I want to build muscle, help a brother out

[fairdinkum]

strength and power are different. i accept there's a correlation between the two, but a great display of size or strength, doesnt neccesarily translate to power. a smaller man can display greater strength, and/or power than the bigger man. strength is the amount of force a person can exert. power is the speed at which a person can exert a force.

We agree that there is a direct correlation between muscle strength, size and power? Good!

yep, it must be bigfooty for one to be quoting the most respected of reference sites.

When it comes to topics such as strength training, Wikipedia is about as credible as you will find on the internet. At least there, things are supposed to be referenced to other sources and everything is subject to internal criticism. Are you disagreeing with the following?

A display of "strength" (e.g lifting a weight) is a result of three factors that overlap: physiological strength (muscle size, cross sectional area, available crossbridging, responses to training), neurological strength (how strong or weak is the signal that tells the muscle to contract), and mechanical strength (muscle's force angle on the lever, moment arm length, joint capabilities).

 

[dale_mighty_pies]

We agree that there is a direct correlation between muscle strength, size and power? Good!
[/I]

No way..

There is barely any correlation between muscle size and power...
Muscular power is the speed of force produced if you didn't know already.

Person 1: 5"11, 180lb, 15% BF... Can snatch and C&J huge numbers. Far stronger than Person 2.

Person 2: 5"11, 260lb 10% BF (massive), but seeing as he trains as a bodybuilder, he is huge, but that doesn't mean he has good muscular power.

If you got a bodybuilder to try and snatch 130kg over their head they wouldn't stand a chance, while a less muscular person who trains specifically for muscular power would show him how its done.

They train in such a low rep range, where barely any muscle is produced due to the gains the person makes being from neurological response rather than needing muscle hypertrophy to increase there power.

Do you understand the concepts of myofibrillar hypertrophy and sarcoplasmic hypertophy?

 

[dale_mighty_pies]

I do body pump which concentrates on doing 5 minutes of high reps low weight for every muscle group. This is effective for toning and doesn't neccessarily make big muscles. I don't think this is a waste of time.

Bodypump is good.

5 Minutes x focusing on say 6 bodyparts = 30 minutes of full on aerobic activity is good, but thats irrelevant as this is considered an aerobic activity. The guy who was talking about high reps / low weight, but not to the extent of 500 reps + for a session, which makes it irrelevant as i know thats not what he was referring to in his original post about his rep ranges.

It's effective for "dropping body fat" as you are sustaining an aerobic activity which is obviously burning calories., but its not possible for 90% of the population to sustain doing any form of weight training for 30 mins without rest.

I nearly stopped reading when I saw how bad your grammar is, but kindly I continued.

Oh how kind of you...

Where did I say 'tone a muscle'??

This whole thread revolves around muscle..read the thread title, then read it again.

I said low weight/high reps will tone your body IE. LOSE FAT ******* and it will.

No you didn't. You never used the word "body".. You posted in a thread discussing building muscle, and you pulled the word "tone" out and i quote your original post "high reps/low weight will just tone, not grow."

If you go to the gym, do high reps of a low weight, your not going to tone ANYTHING. Firstly you cannot spot reduct, and secondly unless you stand there doing your low weight for 30 mins + you are wasting your time.

Try doing any kind of weight training NON STOP for more than 50 seconds and tell me if thats actually sustainable? No.

Nobody said anything about 'toning a muscle' except that *******.

This thread is about building muscle. Again you came out with your word "toning", which is branded word on the word "tone". Tone refers to someone who has a low amount of bodyfat with muscle definition. The guy wants to build muscle, not "TONEEE"

Why would someone waste time doing your "high reps, low weight" which is probably going to be more counter productive than anything, while their goal as you say is "TONING THE BODY.." If they wanted to reach the toning the body goals (wow toning the body, i've heard it all now) they should be doing cardio, aerobic activity, not pointless light weights which will have no positive effect on the body.

yeah i realised that after someone pointed it out and i re-read all of the posts. i thought somebody must've said you can "tone muscle" after dale_mighty_pies got on his high horse, but i see that sirlothie simply said high-reps/low-weight "tones" the body, not muscle in particular. which can make sense, i think some bodybuilders just seem to hate the term "tone", as opposed to "drop body fat". but my apologies.

