NO TROLLS Homophobia in the AFL - 4 Corners

[Toump Ass]

Are you sure they didnt?

The articles I've read on the 1992 Dream Team only mention Australian Officials threatening to boycott, and note that other countries showed support for the Americans in the wake of these threats.

Clearly a few other posters here are a bit more knowledgeable on the boycott threats than me, so maybe someone else can answer this.

Yeh im not sure we were more hysterical than any other country

Show me an article that says other countries gave a toss about competing against HIV-positive players.

If i recall correctly Australia was pretty leading edge.

Yeah I wouldn't really use "leading edge" to describe Australia in anything really.
Circling back to discrimination America had openly gay politicians in the 70s, legalised same sex marriage a bit earlier than we did.

One random basketballer might not be quite the sample size you think.

According to others here, it wasn't one basketball player, it was a few.
Articles I read said it was Olympic officials.

Whoever it was, they seemingly made a bit of a fuss about it.

 

[phantom13]

The articles I've read on the 1992 Dream Team only mention Australian Officials threatening to boycott, and note that other countries showed support for the Americans in the wake of these threats.

Clearly a few other posters here are a bit more knowledgeable on the boycott threats than me, so maybe someone else can answer this.


Show me an article that says other countries gave a toss about competing against HIV-positive players.


Yeah I wouldn't really use "leading edge" to describe Australia in anything really.
Circling back to discrimination America had openly gay politicians in the 70s, legalised same sex marriage a bit earlier than we did.


According to others here, it wasn't one basketball player, it was a few.
Articles I read said it was Olympic officials.

Whoever it was, they seemingly made a bit of a fuss about it.

My point is that you’re using this one isolated incident (which you’ve admitted you don’t know that much about) to make the assertion that all of Australia was behind on the Aids epidemic. Every single country worldwide had all sorts of mass hysteria and misinformation, the US being one of the absolute worst.

Aus absolutely had a number of backwards policies about a stack of stuff. The aids crisis just wasn’t one of them.

 

[apollo_creed]

Akermanis comes across as a complete DH in that program.

In referencing his ' stay in the closet' article-
" If you dont like what I said go get counseling"

FMD.

Akermanis is a complete DH.

 

[Bluelegs]

So why didn't every country sook about Magic Johnson? Just Australia.

Assume this is the incident you're talking about

SYDNEY -- Australian government and sports officials are playing catch-up ball, scrambling to contain the public relations disaster sparked when two Australian basketball players said last week they would refuse to play in any Olympic game that included Magic Johnson, who is HIV-positive.

Basketball Australia, the governing body for professionals and amateurs, immediately sprang into a full-court press to limit the damage. The organization announced that Johnson had accepted its invitation to tour Australia, although it remains unclear whether he will play basketball here.

"Our invitation was essentially a sincere gesture to demonstrate that the remarks made have not been representative of Australians, sports lovers or the rest of the national team," said Executive Director David Woolley. "I think all the other team members are as distressed as the population is."

Among the most distressed in Australian officialdom is Bruce Baird, the New South Wales minister for transport who is leading Sydney's bid for the 2000 Olympic Games.

"These comments were not helpful to our bid," Baird said. "We were clearly embarrassed by them and we wish they were never said. Magic Johnson is very welcome to come to New South Wales and welcome to play basketball here. We know that he is regarded as a hero in {America}."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1992/02/04/australia-stirred-by-hiv-issue/3173fdd9-074e-48f7-ae68-7e2ac9a6df1c/

Probably unfair to say that two players and a medical director saying shit that caused a national embarrassment is reflective of the whole country. Johnson is on the record saying he enjoyed his time in Australia.

 

[tandino]

While we are off track, the 30 for 30 documentary on Magic Johnson is well worth a watch. There's another one on NASCAR driver Tim Richmond, who sadly died of AIDS, I'd recommend highly as well.

 

[Toump Ass]

My point is that you’re using this one isolated incident (which you’ve admitted you don’t know that much about) to make the assertion that all of Australia was behind on the Aids epidemic.

My point isn't that Australia was behind on the AIDS epidemic. My point is that Australia is a bit behind.

