Intermittent fasting

Remove this Banner Ad

saj_21

Cancelled
Aug 30, 2007
9,004
6,150
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Warney's IPL team!
Yeah it was more just an example of someone using IF in a heavy bulking cycle.

I'm not far off finishing my mini cut and at this stage I am thinking of stopping IF unless someone can convince me otherwise.
Hugh Jackman most likely had some make version of HRT, meaning IF had two fiths of fu** all to do with bulking up.

You want to lose weight be calorie deficit if your want to eat in a 16 hour window to achieve that go for your life. You want to bulk up eat in calorie surplus. You want to lose weight and gain muscle get on the gear.
 

Sylvia Saint

Cancelled
May 20, 2004
7,762
7,469
Melbourne
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Crusaders
Hugh Jackman most likely had some make version of HRT, meaning IF had two fiths of fu** all to do with bulking up.

You want to lose weight be calorie deficit if your want to eat in a 16 hour window to achieve that go for your life. You want to bulk up eat in calorie surplus. You want to lose weight and gain muscle get on the gear.
Makes sense. For me, there's no real benefit to IF once I transition to the clean bulking phase as Getting 2700-3000 calories worth of good foods and supplements is going to be hard enough without shortening my eating window. Wasn't such an issue in the dirty bulk days!

Re. Jackman, upon further research it would appear he was already big and actually got shredded to prepare for Wolverine. So the IF fits the narrative there even if nobody believes he did it cleanly.
 

estibador

purple haze
Mar 2, 2007
40,109
49,382
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Liverpool
A new study published this week showed an alternate day fasting protocol (36 hours fasting, 12 hours feeding) improved a bunch of health markers while being easier to adhere to than traditional continuous calorie restriction.

Summary
Caloric restriction and intermittent fasting are known to prolong life- and healthspan in model organisms, while their effects on humans are less well studied. In a randomized controlled trial study (ClinicalTrials.govidentifier: NCT02673515), we show that 4 weeks of strict alternate day fasting (ADF) improved markers of general health in healthy, middle-aged humans while causing a 37% calorie reduction on average. No adverse effects occurred even after >6 months. ADF improved cardiovascular markers, reduced fat mass (particularly the trunk fat), improving the fat-to-lean ratio, and increased β-hydroxybutyrate, even on non-fasting days. On fasting days, the pro-aging amino-acid methionine, among others, was periodically depleted, while polyunsaturated fatty acids were elevated. We found reduced levels sICAM-1 (an age-associated inflammatory marker), low-density lipoprotein, and the metabolic regulator triiodothyronine after long-term ADF. These results shed light on the physiological impact of ADF and supports its safety. ADF could eventually become a clinically relevant intervention.

 

Log in to remove this ad.

showdownhero

Premiership Player
Oct 6, 2005
4,583
1,781
Melbourne
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
on a journey through time and space
Whenever I do a 24 hour fast I've always had a bit of difficulty getting to sleep and almost feel a bit manic and unable to calm down and relax with my mind racing. I've started having a teaspoon (5g) of Cream of Tartar around dinner time and have had some of my best nights sleep in ages, Cream of Tartar is 20% potassium so I'm effectively supplementing an extra gram of Potassium every day.

Honestly can't emphasise enough how much better it's made me feel and sleep :thumbsu:
 

Barrysballs

Club Legend
Mar 19, 2018
1,662
1,367
AFL Club
Fremantle
Whenever I do a 24 hour fast I've always had a bit of difficulty getting to sleep and almost feel a bit manic and unable to calm down and relax with my mind racing. I've started having a teaspoon (5g) of Cream of Tartar around dinner time and have had some of my best nights sleep in ages, Cream of Tartar is 20% potassium so I'm effectively supplementing an extra gram of Potassium every day.

Honestly can't emphasise enough how much better it's made me feel and sleep :thumbsu:
Interesting I'll give it a go
 

showdownhero

Premiership Player
Oct 6, 2005
4,583
1,781
Melbourne
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
on a journey through time and space
Sounds interesting. Do you just mix with water and drink it?
Yep, doesn't taste to bad either. Has a kind of citrus acidity

It's not super soluble in water but I just top up the glass with a bit of extra water to make sure I get all the remnants down my gullet :)
 

Bazzar

Hall of Famer
May 8, 2007
46,504
67,546
AFL Club
Richmond
A new study published this week showed an alternate day fasting protocol (36 hours fasting, 12 hours feeding) improved a bunch of health markers while being easier to adhere to than traditional continuous calorie restriction.

