Hird or Kernahan?

[Gone Critical]

Also in the 1986 'Battle of the Premiers' Hawks got up by 2 points over Subiaco.
This was an exhibition match, but my memory of it is that people got into it as it was the best of the best..

In recent times and AFL club would annihilate a WAFL or SANFL club.
Things were different in the 80s, people forget or choose to forget or they just were not around

You are being selective here

VFL in the 1980s was littered with the best players from SA/WA and Tassie. It was the dominant competition. In SOO the locals went back to their own states and WA and SA were more fanatical about those games anyway.

Post season exhibitions were far from serious games

 

[westbrom]

Actually I am not being selective at all, I just picked a year that Sticks played and there was mention of Sticks' 10 goals, this was 1984 and I was able to find those players listed. By all means grab another one of those years and show me the team lists. I hate no other years lists to go off and in fact picked a game Vic won.

Btw, this is just a discussion around the value of Sticks games for Glenelg and saying they are of at least a comparable worth. I would suggest most players played in the SANFL, not the VFL in SoO carnivals, i could be wrong, but I believe in the early 80s this was true... any SA posters have info on this? The fact he kicked 10 goals against the Vics not being enough to show what his actually quality was in those days and that his numbers would have been significantly higher if he crossed as an 18 yo


I am Vic through and through, but not ignorant enough to believe that the other leagues were not quality league, nor arrogant enough to think the VFL was of a standard untouchable by other leagues...

No doubt many here believe the Saints could have switched leagues and just won the flag each year during this period.

 

[Corrosion]

Firstly, why are we comparing a phenomenal CHF to a phenomenal mid-fielder?

Greg Williams Vs James Hird would be a better comparison.

Dermie Vs Sticks being the other comparison.

Defies belief how people compare players in completely different positions in polls on this board.

 

[Monkey King]

Carey and Dermie.

Now before you go off on your little rant.

It is my opinion and I am sure yours is different, but nothing you can say will ever make me rate Kernahan in front of Dermie.

Fair enough if you rate Dermie better; he was after all a truly great player and the only CHF of the last 30 odd years that can match Sticks for finals performance. Sticks has the better individual record though IMO, so obviously my rating differs from yours. Nothing wrong with that.

My disagreement with Carey is obviously not one of talent, but of era; he just wasn't around when Sticks was dominating CHF and by the time he came on to the scene Sticks was 30yo and playing deeper forward more permanently. Just doesn't come into the equation IMO.

I mean you would argue that Scott Russell is a better footballer than Johnny Platted such is the level of Carlton bias.

Call bias all you like - Sticks really was a champion CHF, so I think that's a little weak tbh - but Scott Russell wtf Do you mean Craig Bradley? And if you do, that would be a pretty bloody good poll in itself. Two SA rippers.

 

[Monkey King]

The fact he kicked 10 goals against the Vics not being enough to show what his actually quality was in those days and that his numbers would have been significantly higher if he crossed as an 18 yo

If genuinely assessing Kernahan's football career, you just can't overlook his SANFL record. The fact he intentionally held off making the shift until he helped Glenelg win a flag shows the terrific character he offered his football clubs as well. He was already well and truly kicking as a player by the time he came to this league and his loyalty to Glenelg shouldn't count against him. Not that Hird suffers in any way when it comes to this either. Both great captains and club men.

 

[Gone Critical]

Actually I am not being selective at all, I just picked a year that Sticks played and there was mention of Sticks' 10 goals, this was 1984 and I was able to find those players listed. By all means grab another one of those years and show me the team lists. I hate no other years lists to go off and in fact picked a game Vic won.

Btw, this is just a discussion around the value of Sticks games for Glenelg and saying they are of at least a comparable worth. I would suggest most players played in the SANFL, not the VFL in SoO carnivals, i could be wrong, but I believe in the early 80s this was true... any SA posters have info on this? The fact he kicked 10 goals against the Vics not being enough to show what his actually quality was in those days and that his numbers would have been significantly higher if he crossed as an 18 yo


I am Vic through and through, but not ignorant enough to believe that the other leagues were not quality league, nor arrogant enough to think the VFL was of a standard untouchable by other leagues...

No doubt many here believe the Saints could have switched leagues and just won the flag each year during this period.