You're right I'm not super knowledgeable about Australia's boycott- I'm not a huge NBA fan sorry. But as far as I can tell, no other country except ours sooked about getting AIDS from Magic Johsnon, and despite asking for evidence of other countries sooking about it... no one's found any.

AIDS was seen as a gay disease, do you think maybe the Boomers were scared about catching Gay? Would have been as likely as catching AIDS.

 

[Toump Ass]

Probably unfair to say that two players and a medical director saying s**t that caused a national embarrassment is reflective of the whole country.

Did I?

While we are off track, the 30 for 30 documentary on Magic Johnson is well worth a watch. There's another one on NASCAR driver Tim Richmond, who sadly died of AIDS, I'd recommend highly as well.

Ric Flair doco very very nice too

 

[phantom13]

My point isn't that Australia was behind on the AIDS epidemic. My point is that Australia is a bit behind.

You're right I'm not super knowledgeable about Australia's boycott- I'm not a huge NBA fan sorry. But as far as I can tell, no other country except ours sooked about getting AIDS from Magic Johsnon, and despite asking for evidence of other countries sooking about it... no one's found any.

AIDS was seen as a gay disease, do you think maybe the Boomers were scared about catching Gay? Would have been as likely as catching AIDS.

I think in 92, most of the world was.

We as a country actually managed to push past the misinformation more swiftly than most.


As for Johnson.

The Orlando Sentinel published a survey Jan. 19 in which 62% of its callers said they were against Johnson’s playing in the All-Star game in Orlando, Fla., on Feb. 9. The call-in survey received 4,751 calls, the largest response for any sports issue, a Sentinel editor said.

Magic's Decision to Play Continues to Spur Controversy : Pro basketball: Readers surveyed in Orlando are against his All-Star participation.

Magic Johnson's appearance in the NBA All-Star game and the Summer Olympics has spurred varying opinions in the last 10 days, casting the onetime Laker great in a controversial light.

www.latimes.com

That the first google result and if you go to the second one on “magic Johnson player boycott” you’ll actually see that the AOC refused to allow players to boycott the 92 games and it doesn’t sound like it was many.

 

[Bluelegs]

Did I?

Off-topic, but I found out recently that Australian officials threatened to boycott games involving Magic Johnson at the 1992 Olympics because Andrew Gaze didn't want AIDS.

30 years ago, I know, but it did make me think about what a bunch of backward *in' yokels we really are sometimes.

So why didn't every country sook about Magic Johnson? Just Australia.

Of course, my point is Australia was just a little bit more hysterical than others, a little less civilized.

You don't think these comments might read as sweeping generalisations?

 

[Gough]

You don't think these comments might read as sweeping generalisations?

Straight people in general were pretty ignorant about HIV in the early 90s.

 

[00Stinger]

My point isn't that Australia was behind on the AIDS epidemic. My point is that Australia is a bit behind.

You're right I'm not super knowledgeable about Australia's boycott- I'm not a huge NBA fan sorry. But as far as I can tell, no other country except ours sooked about getting AIDS from Magic Johsnon, and despite asking for evidence of other countries sooking about it... no one's found any.

AIDS was seen as a gay disease, do you think maybe the Boomers were scared about catching Gay? Would have been as likely as catching AIDS.

Even though you could be right, you are starting to jump at some big assumptions on an event that you openly admitted you don't know much about. And tbf neither do I

For one, I don't think that Magic Johnson was ever assumed to being gay in the first place. So not sure the players were trying to not catch 'gay'

I would assume it would be very similar to the pandemic a few years ago. There would have been a player or players refusing to play against someone with covid (maybe not the best example as it was probably more contagious but defiantly less deadly)

A lot of people get very insular and go into self protection mode when they think there could be 0.00001% chance of getting harmed themselves. Same people will sit back and watch some one get assaulted or even worse rather than helping if they think they could get endangered. IK think they are shit people though

 

[Gough]

Even though you could be right, you are starting to jump at some big assumptions on an event that you openly admitted you don't know much about. And tbf neither do I

For one, I don't think that Magic Johnson was ever assumed to being gay in the first place. So not sure the players were trying to not catch 'gay'

I would assume it would be very similar to the pandemic a few years ago. There would have been a player or players refusing to play against someone with covid (maybe not the best example as it was probably more contagious but defiantly less deadly)

A lot of people get very insular and go into self protection mode when they think there could be 0.00001% chance of getting harmed themselves. Same people will sit back and watch some one get assaulted or even worse rather than helping if they think they could get endangered. IK think they are s**t people though

The whole shock about Johnson was he was really the first high profile person to announce they had HIV and that it was caught through heterosexual sex which was a game changer at the time.