Tone is the most ridiculous word to ever hit the fitness industry.
Just watch the ads for the ab king pro, promising you will drop fat off your abs.. which is obviously not possible because spot reduction is a myth!!
You can't choose where your body stores fat and you can't choose where is drops it from.

 

[Kong]

Tone is the most ridiculous word to ever hit the fitness industry.
Just watch the ads for the ab king pro, promising you will drop fat off your abs.. which is obviously not possible because spot reduction is a myth!!
You can't choose where your body stores fat and you can't choose where is drops it from.

haha yeah i love seeing those ads, where they get buff looking guys to use the ab king pro; guys that have had years in the gym and weeks-months of cutting body fat. i know how people find it easy to fall into the trap of thinking you can choose where your body stores and drops fat. as for the whole 'high rep-low weight' topic, i prefer to do 20-60mins powerwalk in the morning to drop body fat, as well as speed up my metabolism.

 

[kiroshi]

hey i want an opinion on my workout please?

i train monday, wednesday and friday for 50 minutes each time.

i train my abs with crunches, sit-ups and leg ups every session. monday is chest and deltoids. wednesday is traps, triceps and biceps and friday is lats and back. my legs are built enough (thanks genetics). i alternate my workout every three weeks; mixing up my lift time, weight, rest time, reps and sets. this way i keep up the interest. i dont really want a whole lot more mass, but a little would be good with some definition.

also, has anyone else used carnitine? last time i used it i bulked up no end real easy.

 

[sirlothie]

Bodypump is good.

5 Minutes x focusing on say 6 bodyparts = 30 minutes of full on aerobic activity is good, but thats irrelevant as this is considered an aerobic activity. The guy who was talking about high reps / low weight, but not to the extent of 500 reps + for a session, which makes it irrelevant as i know thats not what he was referring to in his original post about his rep ranges.

It's effective for "dropping body fat" as you are sustaining an aerobic activity which is obviously burning calories., but its not possible for 90% of the population to sustain doing any form of weight training for 30 mins without rest.





This whole thread revolves around muscle..read the thread title, then read it again.




No you didn't. You never used the word "body".. You posted in a thread discussing building muscle, and you pulled the word "tone" out and i quote your original post "high reps/low weight will just tone, not grow."

If you go to the gym, do high reps of a low weight, your not going to tone ANYTHING. Firstly you cannot spot reduct, and secondly unless you stand there doing your low weight for 30 mins + you are wasting your time.

Try doing any kind of weight training NON STOP for more than 50 seconds and tell me if thats actually sustainable? No.




This thread is about building muscle. Again you came out with your word "toning", which is branded word on the word "tone". Tone refers to someone who has a low amount of bodyfat with muscle definition. The guy wants to build muscle, not "TONEEE"

Why would someone waste time doing your "high reps, low weight" which is probably going to be more counter productive than anything, while their goal as you say is "TONING THE BODY.." If they wanted to reach the toning the body goals (wow toning the body, i've heard it all now) they should be doing cardio, aerobic activity, not pointless light weights which will have no positive effect on the body.

Mate, I know you are embarrassed you were wrong but reread everything you have just said.

Bodypump is good huh? Have you ever seen/done bodypump? What is it? Low weight/high rep training. Exactly as I referred to. Do bodybuilders do bodypump? No. Who does bodypump mainly? Chicks. Why? They don't want muscle growth and definition, they want more tone, slight muscle gain but more body sculpting and fat loss at the same time to strengthen but not signficantly increase their muscle mass and also to lose fat at the same time due to low intensity weight training.

You just contradicted yourself 17 times in 1 post, went from one thing to another over and over again a complete reversal of what your even saying so who is supposed to take you seriously as all you seem intent on doing is trying to prove you know more than somebody else and twisting their words around to suit your own gay purposes.

Reread your own words:

"Bodypump is good.

5 Minutes x focusing on say 6 bodyparts = 30 minutes of full on aerobic activity is good, but thats irrelevant as this is considered an aerobic activity. The guy who was talking about high reps / low weight, but not to the extent of 500 reps + for a session, which makes it irrelevant as i know thats not what he was referring to in his original post about his rep ranges.

It's effective for "dropping body fat" as you are sustaining an aerobic activity which is obviously burning calories., but its not possible for 90% of the population to sustain doing any form of weight training for 30 mins without rest."