I am not questioning Sticks 10 gaol haul, I watched the match he was fantastic. More the idea that the SANFL or WAFL was as strong as the VFL in their regular seasons. The VFL drew on the biggest pool of players given the Victorian population, paid the bigger money and picked the eyes out of both the WAFLs and SANFLs best players. Pre SOO the Victorian side was full of the best WA and SA players playing against their own states. The VFL was well in the ascendancy by the 80's and had been for a long time.

If you went back to the early 60's and before then you might have a better argument. There were far fewer interstate players in the VFL and even some of our best players left their VFL teams in their prime to play in the bush on better money e.g Stewart Spencer Clarence, Bobby Rose Wangaratta.

Once the money ramped up in the VFL from the late 60's the real pillage of the other states began. Mind you in those days you could get Royce Harts signature for half a dozen shirts

 

[raskolnikov]

This:

[YOUTUBE]E6XpjJ-yQlA[/YOUTUBE]

vs


This

[YOUTUBE]bUhhHA-AJvc[/YOUTUBE]

I know which one I would take.

 

[westbrom]

oh Noddy...
You take Hird's most famous moment and one of Stick's worst and use that as your basis of proof that Hird is better than Sticks. That is about the laziest attempt at proving a point as you can make.

For the records that was close to the best quarter of football I have seen from a footballer ever, but that is not relevant to the better careers, which I have said I won't even attempt to separate.

Btw, using kicking a clutch goal as reasoning is a bit silly, because there is no doubt that Kernahan kicked the "Captain's Goal" more often, he was in fact renowned for lifting the Blues in that manner.... But a Carlton supporter

using that would be no more valid than what you have done above because Hirdy was far more versatile and so was not in the position as often to do that.

@Gone Critical
I think you are undermining the quality of those leagues to suggest they weren't comparable. They would not come close now, but early 80s I would have thought they were right up there and a hell of a lot of SA/WA players didn't come across to the VFL and easily could have done so and been dominant players here. Having a handful cross over weakens there leagues a little, but the vast majority stayed and it is really quite ridiculous to think that just because a handful switched codes for cash that it meant that their leagues were not still very strong, especially as the majority of players still stayed.

 

[Hodgepodge]

This was not the case as much in the early 80s

Michael Aish, Neil Craig, Stephen Kernahan, Greg Phillips, Mark Williams, Garry McIntosh, and John Platten are the only players I can find that played in 1984.

Add Motley, Craig Bradley to that as well.

Greg Phillips finished his career here and Williams had already played 100 games in the SANFL. In those days the SA team was dominated by SANFL players.

The top end talent still found its way here quite early. Craig Bradley, John Platten and Steve Kernahan the pick of that lot.

Also in the 1986 'Battle of the Premiers' Hawks got up by 2 points over Subiaco.
This was an exhibition match, but my memory of it is that people got into it as it was the best of the best..

Doesn't really prove much. The club world cup should be dominated by european clubs each year yet the south american teams regularly take it home despite the lesser players.

 

[willoblue]

ok

how many will vote Kernahan in the top 3 of greatest players they have ever seen?

how about Hird?

Hird would win that poll by lots I think.

that is what swung it for me (& Carlton are my 2nd best team!)

 

[westbrom]

ok

how many will vote Kernahan in the top 3 of greatest players they have ever seen?

how about Hird?

Neither would get many votes from anyone over 30.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Of course Noddy wouldn't mention that Sticks kicked the winning goal the following weeks vs Hawthorn to make up for that miss vs Essendon.

This after the siren goal brought Carlton a premiership according to experts who believe the week rest in a scorching September was the difference.

[YOUTUBE]_tTowiTUgaQ[/YOUTUBE]


As a 17-18 year old in a pretty strong SANFL comp.

[YOUTUBE]GgTAm2WjQWU[/YOUTUBE]

10 goals in a SOO match as a 20 year old is no mean feat either just quietly. He wasn't exactly up against chumps.

 

[willoblue]

Neither would get many votes from anyone over 30.

