GenericUsername202
Club Legend
Look at Fagan since leaving Hawthorn and look at Clarkson since fagan left. There's your answer.
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Opinion How much of Alistair Clarkson's success at Hawthorn was actually due to Chris Fagan
- Thread starter Bucking Bronco
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- Oct 5, 2023
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Nope. Hawks peaked and drooped off it happens. Players left like Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis. And you can't compare coaching North to the hawks. No chance.
Leuy LongerCombo
Club Legend
You’ve been painting a picture of being gifted early draft picks, I was stating that we traded basically all of our above average talent in the prime of their careers to rejuvenate the list with those selection. I can’t think of anyone else doing similar to that same extent with players in that 27-30y.o range during a rebuild. This was a huge part of the current list build that is often not mentioned by non supporters, it’s easy just to state exclusive access to f/s and academy players.
Again underplaying the achievement, like it was a rite of passage for us to win in the grand final. 2003 a 12 point loss, 2005 a 4 point loss, 2006 a 1 point loss, Hawks did have a similar turn around in one of those.
A bit of revisionist history with the misfits vs elites comments. You were the best team all year and the rightful favourites heading in, again underplaying Fagans contribution to the game and ultimately season.
You have a game style that others have found hard to compete against. We pulled it apart in the season, you adjusted in the qualifier. Fagan made a heap of adjustments, that you may not be interested in hearing and won the convincingly on the back of those decisions. The side are evenly matched on paper really, can’t put that victory down to talent alone.
Fagan developed a contested game style to get us competitive, he re-fined this after it just didn’t stack up against the likes of the Cats, Tigers and Demons. Added contested marking with ball users and pace behind the ball. This year a really refined ball movement to mask over our KPF deficiencies, with a competitive edge on contested possession against most teams. He has continually developed and refined the game plan.
Fagan doesn’t get nearly enough recognition for his tactical nous, stating talent alone is just lazy analysis
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Let’s chat the bolded because I showed your current list and it’s for all to see how many are trade in academy/FS or early picks. It’s whopping, don’t really care how many players walked out to get them at the time.
So it’s not misfits Vs the elites??
Our current list is chocked full of rookies, international cat B, and late picks. It’s something that resembles a bottom 4 list more than a grand finalist. Here you go for your own education:
2025 Geelong Grand Final 23
| # | Player | Confirmed Acquisition Method / Notes |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | C. O’Sullivan | National Draft (pick #11 in 2023) |
| 2 | S. De Koning | National Draft (pick #19 in 2019) |
| 3 | J. Henry | — |
| J. Henry | rookie pick | |
| 5 | M. O’Connor | Category B / zone / international signing |
| 6 | Z. Guthrie | Rookie list elevation / original rookie path |
| 7 | L. Humphries | pick 70 |
| 8 | G. Miers | Draft (pick #57 in 2017) |
| 9 | M. Holmes | Draft (pick #20 in 2020) Wikipedia |
| 10 | O. Dempsey | Rookie list / SSP / rookie pathway |
| 11 | B. Close | Rookie list / original rookie pathway |
| 12 | S. Mannagh | pick 38 |
| 13 | T. Stengle | Delisted Free Agent / DFA signing |
| 14 | S. Neale | Draft (pick #33, 2020) |
| 15 | J. Cameron | Trade (from GWS) |
| 16 | P. Dangerfield | Trade from Adelaide in 2015 |
| 17 | R. Stanley | Trade (from St Kilda) |
| 18 | B. Smith | Trade (to Geelong in 2024) |
| 19 | T. Atkins | Rookie list / elevation |
| 20 | M. Blicavs | cat B rookie |
| 21 | J. Martin | Delisted Free Agent / DFA signing |
| 22 | O. Mullin | Category B (international) |
| 23 | J. Clark | Draft (pick #8 in 2022) |
So that is 10 players either via the rookie list or delisted free agency in our 2025 grand final side. That is unheard of.
Being able to develop and coach that geelong side to a grand final week is freakish, Brisbane being able to coach a team full of top ten picks, elite father sons, and chocked full of exclusive academy picks + trades… is just what you expect of a premiership list to look like.