Summary
Caloric restriction and intermittent fasting are known to prolong life- and healthspan in model organisms, while their effects on humans are less well studied. In a randomized controlled trial study (ClinicalTrials.govidentifier: NCT02673515), we show that 4 weeks of strict alternate day fasting (ADF) improved markers of general health in healthy, middle-aged humans while causing a 37% calorie reduction on average. No adverse effects occurred even after >6 months. ADF improved cardiovascular markers, reduced fat mass (particularly the trunk fat), improving the fat-to-lean ratio, and increased β-hydroxybutyrate, even on non-fasting days. On fasting days, the pro-aging amino-acid methionine, among others, was periodically depleted, while polyunsaturated fatty acids were elevated. We found reduced levels sICAM-1 (an age-associated inflammatory marker), low-density lipoprotein, and the metabolic regulator triiodothyronine after long-term ADF. These results shed light on the physiological impact of ADF and supports its safety. ADF could eventually become a clinically relevant intervention.

Just got the latest Peter Attia email and he's not too keen on this study.
This stood out "the investigators stated that they “do not have access to baseline values of the long-term ADF cohort.”

I'll cut n paste it as its a subscriber email

Greetings -

I read a study published in Cell Metabolism (September 3, 2019) on alternate day fasting (ADF) that got a lot of lay press attention. One of the things that struck me right away is that this was a literal ADF.

You might think it’s reasonable to assume that any ADF study you pluck out of PubMed is investigating what happens when individuals fast every other day. But many published studies on ADF in humans actually allows for 25% of “total energy needs,” for example. For an individual consuming 3,000 kcal daily to maintain body weight, this means that on “fasting” day, he eats 750 kcal. (Imagine that I told you I fast every other day, and on my fasting days, I include a Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese.) However, in this study participants were basically limited to water, coffee, or tea every other day.

This study included relatively healthy, non-obese participants. Many of the studies in the literature look at people who have obesity, type 2 diabetes, or a history of metabolic disorders, so this is a rare chance to look at what ADF can do in “healthy” folks.

This study was actually two separate studies rolled into one paper. Of the 90 healthy participants enrolled, 30 participants (first study) were instructed to practice ADF for more than 6 months. The other 60 participants (second study) first served as the controls (i.e., 60 people carrying on as usual versus 30 people doing ADF) and then were randomized and allocated to either 4 weeks of ADF or 4 weeks of their usual diet as the control group. To be clear, this is a pretty unusual design and created some problems, at least for me, described below.

Based on the 6-month cohort, the investigators concluded ADF is safe to practice for several months and improved markers of health in healthy, middle-aged humans. The most striking finding of the entire study is that, of the 30 individuals that started ADF, more than 6-months later, there were zero dropouts. In other words, apparently 100% compliance in a regimen that calls for strict fasting every other day for more than 180 days straight.

In the 4-week trial, the results were similar. Two dropouts in the control group and just 1 in the ADF group. That’s a 97% compliance rate (29/30) in the ADF group after fasting every other day for just under a month. And, according to their protocol paper, the investigators put the 4-week ADF group on continuous glucose monitors to verify adherence. What about the 6-month ADF group? Unfortunately, it’s not clear at all how well they stuck to the diet, we just know that they were all accounted for an analyzed at follow-up.

Even more unfortunately, and honestly, I’m at a loss for what’s going on here, the investigators stated that they “do not have access to baseline values of the long-term ADF cohort.” I’m just going to park this right here and come back to it in a moment, but suffice it to say, I wasted a lot of time reading and re-reading the paper to figure out how the hell this could be the case.

Something else that’s puzzling to me is that I can make no sense of Table 1 in terms of many of the deltas (i.e., changes) reported at 4-week follow-up. For example, the control group went from a reported 75.93 kg in body weight at baseline to 76.23 at 4-weeks. What do you think the reported change in body weight was? If you answered −0.196 can you please tell me how you arrived at that number? Seriously, hit me up on Twitter. I’m thinking that there’s something I’m missing here, but I’m also thinking that it shouldn’t be so difficult to interpret Table 1 in what should be a straightforward trial.

