Heath Shaw V Bryce Gibbs

[jonbe54]

DE seems to be a pretty flawed stat, Shaw's best attribute is his ability and willingness to run hard for his team mates. His disposal, while more than serviceable is nowhere near elite status, although it will be interesting to see how things pan out under Bux. Mick was determined to hug the boundary at all times and that will affect anyone's disposal. Bux is reportedly still keen on using the boundary line but much more open to using the corridor when the opportunity arises.

 

[DTShowtime]

Shaw's best attribute is his ability and willingness to run hard for his team mates.

His run & carry is an awesome skill-set but for me, his number 1 trait is his defensive skills. He is the type of defender that is never out of the contest & he has them looking over their shoulders, Gibbs simply doesn't have this in him.

[youtube]e3Ju7l3GhQs[/youtube]
[youtube]cixothjrZss[/youtube]

 

[CrimsonButterfly]

I would take Shaw with no questions asked.

 

[tonkapies]

You cannot be serious Judd, Ablett, Franklin, Pendles and Swan are close to the complete player Shaw isn't close to these great players.
Have an opinion but don't go overboard cause he wears black n white stripes.

In terms of what his complete potential is, Shaw would be pretty close to his peak output. Fitness, footy abilty, team focus, on feild leadership, his heritage. I can recall within the last 4 / 5 years , shaw has played to level where aa selection warranted, for various reasons injury, stupidity, ********s on selection panel, he did not get the nod.
But 5/6 players dont make a comp, i would say there would be 50 or so players who are at a level that commands respect. shaw is one, gibbs is not. He might in time, i have my doughts. Shaw is no judd, but , id take 2 shaws over one judd..

 

[robertg22]

Shaw's been great for us over the last few years and has definitely had more of an impact than Gibbs. Would definitely have been AA last year if not for his off field stupidity. Shaw is pigeon holed as a HBF though and I see Gibbs being more versatile in being able to move into the middle and even into the forward line. Gibbs should improve over the next couple of seasons and overtake Shaw, he definitely has the talent.
But it's Shaw so far.

 

[Krooooze]

I would take Shaw with no questions asked.

Well I'll ask you a question.

Did you enjoy that match-winning, 4-goal performance from Gibbs against your boys last year?

 

[Bardo State]

Shaw in a heartbeat. A better rebounder and better defensively. At his best he is elite in his position.

Gibbs has potential, but his year was similar to that of Liam Shiels and often over-rated.

 

[Monkey King]

Gibbs has potential, but his year was similar to that of Liam Shiels and often over-rated.

Gibbs kicked twice as many goals as Shiels and had more diverse roles, including a couple of decent accountable midfield jobs on Pendlebury, Moloney and Goodes. He's better overhead and has better disposal to boot. Shit! No wonder you think he's overrated if you believe this is a genuine comparison. Fortunately, most others have been paying closer attention.

 

[Bardo State]

Gibbs kicked twice as many goals as Shiels and had more diverse roles, including a couple of decent accountable midfield jobs on Pendlebury, Moloney and Goodes. He's better overhead and has better disposal to boot. Shit! No wonder you think he's overrated if you believe this is a genuine comparison. Fortunately, most others have been paying closer attention.

Yeh Gibbs was better. The comment probably came from some frustration from the fact that Shiels is so under-rated, which didn't have a place in this thread.

However they were statistically very similar last year.

http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web...4&year1=2011&tid2=103&pid2=2007028&year2=2011

This is probably somewhat due to defensive roles that Gibbs was assigned to.

Gibbs had an advantage in marks, rebound 50s and he hit the scoreboard more. Shiels had an advantage in tackles, clearances, first possesions, 1%ers.

I agree that Gibbs is an all round better player but their seasons were not worlds apart.

 

[Monkey King]

Yeh Gibbs was better. The comment probably came from some frustration from the fact that Shiels is so under-rated, which didn't have a place in this thread.

While I agree that Shiels is underrated in general, he does get his kudos from those who really pay attention. Don't worry mate, a couple more seasons will see him get wider recognition.