What is Bodypump? Low weight/high rep weight training.

What is it effective for? "Dropping body fat" or in other words, TONING!!

Not possible for 90% of people, I see Bodypump classes going on for 30 mins every time I go to my gym and not one person ever walks out because it is too hard. So 90% of people can do it, rather than can't.

See now how you talk s**t in circles to just suit your own purposes?

Bye now.

 

[dale_mighty_pies]

They don't want muscle growth and definition, they want more tone

Whhhhat??

Tone is another word for definition... yet they want it and don't want it at the same time? Umm what??

They don't want muscle growth

Of course they don't, and girls don't have the natural testosterone to be able to produce large amounts of muscle anyway, even if they wanted to.

....

According to you to lose fat, the best way is low weight and high reps, which according to you is better at dropping body fat than weight training + cardio.. all i can do is let you believe that and see you fail when you start going to the gym.

Have a read of some websites with some quality information and you will find you are very very wrong in everything you have said on this forum.

"It is a common misconception that light weights performed for a high number of repetitions will tone the body or add definition to muscles without adding a lot of bulky muscle. For this reason, most ladies you see who have been brave enough to enter the weights room will work out with the pink Barbie dumbbells for endless repetitions either in the belief that they are going to tone their muscles or because they are afraid of bulking up and looking like Chyna from WWF.

What that high rep training does is increase your muscular endurance, which makes sense if you think about it. You’re teaching your muscles to work for long periods of time. High rep training won’t tone your muscles and has very limited capacity to make you stronger or make your muscles grow."

http://www.hotbodytraining.com/why-high-reps-arent-for-toning/
http://www.intense-workout.com/tone_definition.html
http://exercise.about.com/od/exerciseworkouts/ss/strengthmyths_2.htm

 

[dale_mighty_pies]

hey i want an opinion on my workout please?

i train monday, wednesday and friday for 50 minutes each time.

i train my abs with crunches, sit-ups and leg ups every session. monday is chest and deltoids. wednesday is traps, triceps and biceps and friday is lats and back. my legs are built enough (thanks genetics). i alternate my workout every three weeks; mixing up my lift time, weight, rest time, reps and sets. this way i keep up the interest. i dont really want a whole lot more mass, but a little would be good with some definition.

also, has anyone else used carnitine? last time i used it i bulked up no end real easy.

Hey mate.

First off, no need to train your abs 3 days a week if you are training them hard. Start hitting them with weighted exercises once a week, thats all thats needed, just hit them hard when you do.

Still train your legs even though they are already a good size as you say. Doing lower body exercises such as squats, lunges etc will help with your upper body work as it will strengthen your posterior chain.

If you want "definition", you have to drop body fat. Definition appears as you start seeing muscle as body fat lowers. The best way top drop body fat is to be calorie deficient, lift heavy, and throw in cardio. Read up on some articles about cutting bodybuilding cutting cycles, this will appeal to you.

How tall are you and what do you weigh?

 

[kiroshi]

Hey mate.

First off, no need to train your abs 3 days a week if you are training them hard. Start hitting them with weighted exercises once a week, thats all thats needed, just hit them hard when you do.

Still train your legs even though they are already a good size as you say. Doing lower body exercises such as squats, lunges etc will help with your upper body work as it will strengthen your posterior chain.

If you want "definition", you have to drop body fat. Definition appears as you start seeing muscle as body fat lowers. The best way top drop body fat is to be calorie deficient, lift heavy, and throw in cardio. Read up on some articles about cutting bodybuilding cutting cycles, this will appeal to you.

How tall are you and what do you weigh?

cheers for the reply mate. i weigh 86 kilos and am 180 cms tall. i dont have much body fat on me and do about 3-5 cardio sessions of at least 40 minutes duration per week. my legs are very big as i used to run on the beach constantly. i was more concerned with my actual weights workout. plus does anyone have some good workouts for forearms (not forearm curls) and glute's (not lunges or squats)?

 

[dale_mighty_pies]

cheers for the reply mate. i weigh 86 kilos and am 180 cms tall. i dont have much body fat on me and do about 3-5 cardio sessions of at least 40 minutes duration per week. my legs are very big as i used to run on the beach constantly. i was more concerned with my actual weights workout. plus does anyone have some good workouts for forearms (not forearm curls) and glute's (not lunges or squats)?