When I read a paper, I generally try to think about what the study adds in terms of our knowledge. I want to say that this is an important study showing that ADF appears to be safe and the compliance suggests that a very simple (don’t eat anything on Monday, eat whatever you want on Tuesday…) protocol also looks easy. I’m sure most of you are thinking that not eating anything every other day does not exactly sound easy, and I’m right there with you. It’s not easy, at least for me, but it is simple to understand (versus, say, some elaborate calorie or macro counting plan). In fact, the senior author on the paper says that strict ADF “is one of the most extreme diet interventions. . .” Krista Varady, someone who has investigated a “modified” ADF (of the 25% of total energy needs variety mentioned above) said, “I think [strict ADF] would be really difficult for people to follow.”

But this study certainly suggests that if ADF is efficacious, if it clearly can improve health, we certainly shouldn’t just dismiss the intervention because we don’t think anyone could do it. In other words, it may be both efficacious (it works) and effective (it can actually be adhered to).

However, I must say, after looking over how poor the design is, I’m not comfortable making any strong claim based on this study.

If you look at figure 3A through 3I in the study, it’s clearly comparing (in what are called box-plots):
  • changes in the control group from baseline to 4-weeks, to
  • changes in the ADF group from baseline to 4-weeks
This is straightforward and logical. In other words, split up a bunch of similar people, change one variable in one group, run the experiment, plot the results, and see how they compare. Figures 3J through 3T add another element, but it, too, is pretty straightforward.

In stark contrast, there’s Figure 5. This, according to the authors, is comparing “Differences in the Lipid Profile of Healthy, Non-obese Humans on ADF for >6 Months.” This one is more difficult to interpret, and potentially misleading. On the surface, it looks straightforward. It’s comparing the participants that served as the control group (see above) next to the >6-months ADF group. (OK, it might seem more straightforward if you spend your weekend deciphering this!)

Remember, for reasons not disclosed, the investigators said they don’t have access to baseline values of the long-term (i.e., >6-months) ADF cohort. So, Figure 5 (A-Q) is comparing differences in “the Lipid Profile” of these two groups at the 6-month (technically, “>6-months”) timepoint.

Quick thought experiment to express my exasperation. Imagine you want to test the efficacy of a 6-month squat program in terms of improving your 1 rep max (1RM). You complete the program, and at the end of 6-months, you hit 300 lb. Is that good? What was your 1RM when you started the program? Not having access to your baseline values is another way of saying you don’t know where you started. Perhaps, you think, well, I compared myself to a friend, and he registered a 275 lb 1RM after 6-months of his usual routine, and he’s comparable to me in age, body weight, height, and body composition, so I probably improved.

To put it mildly, it doesn’t seem like you have complete information to start comparing “performance” metrics, and to step back into the real world, if the investigators of the study don’t have access to baseline values in the >6-month ADF cohort, how can they say they’re comparing apples to apples (as they suggest in their supplementary information)? I can’t stress how important is to verify that the people you’re comparing in an experiment/study are the same (i.e., homogeneous in the lingo) in the metrics in which you choose to compare over time, and you must know the starting point of each group.

I’m left bewildered: there are more questions than answers in most scientific pursuits, but I want to stress the point here that these aren’t rhetorical questions. What do the investigators mean when they say they don’t have access to baseline values of the long-term ADF cohort? Why doesn’t the math add up in Table 1 (see above)? If readers have some light to shed on the issues above, please send it my way.

- Peter
 

perthblue

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 10, 2011
10,709
19,620
Weitering
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Bayern München
Has anybody tried eating a calorie restrictive diet and had success? Like <1200 Calories a day, not necessarily eaten in the one meal? I'm just wondering how it compares with IF. I usually do IF/OMAD and have had some success but feel like calorie restriction is something I could do for longer periods.
 

saj_21

Cancelled
Aug 30, 2007
9,004
6,150
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Warney's IPL team!
Has anybody tried eating a calorie restrictive diet and had success? Like <1200 Calories a day, not necessarily eaten in the one meal? I'm just wondering how it compares with IF. I usually do IF/OMAD and have had some success but feel like calorie restriction is something I could do for longer periods.
1200 calories is very low, even for a small adult female. One size doesn’t fit all, the weight loss on each person eating 1200 calories. But I’d suspect the vast majority of moderately adults would lose weight on 1200 calories.