However they were statistically very similar last year.

http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web...4&year1=2011&tid2=103&pid2=2007028&year2=2011

This is probably somewhat due to defensive roles that Gibbs was assigned to.

Gibbs had an advantage in marks, rebound 50s and he hit the scoreboard more. Shiels had an advantage in tackles, clearances, first possesions, 1%ers.

I agree that Gibbs is an all round better player but their seasons were not worlds apart.

Stats are stats, not performances. Even so, according to official AFL stats, clearances and tackles are about the only clear edge Shiels has (Gibbs negligibly averaged more 1%'ers).

I don't know about their seasons being worlds apart, but Gibbs' was clearly better IMO, which is why your comments surprised me. Can't wait to see what he does this year, as his last month of footy was outstanding.

 

[robertg22]

Shiels has nothing to do with the thread fellas.

 

[Big_Luch]

Shaw goes missing in games too often, once he is tagged he goes limp. Whereas gibbs has more roles and can play at either end and be damaging. Heath Shaw only has a few strings to his bow whereas gibbs has so many facets to his game.

I think the system mick malthouse played at collingwood made players look better than they really are. How often are collingwood defenders accountable for one man and dont receive help? Harry Obrien and Nick Maxwell rely on third men up to help them constantly. Need to remove the team they play in element and judge them on their own (as much as possible). Hence gibbs is a much better and more complete player even at this stage of his career.

 

[Gone Critical]

Shaw goes missing in games too often, once he is tagged he goes limp. Whereas gibbs has more roles and can play at either end and be damaging. Heath Shaw only has a few strings to his bow whereas gibbs has so many facets to his game.

I think the system mick malthouse played at collingwood made players look better than they really are. How often are collingwood defenders accountable for one man and dont receive help? Harry Obrien and Nick Maxwell rely on third men up to help them constantly. Need to remove the team they play in element and judge them on their own (as much as possible). Hence gibbs is a much better and more complete player even at this stage of his career.

I love this chain of thought. Collingwood defenders look better than they are, they aren't accountable for their man and receive help. Presumably the help isn't coming from others defenders as they are the overrated ones.

Or are there a few Collingwood defenders who are actually doing their own work plus covering for their overrated mates so should be receiving more accolades than they currently get? If so who are those defenders? Alternatively is it the gun midfielders who are doing their own work plus picking up the slack for the defenders in a way other teams midfielders are not called on to do?

Or is it that old chesnut that MM had a gameplan that pushed a team of hacks into success their natural talents so clearly didn't deserve. No players are stepping up, its just a formidible game plan that answers all the questions.

God knows how you will explain any Collingwood success in 2012

 

[smiddaz123]

haha, collingwood players are all over rated because they zone off their man and affect other contests. some people are seriously special.

 

[raskolnikov]

I can't believe that Gibbs is winning this poll. I would take Shaw without hesitation. Gun.

Gibbs is a tad overrated.

 

[raskolnikov]

Well I'll ask you a question.

Did you enjoy that match-winning, 4-goal performance from Gibbs against your boys last year?

Kyle Reimers kicked eight last year. Must be twice as good as Gibbs.

 

[Big_Luch]

I love this chain of thought. Collingwood defenders look better than they are, they aren't accountable for their man and receive help. Presumably the help isn't coming from others defenders as they are the overrated ones.

Or are there a few Collingwood defenders who are actually doing their own work plus covering for their overrated mates so should be receiving more accolades than they currently get? If so who are those defenders? Alternatively is it the gun midfielders who are doing their own work plus picking up the slack for the defenders in a way other teams midfielders are not called on to do?

Or is it that old chesnut that MM had a gameplan that pushed a team of hacks into success their natural talents so clearly didn't deserve. No players are stepping up, its just a formidible game plan that answers all the questions.

God knows how you will explain any Collingwood success in 2012

So could Fasolo do what he did last year....in...lets say Port Adelaides team?, thats essentially what you are trying to say... You are delluded if you dont think your system contributes massively to your success. Aren't teams now taking harry O and Maxwell into positions where they have to defend a man???suggesting they arent that good one on one.

