Opinion How to Build a Forward Line

[Bring back Drum]

Because he was sh*t, the game had passed him by, he was failing at developing our young players, and he was a prick.

Since you asked.

This ain’t a Lyon thread, but Wigarus needs to start talking to people at the club, because he was/is an absolute campaigner.

 

[theGav56]

Some key points I think need to be made on the topic of how to build a forward line that are possibly relevant:

(1) There are different kinds of forward line strategies; some of the more recent winning ones have relied on one tall forward (sometimes not totally dominant) which is a different perspective to a traditional theory which insists you need at least 2 tall (whatever that means relative to the time of day) forwards who kick a lot of the goals. Examples arguably include the Sydney (2012 - Reid as the only permanent tall with Goodes a mid/forward), Hawthorn premiership sides (2014, 2015 - Gunston as a sort of tall with Roughead as a utility ruck / forward), the Western Bulldog side (2016, Boyd as a utility ruck / forward and Zaine Cordy as a medium forward) and Richmond (2017, Riewoldt and Josh Caddy as a medium). We also arguably got pretty close in 2013 with such a forward setup (arguably Bradley going down masks that a little when looked across the whole season). A lot of the discussion revolves around (the lack of) finding a key forward over that time from 2013 or whenever, but from what I understand from Longmuir (and perhaps Lyon before him), he is not looking for a traditional forward line but one of these more "modern" forward lines. From a recruiting this perspective, this further emphasizes the primacy of recruiting "the best available" at all available points in time and further reduces the emphasis for recruiting on finding a good tall forward with early picks, which has been hard to pick and identified industry wide as a "recruiting officer killer". I get the impression that Longmuir would be fine with a spine of Taberner and Sturt, with a ruck (Lobb, Meek or Darcy) also down there. The issue is to have that kind of setup you need to have the players behind them that can very efficiently and effectively deliver the ball; we have continuously chosen a lot of midfielders and half backs (arguably Brayshaw, Giro, Acres, Blakely, Conca, Hughes, Pearce, Hamling) that struggle to effectively deliver the ball into that forward line.

(2) From a spectator perspective, there is a lot of focus on finding "the players locked in" for the best 22 (indeed we have a long standing thread on the matter), but ultimately in real life it is also about the backups / players that are coming through and the spread of experience. Currently there are a lot of injuries which mean that many of our first 6 forwards are not available; the additional spread of experience means that what we have in reserve is very inexperienced; Henry, Western and Fredderick (I see him as a forward) and even Crowden, Switowski and Shultz are relatively inexperienced players who will find themselves surrounded by inexperience, Meek (if he plays there in the weeks to come) also has very little AFL experience, and Treacy if he comes in after suspension has no experience. Walters, Taberner and Lobb are the only experienced forwards, and two of them spend a lot of time outside of the forward line anyway these days. On the other hand we have gotten rid of a heap of players who have a medium level of experience in Matera, Kersten, McCarthy and Hogan in recent years without replacing that experience in some form. We need these guys to get experience, but we also need to bring in more young forwards to sit in reserve as well.

I’d love to see an unorthodox but winning approach to the forward line, but I suspect that we look like playing 4 talls in defence is a ‘tell’ for what we want to do forward.

 

[theGav56]

Because he was sh*t, the game had passed him by, he was failing at developing our young players, and he was a prick.

Since you asked.

Yes he asked, but.... Really like to keep this stuff out of the thread guys.

 

[salim malik]

This ain’t a Lyon thread, but Wigarus needs to start talking to people at the club, because he was/is an absolute campaigner.

That's bullshit, players loved Lyon .
Slackers were called out , they became the backstabbers.

 

[Bring back Drum]

That's bullshit, players loved Lyon .
Slackers were called out , they became the backstabbers.

Not talking about the players, but not all players loved him, that’s for sure. & a club is more than the players.

 

[MadMundy]

We've been burner by forwards we've traded in over the last 5 years. Can someone tell me why the hell we traded in Shane Kersten

Shane Kersten

Age

31

Ht

191cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.4

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.9

4star

MG

188.8

3star

No current season stats available

D

8.0

2star

K

7.0

3star

HB

1.0

2star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.6

4star

in the first place? He wasn't best 22 at Geelong, and he was an awful key forward for us. 2017 was a dark time when Kersten and McCarthy were the two key forwards and Shane was regularly getting games over Taberner while he was carving it up in the WAFL.