I'm 44 and Hird gets in, or at least close

 

[westbrom]

I'm 44 and Hird gets in, or at least close

Hence I didn't say no one would select him. But for me there have been a number of better players and in fact 'the 3' most often quoted in recent years as the best ever are the same 3 for me in "Ablett/Carey/Matthews" and to me they are a fair way ahead of the pack. I would have thought if there was a poll of twenty top players and everyone had to chose their top 3, that those 3 would be comprehensively the best, the only exception being that younger people never seen the best of Ablett or seen Lethal at all.

With players like the following all in that next bracket (yes I have missed some players there) of absolutely elite footballers, but a level below those 3.
That is just my opinion and no doubt someone will use this as an excuse to pick holes in that list, but it isn't meant to be comprehensive.

Riccuito, Voss, SOS, Sticks, Kouta, Buckley, Hird, Fletcher, Watson, Pav (?), Quinlan, Dermie, Dunstall, Platten, Hocking, Ablett Jnr, Flower, Wilson, Glendenning, Blight, Martyn (don't laugh), Lockett, Harvey, Reiwoldt, Goodes, Cousins, Judd, Matera

 

[willoblue]

Hence I didn't say no one would select him. But for me there have been a number of better players and in fact 'the 3' most often quoted in recent years as the best ever are the same 3 for me in "Ablett/Carey/Matthews" and to me they are a fair way ahead of the pack. I would have thought if there was a poll of twenty top players and everyone had to chose their top 3, that those 3 would be comprehensively the best, the only exception being that younger people never seen the best of Ablett or seen Lethal at all.

With players like the following all in that next bracket (yes I have missed some players there) of absolutely elite footballers, but a level below those 3.
That is just my opinion and no doubt someone will use this as an excuse to pick holes in that list, but it isn't meant to be comprehensive.

Riccuito, Voss, SOS, Sticks, Kouta, Buckley, Hird, Fletcher, Watson, Pav (?), Quinlan, Dermie, Dunstall, Platten, Hocking, Ablett Jnr, Flower, Wilson, Glendenning, Blight, Martyn (don't laugh), Lockett, Harvey, Reiwoldt, Goodes, Cousins, Judd, Matera

more than Martyn made me laugh, but all at least very good players

 

[Gone Critical]

@Gone Critical
I think you are undermining the quality of those leagues to suggest they weren't comparable. They would not come close now, but early 80s I would have thought they were right up there and a hell of a lot of SA/WA players didn't come across to the VFL and easily could have done so and been dominant players here. Having a handful cross over weakens there leagues a little, but the vast majority stayed and it is really quite ridiculous to think that just because a handful switched codes for cash that it meant that their leagues were not still very strong, especially as the majority of players still stayed.

I don't think I am. Victoria had the biggest pool of players, as they do today. Just look at how each year Victorians numerically dominate each draft. Our U18 teams divide into metro and country to cater for or bigger numbers. These same differentials applied in the 80's

What you may be failing to remember is how many interstate players were in VFL sides at the time. I have had a look at the GF sides of 1984 the year in question. Hawthorn had 6 of their 20 who were interstate players, over 30%, ( Colin Robertson, Rodney Eade, Ken Judge, Ian Paton, Michael Byrne and Rod Lester-Smith), Essendon had 5 so 25% (Paul Weston, Billy Duckworth, Leon Baker, Terry Daniher(probably should be considered within the Vic system though) and Frank Dunell.

The VFL looted the other states in those days and it was more than a handful of players that crossed over from the SANFL/WAFL. You are tecnically right saying the majority of SANFL players stayed home but the majority were not being sought. It was the cream that left and in substantial numbers. It was newsworthy when a star stayed home because the majority who were sought went. Aish, McIntosh and Stephen Michael were the exceptions at the time. This is why the VFL dominated even prior to the national comp. We were being substantially aided by our interstate recruits

You may also remember the SANFL and WAFL teams as well as rep teams from the other states playing in the VFL night series in late 70's and 80's. It may not have been taken completely seriously by the VFL teams but over about 10 years the SANFL and WAFL teams were routinely dominated by the VFL teams. On the odd occasion one of them got to the semis but none ever made the final.

 

[pacman]

Merritt and Stoneham are clearly downgrades although I think you are being harsh on Grant. Sticks sits well with Dermie and Daniher also as a great KPF of his era but a bit behind the big group of Dunstall, Lockett, Carey and Ablett

Tough on Kernahan & Brereton considering the bolded four are usually rated in the top 10 players EVER, not just in that era.
In regards to the poll I can't split them.