There is no way fagan would have even made the top 8 with our current geelong list let alone a grand final
PaulTergeist
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No doubt that Clarkson was terrific at Hawthorn but also had a stable of quality assistants beside him who have gone on to great things themselves.
Leuy LongerCombo
Club Legend
The list you provided we had 5/6 traded player playing, of which Ah Chee and Fort were basically token trades. None of the free agent played, with 3/4 of them not even on our list. We played 4/8 academy players of which Marshall the rookie was the highest taken at pick 25. The we were missing 1 of the 5 highly rated player you mentioned.
I don’t particularly care where ours or your players went in the draft, that becomes somewhat irrelevant once their AFL careers start. Your late talent identification and development has been outstanding for a long period of time.
Your top end talent this year of Jezza, Danger, Holmes, Smith, Dempsey rivals nearly every other teams. You’re also a very physically matured team, while we have highly rated youth, often on the day performance favours the maturity over talent.
Go ahead and create a combined team with the selected Grand Finals players, I think you’ll find that the actually talent on the day was extremely close, not the gulf you’re trying to paint with your posting in this thread.
This is clearly a coping mechanism or justification for supporters. No doubt you haven’t watched any post match analysis (and reasonably so) but Fagan got a lot of applause for his tactical changes.
Junction Lion
Senior List
Fagan’s effort to win the premiership was phenomenal. I think you will find most of the football industry will agree. Tough draw. 5 or 6 top 23 players out with injury. 8 players 22 and under. Geelong firm favourites.
Fagan has done a remarkable job and looks to have a far better relationship with his players than Scott.
Scott was outcoached on the day.
I think Fagan's role in the Hawthorn premierships is a fair point to raise. But sometimes the game simply moves past even the best coaches, and I think that's what's happened to Clarkson.
Not going to go over lists again as it’s there for all to see the difference in talent handed to the both of the coaches. One didn’t even have a right to make finals let alone a grand final with that sort of list makeup, where as the other is obviously chocked full of talent the moment the players walked in the door by brisbanes list.
Of cause it’s important, tactically one side had to be coached to near perfection strategically and list management wise to make it, the other just had immense talent.
If you can show me another grand finalist made up of 50% rookies and cat B’s beating a side filled with top end academy early picks and father son talent in a grand final ( or even making it will be a start.. or even making top four) then we can start discussing tactics.
It’s a lot simpler to coach a more talented team to a win against a lesser talented team.
As Nathan Buckley has often put it on SEN, Scott is just the best tactical coach in the game
Leuy LongerCombo
Club Legend
While the player origins may be different, the actual talents on the day was comparable, you can’t deny that.
Scott walked into a premiership contender and got to hone his coaching on the run. He’s had the perfect opportunity for continual succession planning and development. Fagan basically turned a club around.
Buckley was one of the biggest praiser for Fagan, stating how much he actually out coached Scott on Saturday.
Chip Scab1
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As a footballer, certainly. Ratten was your best player there for a bit, Kouta and others got the media, but Ratts was a mighty player and definitely better than most, including the little, slow #23 at Norf.
But you were talking Coaching, and no, maybe Ratts had some old heads in there leading by example. Clarko however, is on his way to #5,6,7 at Norf, don't you worry about that.
EXACTLY!
Fagan likes to 'coach' from the boundary line but who is REALLY up in the coaches box calling the shots?!
NOBODY KNOWS!
Could it be Clarkson?!
Piggy Smalls
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100%
Fages can coach. And the Lions are a damn good side. But they have gotten the rub of the green on pretty much every one of the AFL's 'quirks' that go against true equalisation. It's a ridiculous academy and F/S haul. Apart from Walker and 0 gamer Jarren Carr, I can't think of a single other academy or F/S at Fremantle.
Ironically, both Jaspa Fletcher and Ed Allen's fathers captained our club too.
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Who did he say this too?