 

[go_the_dockers]

We've been burner by forwards we've traded in over the last 5 years. Can someone tell me why the hell we traded in Shane Kersten in the first place? He wasn't best 22 at Geelong, and he was an awful key forward for us. 2017 was a dark time when Kersten and McCarthy were the two key forwards and Shane was regularly getting games over Taberner while he was carving it up in the WAFL.

Can someone tell me why got Colyer, Matera or Acres, they were not best 22 either.

We love signing C grade players.

 

[MadMundy]

Can someone tell me why got Colyer, Matera or Acres, they were not best 22 either.

We love signing C grade players.

Colyer was a head scratcher, apparently he's friends with Fyfe so that helped his case. Matera did have a good season in him but he's too damn lazy to put together more than one good season. Acres is depth purely, that's it.

 

[FreoRicci]

Giving Hogan away because cultural issues is the most Freo thing. Who gives a crap about culture when you win?
Gotta have good blokes like Schulz, Colyer and Banfield around because they’re hard workers...

 

[MadMundy]

Giving Hogan away because cultural issues is the most Freo thing. Who gives a crap about culture when you win?
Gotta have good blokes like Schulz, Colyer and Banfield around because they’re hard workers...

As I've heard many Melbourne fans say, Hogan is a good forward to have when you need a couple of cheap goals from out the back, other than that he's not a reliable piece and a soft footballer.

Sad thing is we could probably use those couple of goals from out the back right now.

 

[trentjac]

To be sure Walters is going to make a considerable difference down there, as long as he doesn't get surly at the umpires

He is good for at least 2-3 Emmy award winning ducks in front of goal

Exactly, work ethic and drive is a massively important factor in becoming an elite player. McCarthy had the skill and nous to be a great forward, the amount of 4+ goal games he had along with his near dead eye set shots showed us that. But the dude was so ******* lazy it's not even funny

lazy, footy IQ and can kick bags versus effort, NFI and couldn’t hit the side of a barn??? We delist the first and provide contract extensions for the later. We are a laughing stock

 

[MadMundy]

He is good for at least 2-3 Emmy award winning ducks in front of goal

lazy, footy IQ and can kick bags versus effort, NFI and couldn’t hit the side of a barn??? We delist the first and provide contract extensions for the later. We are a laughing stock

I do agree with you in that we should have kept McCarthy, would have been nice if he'd have put in some more effort though.

 

[Square Peg]

As I've heard many Melbourne fans say, Hogan is a good forward to have when you need a couple of cheap goals from out the back, other than that he's not a reliable piece and a soft footballer.

Sad thing is we could probably use those couple of goals from out the back right now.

I've heard Freo fans say Lachie Neale is an accumulator without a penetrating kick, Brad Hill is a flake, Lachie Weller a dud. I think I will take it all with a grain of salt

 

[blue shark]

It’s not all about first rounders though, plenty of quality forwards in the second round and later.
We just focus on inside mids, half backs.
Goal kickers are gold in the AFL.
That and the rule makers want to encourage this.
COVID gave us a chance to strike, with many players unable to shine.
McDonald is the opposite, no wafl time and he is lucky to be drafted.

 

[Wilksyy]

Giving Hogan away because cultural issues is the most Freo thing. Who gives a crap about culture when you win?
Gotta have good blokes like Schulz, Colyer and Banfield around because they’re hard workers...

Trading away top 10 draft picks for a quick fix is the most Freo thing.

 

[Unique Name]

Hogan was s**t for 2 seasons.

Simply a disastrous trade in hindsight

 

[trentjac]

Trading away top 10 draft picks for a quick fix is the most Freo thing.

Freo supporters coming up with excuse after excuse for our utter shitness is the most Freo thing. We are well and truly the most unsuccessful AFL team going around. Our supporters have also lost their spirit. I attend all home games and we are the quietest bunch going around. The bloke that sits a couple of seats down from me brings a book to read FFS

 

[MadMundy]

Freo supporters coming up with excuse after excuse for our utter shitness is the most Freo thing. We are well and truly the most unsuccessful AFL team going around. Our supporters have also lost their spirit. I attend all home games and we are the quietest bunch going around. The bloke that sits a couple of seats down from me brings a book to read FFS

I get looks for cheering hard and trying to be loud to get behind the team, where's the ******* team spirit?