No worries!

Thats a decent weight for your height given you are pretty lean by the sounds of it, nice work mate.

Your forearms should grow considerably from holding heavy weight, such as deadlifts, rack pulls, even chin ups should hit your forearms pretty well. In my opinion forearm curls are pretty much a waste of time, but thats my 2c!

Write up your whole workout mate, including your training split + exercises you do, i can help you out if i can see exactly what you're doing. Cheers.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

I like the organ.

 

[shammersting]

I would appreaciate some advice thanks. I'm doing weights every second day at the gym to allow my body to recover. I want to start swimming a few times a week. Is it a good idea to do swimming in my days off from the gym or should I do it on days I go to the gym. Thanks...

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Im thinking of buying some dumbells off RebelSports?

Thoughts?

 

[dale_mighty_pies]

I would appreaciate some advice thanks. I'm doing weights every second day at the gym to allow my body to recover. I want to start swimming a few times a week. Is it a good idea to do swimming in my days off from the gym or should I do it on days I go to the gym. Thanks...

Write up your routine mate then i can help gauge when you should be swimming and if you are getting enough recovery.

Im thinking of buying some dumbells off RebelSports?

Thoughts?

How heavy do they go and what will you do with them do you have a bench or a rack?

The fundamental piece of equipment in anyones home gym should be a power rack, then the rest should follow

 

[shammersting]

Write up your routine mate then i can help gauge when you should be swimming and if you are getting enough recovery.


Thanks mate, just basically getting back into it. Never been a massive gym junkie but I'm basically doing an hour or so workout every couple of days doing shoulders and chests mainly. I run on alternate days. Really want to get into swimming 3 or 4 times a week. Thanks again

 

[dale_mighty_pies]

Thanks mate, just basically getting back into it. Never been a massive gym junkie but I'm basically doing an hour or so workout every couple of days doing shoulders and chests mainly. I run on alternate days. Really want to get into swimming 3 or 4 times a week. Thanks again

Hey mate. Is there any reason your not doing any back, legs, bicep, tricep work?

Theres not much reason to do just chest and shoulder work, as your going to end up having a very very weak back, meaning you will start getting a pretty obvious hunch with such a strong chest, overpowering your back.

I'm off to bed for now, but i'll get back in this thread soon. Cheers

 

[fairdinkum]

There is barely any correlation between muscle size and power...
Muscular power is the speed of force produced if you didn't know already.

power = work/time

That 'work' is performed by muscles utilising their 'strength'. Physiological strength is a major component of overall strength, and muscle size is a component of physiological strength.

I see the point you are trying to make, however I think you might be a little misguided.

Think about this. A bloke starts going to the gym and starts off benching 40 kgs for 10 reps. Over the following months, he notices he can press more and more weight for the 10 reps. After a year he is up to 60 kgs. He also notices that his chest and triceps are bigger. Is this a coincidence that he is both pressing more weight, and gaining muscle mass?

Obviously muscle size is related to muscle strength. Then, the amount of work that can be exerted on the bar is contingent on the strength possessed by the muscles. This guy is now pressing more weight (ie his muscles are doing more work) over the same period of time (a rep).

So if we go back to the original equation, work has increased, time has remained constant, so then power must have increased.

 

[Jimmy_the_Gent]

What would somebody have to do to get some abdominal hypertrophy?

A million sit ups is a little much. Is there a better way?

 

[mad-saint-guy]

This may not be the best place to post this, but does anyone here maintain a weights program during the footy season?

I had a big 3-4 months pre season in the gym, really enjoyed it and planned to keep lifting throughout the footy season (cut back to 3 sessions per week), but after about round 5 I just couldn't keep up. Niggling injuries (sprained ankles, heavily bruised knee from ruck contests, corkies, jarred fingers) from footy and lack of energy (school weekdays, footy training tues + thurs, match sunday, squash tuesday, PE tues + wednesdays) just meant that I had no motivation to get to the gym (I was planning on going Mon, Wed and Fridays).

I know it isn't a huge problem, but it does seem like quite a waste of money paying for the gym membership and hardly being able to get there for a 4-month stretch.

Anyway, my footy season will be over in a few weeks and I'll be able to get back into it. Hopefully next year I can keep some sort of program going during footy. Does anyone have a decent program that wouldn't interfere with running/kicking/jumping on Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday (and would allow for a bit of recovery after the match)?