Scott wasn’t handed a premiership list he was handed an old side that lost a prelim by 8 goals and then lost Garry ablett jnr with no inclusions that off season and coached the team to a flag. What dream succession run?? Having 11 rookies in your b22?? He has had crap picks to work with and a few trades and free agents.
Fagan has been benefited on every imaginable front- trades, early picks, free agency, academies and F/S, better than any other side in the league. It is a very east side to coach to success with the formula.
And I disagree they were evenly matched, not even close. Scott just coached tactically that team so well and developed them that he was able to get 100% out of them and even paper over some huge cracks to achieve a grand final appearance which probably wouldn’t happen with most other coaches and that list.
Brisbane has owned geelong probably for 2 years now. You have beaten us 4/5 of the last encounters. The only outlier was the first final when you guys had a poor game. Agajn, it’s easier to coach a more talented side than a poorer one. I am assuming you also think fagan was a tactical winner when you smashed GCS or even freo?? Or how about Carlton??
Again, one side shouldn’t have even made the top 8 based on list profile, the other is a genuinely gifted side with how elite the acquisition make up is. And yes it does matter a lot if you are trying to compare two coaches as they have to develop and get the best out of them and it varies depending on what you have to work with how far you can get your squad.
Getting geelongs squad to a grand final was a miracle to be frank
We have all worked in workplaces where reputations don't match contributions and the AFL industry is no different. Some people are in the right place at the right time.
I suspect Clarkson from a coaching perspective deserves the credit but he did have a good team. Likewise as good a coach as Fagan is, he does have a gun team but if course he did help build it.
Hardwick is a coaching legend but without Dusty he probably doesn't win one premiership.
I just think in the AFL there is alot of right place and right time scenarios.
I suspect Clarkson from a coaching perspective deserves the credit but he did have a good team. Likewise as good a coach as Fagan is, he does have a gun team but if course he did help build it.
Hardwick is a coaching legend but without Dusty he probably doesn't win one premiership.
I just think in the AFL there is alot of right place and right time scenarios.
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Leuy LongerCombo
Club Legend
C’mon aging list, that was premiership worthy !!! He was handed Milburn, Scarlett, Mooney, Ottens, Woj and Lings as 30+, Enright, Chapman, Corey, Hunt, Pod as 29y.o, Johnson, Bartel, Kelly, Lonergan as 27y.o, Mackie, Stokes, Taylor as 23/24 and young players like Varcoe, Selwood, Hawkins, Duncan, Christian, Motlop.
The fact you lost Ablett, just shows how crazy talented that squad was previously. That team would have more talent than any team that Fagan has had to work with.
The succession planning was referring how you’ve been able to add low rated players into a system. Take your Key Position Defender for example, they go from having them simply contribute to ultimately take over from the champions. We’ve seen it with Taylor learning from Scarlett, Stewart learning from Taylor, now we’re seeing Sullivan learning from Stewart.
Fagan has tactically put a side together to beat certain teams, building a list is part of a coaches role yes ? Why should be judged negatively against him ?
He has managed all the player and environment to put us in a position to be attractive option, shouldn’t he also be judged positively on that ?
He plays the rookies early, should their development be reflective of Fagan coaching decisions ?
Beng tactical is one aspect of coaching, I don’t rate him as the best tactical coach, however I think he is grossly underrated in this aspect.
Again with the gift terminology. I showed the major contribution to our current drafting profile was losing Redden, Rockliff, Hanley, Beams, McStay and yet you want to happily dismiss that. This big Academy advantage, we’ve been in a natural position every draft to take these players around their pick. Our Trading has been decent but not out of this world good, especially comparing that to the likes of Cameron, Danger, Smith etc. We have been gifted with FS, headlined by Will, absolutely no arguing there. Fletcher was available around our natural pick, being only 3 spots off where he was taken. Levi will be another gift, but hardly a needle mover in this premiership. But hey Geelong know a thing or two about being gifted Father Sons also.
Again draft position isnt 100% reflective of talent after development.