 

[Swiggy]

Anyone else think logue could be the one that goes forward?

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Team, in respect of Gav since he has been polite and asked several times, kept it on the topic of the forward line. Further off topic posts will be deleted from here (to the best of my ability)

 

[Docker82]

Think the better solution would have been not to trade for those guys in the first place and instead go to the draft and build a bunch of KPFS and FWD/Rucks like we've done pretty well with our young midfield and back line. We panicked and took a chance on a quick fix but it back-fired big time. Don't repeat the mistakes - invest in the draft and only trade in when it is cheap.

I’m sorry but our cheap trades recently (ie less than pick 40 in value) read as:

2016: McCarthy (value wise it was **** all - downgraded four picks with a decent pick also coming in)
2016: Kersten
2017: Matera
2018: Colyer
2019: Do we count Acres? - wouldn’t have added much to the Hill trade.

Do not do cheap trades - they’re a waste of time.

Far more value out of Wilson, Hamling, Lobb, Hill and Aish. Despite what all the negative crew would like to tell you we got some good footy out of all these guys.

Conca cost us nothing except salary so different story - gets a pass mark at worst regardless.

Bennell and Hogan were the two disasters. They both had questionable character and injury history. Could say that McCarthy, Matera and Kersten had questionable character too. Maybe only trade in guys with good character.

 

[Dockeroo]

Giving Hogan away because cultural issues is the most Freo thing. Who gives a crap about culture when you win?
Gotta have good blokes like Schulz, Colyer and Banfield around because they’re hard workers...

I agree with a lot of your comments in general. But not this. You’d swear Hogan was a 3 time All Australian full forward who had starred in multiple finals victories for his former club the way people are crying over him.
The Jesse Hogan I saw at freo was a bang average player at this level. With a stinky attitude and constantly injured. Not to mention the off field s**t. He should never have been brought near the club in the first place. Getting rid of him was the right move. I’ll eat my hat if Jesse Hogan ever plays a finals match and in fact I’d say the likeliest outcome is that he is moved on from GWS within a couple of years.
The prized draft picks we handed over for him which now leave a hole in out list are what we should be pissed off about.

 

[trentjac]

I get looks for cheering hard and trying to be loud to get behind the team, where's the ******* team spirit?

I’m the same. I think a few members near me have called security because I cheer to loud and interrupt their reading

 

[MadMundy]

I’m the same. I think a few members near me have called security because I cheer to loud and interrupt their reading

What's the point in going to the footy and paying money if you're not going to get behind the team? I just don't get it.

 

[wayToGo_]

I’m sorry but our cheap trades recently (ie less than pick 40 in value) read as:

2016: McCarthy (value wise it was **** all - downgraded four picks with a decent pick also coming in)
2016: Kersten
2017: Matera
2018: Colyer
2019: Do we count Acres? - wouldn’t have added much to the Hill trade.

Do not do cheap trades - they’re a waste of time.

Far more value out of Wilson, Hamling, Lobb, Hill and Aish. Despite what all the negative crew would like to tell you we got some good footy out of all these guys.

Conca cost us nothing except salary so different story - gets a pass mark at worst regardless.

Bennell and Hogan were the two disasters. They both had questionable character and injury history. Could say that McCarthy, Matera and Kersten had questionable character too. Maybe only trade in guys with good character.

Perhaps 'cheap' is not the right term - I class the Hamling, Hill and Aish trades as relatively cheap pick-ups. Low risk maybe? - so not first rounders where you are giving up a top quality draftee. Like the Hogan trade or what we supposedly almost did with McCarthy a year earlier than we traded him in.

I don't have a huge problem with the others you listed (you missed the ones that are ok) as it's pretty hit or miss with draftees in that range. But retrospectively it is pretty clear there should be a standard for any player that gets traded in. If they are too cheap (eg steak knives) then that's probably a sign you might be better off just taking a punt on a speculative youngster instead - but at the same time you can't have 22 youngsters in your team and expect to grow. Think 2nd and 3rd round might be the sweet spot for us trading. Crossing fingers we get to take advantage of free agency at some point as well.