 

[Black Panther]

 

[Toump Ass]

You don't think these comments might read as sweeping generalisations?

As someone pointed it out already, homosexuality was illegal in Tassie in the 1990s. That's not that long ago for me. Same Sex Marriage legalised years after other countries. Been turning a blind eye to indigenous issues for way too long. Drug prohibition ridiculous.

I'll happily stand by the comment that Australia, sometimes, is a very backwards country. We got a long way to go still I think.

 

[Toump Ass]

Even though you could be right, you are starting to jump at some big assumptions on an event that you openly admitted you don't know much about. And tbf neither do I

Is it an assumption to say that the reaction to Magic Johnson playing was a little bit hysterical? Seems to me it was, that's just my opinion though.

It was well established at the time AIDS wasn't transmissible via sweat, see Charles Barkley's comments on it.

 

[Bluelegs]

As someone pointed it out already, homosexuality was illegal in Tassie in the 1990s. That's not that long ago for me. Same Sex Marriage legalised years after other countries. Been turning a blind eye to indigenous issues for way too long. Drug prohibition ridiculous.

I'll happily stand by the comment that Australia, sometimes, is a very backwards country. We got a long way to go still I think.

You've pivoted onto some very different issues than the topic that we were actually discussing. Not going to argue Australia has a way to go on many issues. But happy to leave the discussion about HIV there.

 

[00Stinger]

The whole shock about Johnson was he was really the first high profile person to announce they had HIV and that it was caught through heterosexual sex which was a game changer at the time.

Yeah ok makes sense

 

[notliondown]

Genuine question. What is it the AFL needs to be doing? What specific actions?

That's exactly the question that this show should have forced the AFL and the clubs to ask themselves. It's obviously hard to know what happens inside clubs now but lets start with

- a zero tolerance to any word or inference that refers to sexuality, in the same way that we have done with first nations people. And I mean zero. Call out players, staff and officials. A person who struggles with their identity is more at risk than even our Aboriginal brothers and sisters in the sense that sometimes the shame they feel is so internalised that the slightest reference to weakness or femininity is compounded. First nations people can't hide who they are, gay people are often forced to and to carry that burden alone. It's terrifying and dangerous.

- a zero tolerance spectator policy for people that use homophobic slurs either at games, or on social media. Club and AFL membership bans should be enforced as they are with other groups. Removal from grounds should be the same.

- a pride round. Again, like we have for women, for first nations. Not a token game, a round. And promote it with the same fervor they do with other marginalized groups.

- appoint a player or official at each club as a liaison or public spokesperson to openly talk about the issue. I find it incredibly hard to believe that if an official position was created that there wouldn't be an ally in each club willing to take that role in an official position.

I'm sure there is more - and without knowing what the official policy or even govt legislation is in this space it's hard to know whether the AFL even complies with it's own rules.

For me the issue is not the acceptance of gay players within the club or playing group. I'm sure that already happens. The issue is creating a public space that ensures safety.

The first player to do this will know the risks. What he needs to be assured of is that his well-being is not some tokenistic talkfest and that he will be genuinely supported on his journey.

The first will be the bravest and will pave the road for others... but they will watch every action and reaction very closely to figure out whether the actions match the words.

 

[notliondown]

View attachment 1782268

You realise people are allowed to learn and grow right?

 

[Toump Ass]

You've pivoted onto some very different issues than the topic that we were actually discussing. Not going to argue Australia has a way to go on many issues. But happy to leave the discussion about HIV there.

