just repeated that this is what he was saying, rather than the carried thing.

Sorry I haven't seen any posts by Jamie 007, where were they?

 

[toeknee2]

I didn't get to vote but I would have thrown another one on for Gibbs.... by the length of the Flemington straight.

Gibbs was a boy who grew into a man during the 2011 season. Towards the end of this year Gibbs officially became an AFL gun. Averaging 30+ high quality possessions per game and damaging the opposition left right and centre.
This was a poll of a very good small running backman vs a gun midfielder. No contest.

 

[Monkey King]

Critic this assessment

Maxwell is a player who entered the system clearly on the low end of god given talent. He has become a reasonable to good to very good player based on hard work, belief, courage, leadership and a lot of bloodymindedness. Because of the club he plays for , his at times in your face personality and his teams success he is disliked by a lot of the opposition football public. (see Vandernberg for how it seems people aren't fond of high profile captains low on talent)

He is no champion, not even near great but has left his mark. Never being dropped in a 159 career is a testament to his consistency and determination. While he can be suspect one on one due to lack of natural talent he has forged an effective role which requires a lot of backing into ongoing traffic etc. He can be a fericious tackler and hits the contest hard. Some creative liberty taken here. Maxwell is no harder than Bret Thornton IMO, in fact, Thornton might even be tougher.

Perhaps his biggest attribute is the leadershilp he brings and ability to step up on big occasions as illustrated by 2 best finals player awards. His final Q in the drawn GF was a great example of a captain willing himself onto a contest in the biggest match of the year. His big mark and play on and running dive to cut off Reiwolts goal were match saving acts.

Maxwell has forged a substantial career out of not much at all. Whats not to rate about that.

I don't necessarily disagree with much you've written (red I would omit; green I would add). Maxwell sounds like the kind of clubman all supporters appreciate, but those from other clubs others not so much.

Maxwell has forged a substantial career out of not much at all. Whats not to rate about that.

I'm not saying he's a terrible player. I just don't rate him that highly as a player and I'm sure if he had all those same attributes and played for Port, you probably wouldn't either. I don't rate Domenic Cassisi all that highly either and he's a club captain about to reach 200 games with, I'm sure, a tonne of similar good qualities.

 

[Monkey King]

Sorry I haven't seen any posts by Jamie 007, where were they?

Hahaha. Got my threads crossed. My bad!

BL is the man I'm talking about, but I suspect you knew that already.

 

[Monkey King]

... then can I summarise in something like his own words.

Nah! I'd probably go for something more like this ...

"Shaw isn't a shit player but he does struggle with a hard tag and has a number of limitations compared to Gibbs. Individually he is not as good as the Collingwood teams structure makes him appear to be and certainly not as good as Gibbs".

As you have said you think this is a tight poll. Big Luch could have contributed something positive re Shaw otherwise it sounds too much like a troll.

I'm not here to defend that poster or agree with him; I simply read your reply and it's accompanying quote and thought it odd, as you're normally fairly well reasoned, that you seemed to be replying to things not actually said.