No need to go on the complete defensive. Collingwoods a great team who play as a team...but we are debating the individual here...not the team.

 

[Big Bryza]

You have no clue Big Luch so give it a rest champ.

 

[Gone Critical]

So could Fasolo do what he did last year....in...lets say Port Adelaides team?, thats essentially what you are trying to say... You are delluded if you dont think your system contributes massively to your success. Aren't teams now taking harry O and Maxwell into positions where they have to defend a man???suggesting they arent that good one on one.

No need to go on the complete defensive. Collingwoods a great team who play as a team...but we are debating the individual here...not the team.

Lets not back track here. Don't bring a 1st year player like Fasalo into this debate. Stick with the individuals you have named. Your initial statement said

"I think the system mick malthouse played at collingwood made players look better than they really are."

You went on and named 2 AA defenders (Maxwell and O'Brien) as well as Shaw who has been near that level and was tracking for AA in 2011 when he was suspended.

So we take the 3 major players of Collingwoods defence in the last 3 seasons and say they really aren't that good and are helped massively by the system MM created. This is the defence that in 2011 was the least scored against and in 2010 and 2009 only the miserly St Kilda had less points kicked against them.

Surely it cant be the just gameplan thats the whole answer here. Remember the 3 you have named have been the constants of Collingwoods defence in the last 3 seasons. Others have come and gone a bit. You have named our backbone. O'Brien has been top 10 in the B&F 5 seasons running now (3rd and 5th best results) as well as AA. Maxwell AA, 2nd in B&F 2009 plus mult top 10's, best finals players 2010. Shaw 3rd in B&F etc.

There must be someone else in the Collingwood defence who is carrying these 3 not just the game plan. Just flesh that out a little for me. I am interested in your explanation

 

[jonbe54]

His run & carry is an awesome skill-set but for me, his number 1 trait is his defensive skills. He is the type of defender that is never out of the contest & he has them looking over their shoulders, Gibbs simply doesn't have this in him.

[youtube]e3Ju7l3GhQs[/youtube]
[youtube]cixothjrZss[/youtube]

I don't doubt or deny his defensive skills DT but I consider his willingness and ability to run and carry a huge plus for team structures.

 

[Big_Luch]

Lets not back track here. Don't bring a 1st year player like Fasalo into this debate. Stick with the individuals you have named. Your initial statement said

"I think the system mick malthouse played at collingwood made players look better than they really are."

You went on and named 2 AA defenders (Maxwell and O'Brien) as well as Shaw who has been near that level and was tracking for AA in 2011 when he was suspended.

So we take the 3 major players of Collingwoods defence in the last 3 seasons and say they really aren't that good and are helped massively by the system MM created. This is the defence that in 2011 was the least scored against and in 2010 and 2009 only the miserly St Kilda had less points kicked against them.

Surely it cant be the just gameplan thats the whole answer here. Remember the 3 you have named have been the constants of Collingwoods defence in the last 3 seasons. Others have come and gone a bit. You have named our backbone. O'Brien has been top 10 in the B&F 5 seasons running now (3rd and 5th best results) as well as AA. Maxwell AA, 2nd in B&F 2009 plus mult top 10's, best finals players 2010. Shaw 3rd in B&F etc.

There must be someone else in the Collingwood defence who is carrying these 3 not just the game plan. Just flesh that out a little for me. I am interested in your explanation

Nick Maxwell is a prime example of my point of a player being made better by the system....as an individual, he is not rated that highly as a footballer by many, skills wise and as a one on one defender he is pretty poor (obvious leadership skills etc are why he plays - not doubting that). I am saying individually as players they are not that good...so when comparing a gibbs to a shaw....i am saying gibbs is better....how hard is that to comprehend.

Once again I will say...rate the individual not the team that the player plays in when doing a poll of player V player. I think collingwood are a great team so stop putting words in my mouth saying that i think they are crap and that it was all malthouse. The defensive UNIT is great...not so much as individual defenders (i rate all your defenders very highly with exception of Harry O and Maxwell - thats my opinion but not he point im making here).