Who are you choosing to win a game tomorrow Blicavs or Reid (GC), Henry or Gardiner, Dempsey or Ah Chee, Mannagh or Levi Ashcroft, Stengle or Charlie, Jhye Clark or Lester, Sullivan or Andrews. Draft position becomes irrelevant after development. But keep beating this drum you were lucky to be in the finals, let alone the Grand Final.
You keep stating how much drafting talent we have, when was the last time a premiership team had 8 players under 22 ? Doesn’t that alone provide coaching difficulties?
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Fagan routinely outcoached Clarkson early on. It wasn't until Mitchell came on board that was turned around. Fagan recently though has turned this around again. Not coach of the year for nothing.
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Brett Ratten went 0-10 at North as caretaker coach.
As bad as Clarkson is, 16% is still a lot better than 0%
Always suspected the angry midget was a fraud and someone else was the mastermind coach.
WesternSydneyHawk
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- Mar 19, 2023
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I raised a similar point in another thread.
And it wasn't just Chris Fagan that Clarko had working for him during the 2008–2015 era.
He had Graham Wright as a list manager.
He also had Damien Hardwick, Luke Beveridge, Adam Simpson, Leon Cameron, Brett Ratten, and Brendon Bolton as his assistant coaches. On top of Chris Fagan!
He had Sam Mitchell and Luke Hodge as his onfield leaders. Even once they were cooked, West Coast and Brisbane picked them up as on-field coaches.
Clarko was coaching a forward line that included the likes of Buddy Franklin, Jack Gunston, Luke Breust, Jarryd Roughead, Cyril Rioli, and Paul Puopolo.
Clarko had a talented and versatile ruckman in Ben McEvoy, tapping to a midfield that (alongside Hodge and Mitchell) had Jordan Lewis, Shaun Burgoyne, Isaac Smith, Brad Hill, and until 2008, Shane Crawford.
And Clarko had the likes of Brian Lake, Josh Gibson, Ben Stratton, and Grant Birchall in his back line.
Most of the players I just mentioned would've been walk-up starts for best 22 at pretty much every other club at the time.
Now, noone is arguing Clarko didn't earn his success.
But at the same time, just look at the assistant coaches he was working with, and the naturally talented players he was working with.
And the players who left (Franklin, Smith) or stayed on after Clarko's departure (Gunston, Breust) have clearly shown they don't need Clarko's tactics to be great footballers.
It certainly wasn't exactly all down to just Clarko being a gigabrain supergenius tactician.
And it wasn't just Chris Fagan that Clarko had working for him during the 2008–2015 era.
He had Graham Wright as a list manager.
He also had Damien Hardwick, Luke Beveridge, Adam Simpson, Leon Cameron, Brett Ratten, and Brendon Bolton as his assistant coaches. On top of Chris Fagan!
He had Sam Mitchell and Luke Hodge as his onfield leaders. Even once they were cooked, West Coast and Brisbane picked them up as on-field coaches.
Clarko was coaching a forward line that included the likes of Buddy Franklin, Jack Gunston, Luke Breust, Jarryd Roughead, Cyril Rioli, and Paul Puopolo.
Clarko had a talented and versatile ruckman in Ben McEvoy, tapping to a midfield that (alongside Hodge and Mitchell) had Jordan Lewis, Shaun Burgoyne, Isaac Smith, Brad Hill, and until 2008, Shane Crawford.
And Clarko had the likes of Brian Lake, Josh Gibson, Ben Stratton, and Grant Birchall in his back line.
Most of the players I just mentioned would've been walk-up starts for best 22 at pretty much every other club at the time.
Now, noone is arguing Clarko didn't earn his success.
But at the same time, just look at the assistant coaches he was working with, and the naturally talented players he was working with.
And the players who left (Franklin, Smith) or stayed on after Clarko's departure (Gunston, Breust) have clearly shown they don't need Clarko's tactics to be great footballers.
It certainly wasn't exactly all down to just Clarko being a gigabrain supergenius tactician.
Not sure that (bolded) applies to 2008.
Few coaches revolutionise the game - Clarko has fair claims to that with the implementation of his zone defence which is almost universal now.