 

[dale_mighty_pies]

power = work/time

That 'work' is performed by muscles utilising their 'strength'. Physiological strength is a major component of overall strength, and muscle size is a component of physiological strength.

I see the point you are trying to make, however I think you might be a little misguided.

Think about this. A bloke starts going to the gym and starts off benching 40 kgs for 10 reps. Over the following months, he notices he can press more and more weight for the 10 reps. After a year he is up to 60 kgs. He also notices that his chest and triceps are bigger. Is this a coincidence that he is both pressing more weight, and gaining muscle mass?

Obviously muscle size is related to muscle strength. Then, the amount of work that can be exerted on the bar is contingent on the strength possessed by the muscles. This guy is now pressing more weight (ie his muscles are doing more work) over the same period of time (a rep).

So if we go back to the original equation, work has increased, time has remained constant, so then power must have increased.

Yes, but think about the concept from another direction. There is a small correlation with muscle size / muscular power, but to say there is a direct correlation is off the mark. Where would you put a person who can snatch 100kg, but does not have a lot of muscle mass on your "direct correlation"??
I can see where you're coming from, but your not seeing the whole picture.

It's pretty self explanatory that someone with more muscle size is generally going to be stronger than their skinnier counterpart, but if your direct correlation was correct then we wouldn't ever see skinny Olympic lifters, skinny long jumpers etc. If there was in fact a direct correlation between the two, the long jumpers legs would be bigger than Tom Platz's legs for example.

What would somebody have to do to get some abdominal hypertrophy?

A million sit ups is a little much. Is there a better way?

Weighted situps. Treat your abs like any other muscle, hit it heavy with 8-12 reps for optimum muscle hypertrophy. Doing countless sit ups with no added weight will do nothing for you but waste your time.

 

[morgoth]

What would somebody have to do to get some abdominal hypertrophy?

A million sit ups is a little much. Is there a better way?

Also use a medicine ball and toss it between yourself and a mate or if on your own, throw it against a wall instead and catch it.

If you want the 6 pack though it is really down to diet.

 

[dale_mighty_pies]

If you want the 6 pack though it is really down to diet.

Wise words, most people forget they have to be lean to reveal there 6 pack, but he did say he wanted abdominal hypertrophy, not to reveal his abs

 

[Jimmy_the_Gent]

Weighted situps. Treat your abs like any other muscle, hit it heavy with 8-12 reps for optimum muscle hypertrophy. Doing countless sit ups with no added weight will do nothing for you but waste your time.

You know what, deep down I knew this was going to be the answer

BTW, I know about the BF% revealing your abdominals. I just want to increase the size of mine for a bigger 'cut'.

Anyways, thanks for the advice.

 

[jim101]

Would like to know what people think about static training, its when u hold the the heaviest weight you can hold for ten seconds. It seems to be working (if you belive all the hype)

 

[fairdinkum]

Yes, but think about the concept from another direction. There is a small correlation with muscle size / muscular power, but to say there is a direct correlation is off the mark.

No it isn't. I have already given a scientific formula which proves the direct correlation between strength and power. You have offered nothing to counter it.

Where would you put a person who can snatch 100kg, but does not have a lot of muscle mass on your "direct correlation"??

Compared to what? Random examples like that are not in the least bit useful to this discussion.

I can see where you're coming from, but your not seeing the whole picture.
It's pretty self explanatory that someone with more muscle size is generally going to be stronger than their skinnier counterpart, but if your direct correlation was correct then we wouldn't ever see skinny Olympic lifters, skinny long jumpers etc. If there was in fact a direct correlation between the two, the long jumpers legs would be bigger than Tom Platz's legs for example.

Olympic lifting is broken down into different weight divisions. It goes without saying that men competing in the 56kg class aren't going to be very muscled! Remember, too, that lifting requires not only strength, but also technique and flexibility.

As for long jumpers, my understanding is that they rely on their momentum from running as much as they do their leap, when trying to jump a long distance. Long jumpers also focus on endurance. Given this, it makes sense that they avoid having huge legs - this would surely make it harder for them to run.

Ultimately, you have been proven wrong in regards to your claims that power and strength aren't related. On the contrary - there is a direct (and scientifically sound) relation between the two.