 

[Gone Critical]

The defensive UNIT is great...not so much as individual defenders (i rate all your defenders very highly with exception of Harry O and Maxwell - thats my opinion but not he point im making here).

Thats my problem. Collingwood have arguably the best defensive unit in the AFL over the last 3 seasons. If not the best then 2nd best. There are 3 players over that time who are constant and have been the cornerstone of the group. Shaw, Maxwell and O'Brien. Yet these are the guys you don't rate. Above you say you rate some unmentioned Collingwood defenders very highly. Who are they? Possibly Toovey as he is probably the most constant member of our defence in recent years after the 3 players you don't rate.

 

[Gone Critical]

Nick Maxwell is a prime example of my point of a player being made better by the system....as an individual, he is not rated that highly as a footballer by many, skills wise and as a one on one defender he is pretty poor (obvious leadership skills etc are why he plays - not doubting that).

Give you an example of a player

159 games since he was 1st selected. Never ever dropped from the senior team. Thats uncommon. Players of the ilk of Waite , Russell, Robinson, Scotland, Yarran etc have had to go back to the 2's. Often as well established senior players. Very few establish themselves in the team from day 1

Best clubman 3x, leading the desire indicators 3x, best finals player 2x, 2nd B&F 2009, multiple top 10 finishes in B&F (took Jonno Brown 7 seasons to crack the top 10 in Brisbanes B&F). Premiership captain. All Australain 2009. Leader , Captain now for the 4th season. Without his final Q in the drawn GF 2010 St K are probably premiers.

Thats Nick Maxwell by the way

He is not a champion but he is a very good footballer, rated very highly by Mick Malthouse the supposed architect of the system that has kept Maxwells failings from being exposed

You may say he is not "that highly rated as a footballer by many". Fortunately it is not the ones who count or understand footy who are amongst that group

Nick Maxwell would get a game without any trouble at every AFL club, bar none

 

[Big_Luch]

Thats my problem. Collingwood have arguably the best defensive unit in the AFL over the last 3 seasons. If not the best then 2nd best. There are 3 players over that time who are constant and have been the cornerstone of the group. Shaw, Maxwell and O'Brien. Yet these are the guys you don't rate. Above you say you rate some unmentioned Collingwood defenders very highly. Who are they? Possibly Toovey as he is probably the most constant member of our defence in recent years after the 3 players you don't rate.

Reid - for his age he is a very very good defender and will only get better
Brown - As above
Tarrant - with those guns doesnt surprise me fwds struggle to kick goals on him
Toovey - highly under rated, just does everything very well.
Davis - run off half back was very important to your team last year.

Im not saying shaw is a crap player just not as good as you would believe and in my opinion nowhere near gibbs when the discussion is who would you rather have right now or even last season.

 

[Gone Critical]

Reid - for his age he is a very very good defender and will only get better
Brown - As above
Tarrant - with those guns doesnt surprise me fwds struggle to kick goals on him
Toovey - highly under rated, just does everything very well.
Davis - run off half back was very important to your team last year.

Im not saying shaw is a crap player just not as good as you would believe and in my opinion nowhere near gibbs when the discussion is who would you rather have right now or even last season.

So these are the guys holding the Collingwood defence together in the last 3 years

Reid- Great young player , 2009 nothing to speak of, established himself in 2010 when Maxwell, O'Brien and Shaw took him under their wing and showed him the ropes so to speak and had a breakout season in 2011. Of the ones you have named he has made the biggest contribution to Collingwoods defence in recent seasons after the 3 players you reckon are being carried.

Nathan Brown - great debut in 2008 but has struggled to hold down a position in the team through form issues and injury in the last 3 years. Only 27 games out of a possible 75 in the last 3 years so approximately 1 in 3 games. Hard to believe he is the one covering for the inadequate 3.

Tarrant - Very good in 2011 but hasn't carried the 3 prior to this. Need to look elsewhere to solve who has given the 3 an armchair ride

Toovs- Love him to death but i had to laugh when you present him as an underrated topline defender yet Maxwell, Harry and Shaw are being carried by the team structure

Davis - See Tarrant

This still doesn't seem to explain why the 3 are being carried so easily by the Collingwood team