 

[Gone Critical]

Tough on Kernahan & Brereton considering the bolded four are usually rated in the top 10 players EVER, not just in that era.
In regards to the poll I can't split them.

Yeah thats fair comment. More I consider it it is hard to split them. I was looking for a point of difference but it may have been harsh on Sticks

 

[Happy Mastenator]

more than Martyn made me laugh, but all at least very good players

You pick out Cousins, yet more AA's, a MVP, and more individual awards than Hirdy. Not trying to argue he's the equal of Hirdy but he can be in that group without doubt.

Take your Freo blinkers off.

 

[Monkey King]

Tough on Kernahan & Brereton considering the bolded four are usually rated in the top 10 players EVER, not just in that era.
In regards to the poll I can't split them.

This is what I think too. Hird was no better than those players either, so that it supposedly counts against one, but not the other, is a pretty strange concept; particularly when Carey was more from Hird's era than Kernahan's anyway.

 

[Monkey King]

I'm 44 and Hird gets in, or at least close

Wow! Hird was a great player and I rate him very highly, but his stocks have risen unbelievably since retirement, while others have drifted. Would probably be somewhere between 10-20 for mine.

 

[Gone Critical]

This is what I think too. Hird was no better than those players either, so that it supposedly counts against one, but not the other, is a pretty strange concept; particularly when Carey was more from Hird's era than Kernahan's anyway.

Maybe I could have articulated it better but I guess I was thinking along the lines that Sticks as good as he was was probably never considered to be amongst the top 2 or 3 players of his era. There was a group ahead of him and another group around him. Maybe his feats get a bit lost because of the company he kept. He palyed in an era kind to key forwards and there were a lot of very good ones.

Hird in his day, an era of the midfielders dominating, was for many seasons a candidate for the best current player.

It was a thought that I am happy to reconsider. My gut feel still says Hird.The difference I mentioned is a bit flawed because of those 4 greats I named.

 

[toeknee2]

Firstly, why are we comparing a phenomenal CHF to a phenomenal mid-fielder?

Greg Williams Vs James Hird would be a better comparison.

Dermie Vs Sticks being the other comparison.

Defies belief how people compare players in completely different positions in polls on this board.

When I set up this poll a few days ago the idea was to compare leaders or "captains". The two players are very highly regarded and considered all time greats by their clubs but i was interested in what the other fans thought of the two.
I wouldn't compare their abilities, they play two different positions.

From a personal point of view I wouldn't swap Kernahan for Hird in a million years.

 

[Monkey King]

Maybe his feats get a bit lost because of the company he kept.

I think this and a couple of other reasons contributes to an underrating of his achievements. I'm kind of stuck here myself, as when I look at their records from 18yo onwards, I find it very hard to go past Sticks; but if you had me compile a ratings list of footballers I've seen, I'd most likely have Hird ahead of Kernahan by a clear margin. Perhaps it's my bias shining through, as I feel Sticks the player is pretty badly underrated on BF, while Hird tends to be overrated, as good as he was. (top 3 players ever comment is my perfect example).

I don't let the best player of his era thing come into it too much though, as I just don't think it rates as a method of player assessment, but I do appreciate your point that sometimes you really have to search for reasons to create distinction in these polls. Sticks would probably be the best CHF if he played today, but essentially, the player is who he is regardless of other players running around at the time. Throw Carey, Lockett and Ablett into any era and most every player would slide down a notch or two.

The difference I mentioned is a bit flawed because of those 4 greats I named.

It wasn't just you who mentioned it, donbooger also parroted this sentiment and said Sticks was never even top tier in his position. Between guys who didn't play his position and others who played his position after he'd moved from it, I just find the argument doesn't hold a lot of water.

 

[Monkey King]

When I set up this poll a few days ago the idea was to compare leaders or "captains".

I couldn't split them. As I pointed out earlier, Sticks loyalty to Glenelg was enormous. May never have even made the shift to our league had they not won a flag.

Hird is a Donner through and through and you can tell he bleeds for the club. Both these guys were terrific captains and onfield leaders and both have taken up the call for their club in tough times once their playing days ended.