Australia’s public health policies 30 years ago wasn’t really where I saw that one going sorry

 

[Big Animal]

seeing a few comments saying that the AFL is not doing enough or implementing enough policies.

You do know that there is also an AFLW right?
You do know that a majority of the players are in same sex relationships or same sex attracted?
You do know that they don't feel in any way inhibited with that?
That they bring their partners along to games, club run events, fairest and bests, league wide fairest and best, get all their photos taken, etc?
I spend time with the girls from one of the clubs and I've seen nothing or heard anything to suggest they are not fully 100% supported in their same sex relationships.
That all the many AFLW games I have been to have also been a LGBTQi catchup amongst the local social groups and friends.
The AFL supports all of this and particularly in the clubs I see locally and from inside.
They have a Pride round out of only 10. They have special jumpers for that. They were all over the gay marriage law changes.

The AFL would do more than just about any other organisation in the country in this space. What else are they meant to do?

Because no bloke wants to be the first named and at the mercy of 200+ AFL media stalking them and staking out their homes for months on end? Think you'll find the gay players are 99% concerned about the media and have little concern for the AFL, their club, or their football careers. I'm sure their team mates know or have a fair idea already.

 

[rapidfire7]

Its amazing how all the straight players can so comfortably share their lives including their families and partners lives in social media, take them along on Brownlow night etc.

Who do you think is responsible for gay players not bringing their partners along to such events?

I highly doubt anyone would object if they did, other than a few online trolls maybe. In fact, they would be lauded from all sections of the media for their 'bravery'.

And maybe that is part of the problem. Coming out would mean they would be thrust into the lime light, whether they wanted to be or not. If we just acted like it was no big deal, that is the true sign of acceptance from where I stand.

 

[rapidfire7]

As a gay man it does not surprise me - if a player did come out, what abuse would he cop?

I am still reluctant to come out at work or hold my partners hand/kiss him in public - we have been hassled just sitting together.

I also think about what happened to Ian Roberts - it is 2023 but I'm not sure australians ready to see 2 men kissing (as a player and his wife do).

What specifically do you think can be done to change more attitudes?

Do you think there will ever be a time when it is almost universally accepted?

 

[Dazzler9]

That's exactly the question that this show should have forced the AFL and the clubs to ask themselves. It's obviously hard to know what happens inside clubs now but lets start with

- a zero tolerance to any word or inference that refers to sexuality, in the same way that we have done with first nations people. And I mean zero. Call out players, staff and officials. A person who struggles with their identity is more at risk than even our Aboriginal brothers and sisters in the sense that sometimes the shame they feel is so internalised that the slightest reference to weakness or femininity is compounded. First nations people can't hide who they are, gay people are often forced to and to carry that burden alone. It's terrifying and dangerous.

- a zero tolerance spectator policy for people that use homophobic slurs either at games, or on social media. Club and AFL membership bans should be enforced as they are with other groups. Removal from grounds should be the same.

- a pride round. Again, like we have for women, for first nations. Not a token game, a round. And promote it with the same fervor they do with other marginalized groups.

- appoint a player or official at each club as a liaison or public spokesperson to openly talk about the issue. I find it incredibly hard to believe that if an official position was created that there wouldn't be an ally in each club willing to take that role in an official position.

I'm sure there is more - and without knowing what the official policy or even govt legislation is in this space it's hard to know whether the AFL even complies with it's own rules.

For me the issue is not the acceptance of gay players within the club or playing group. I'm sure that already happens. The issue is creating a public space that ensures safety.

The first player to do this will know the risks. What he needs to be assured of is that his well-being is not some tokenistic talkfest and that he will be genuinely supported on his journey.

The first will be the bravest and will pave the road for others... but they will watch every action and reaction very closely to figure out whether the actions match the words.

I'm onboard with your first two dot points. As for the pride round, I'd fear that we might get a similar outcome to the NRL, with some players speaking out against it based on their dubious religious beliefs.

 

[rapidfire7]

You know why? Because like I said, he was still a person who was attracted to girls!

It's easier socially to be lesbian/a former hetero male, than a gay male. Seriously.

It is easier to be a former hetero male than to be a gay male? What an absurd generalisation to make