Eating 1 meal x 1200 calories or 6 meals x 200 calories doesn’t matter. IF isn’t magical. What matters is why you will adhere to best.

My suggestion would not be to start a diet on 1200 calories, where do you go if you hit a stall? Eat as much food as you can whilst losing weight
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

evo

Morales
Oct 29, 2003
28,874
21,103
La Paz, Bolivia
AFL Club
Richmond
I reckon the skin would tighten fine - the dude is probably legit. He has done it gradually over a year.

Intermittent fasting causes autophagy which is the body cleaning up junk protein. Loose skin is one of autophagy's main targets.



Jason Fung talks about a lot of his patients skin tightening.
 

Jason mp

Premium Platinum
Aug 31, 2015
22,549
46,109
By the Gabba.
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Valleys. Chelsea.
I haven't done any intermittent fasting for a few months now because of health issues... although because of the health issues I spent around 6 weeks consuming nothing but liquid meal supplements, largely Ensure and Resource 2.0.

I am now 40 hours into a 48 hour fast which was immediately preceded by a 24 hour fast. I intended to do a 48 hour fast but caved after 24 and had 200 grams of chicken and rice, felt guilty straight away so went right into the 48 hour again, doing it quite easy.
 

estibador

purple haze
Mar 2, 2007
40,109
49,382
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Liverpool
How have I never discovered the wonders of decaf before?

I've always drank black coffee during fasts but then I'd find it tough to get to sleep with all the caffeine combined with an empty stomach. And that meant I'd avoid the coffee when I most needed it - at night when I was most hungry.

But I'm doing a 36 hour fast today and suddenly a lightbulb went off in my head to buy some decaf. Been having a cup every three hours or so and I don't feel the slightest bit hungry. Fasting just got much easier!
 

estibador

purple haze
Mar 2, 2007
40,109
49,382
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Liverpool
Wouldn't decaf be like drinking non alcoholic beer.
That's why I've never tried it before - I usually only drink coffee for the caffeine.

But decaf does just as good a job of suppressing appetite as regular. It's some protein in it called PYY apparently.
 
Last edited:

Kompany

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 23, 2005
5,065
743
AFL Club
Melbourne
Anyone been fasting lately? I've been doing 18:6 to 20:4 every day for months now, and 2 weeks ago I started doing a weekly 40 hour fast. The 2nd one was noticeably easier than the first one. The only negative point was that I woke up a few times during my 2nd night, and was awake for an hour or 2.

Thinking of doing 64 hours next week. I just wonder what an ideal schedule would be, and also if I'm not slowing down my metabolism too much by fasting too much.
 

Barrysballs

Club Legend
Mar 19, 2018
1,662
1,367
AFL Club
Fremantle
Anyone been fasting lately? I've been doing 18:6 to 20:4 every day for months now, and 2 weeks ago I started doing a weekly 40 hour fast. The 2nd one was noticeably easier than the first one. The only negative point was that I woke up a few times during my 2nd night, and was awake for an hour or 2.

Thinking of doing 64 hours next week. I just wonder what an ideal schedule would be, and also if I'm not slowing down my metabolism too much by fasting too much.
Your body will tell you when it's to much. I kept increasing then felt it was to much and bought it back.

With metabolism just a couple thoughts, I don't think it would slow down but if it did slow down is that such a bad thing? wouldn't it just mean your body is running more efficiently?

I'm currently doing
Mon 18/6 ( 2 feeds)
Tue 23/1 (1 feed)
Wed 18/6
Thurs 23/1
Fri, Sat, Sun whatever I want ( I think break days are the most important and means I have the best of both worlds)

and then i do a 72 hr fast once a month usually the day after a long run (40k +)

I find this suits my body best , providing enough energy and all the fasting benefits of things like autophagy, hgh increase and low inflammation.

With sleep I had the same problem but now my body is use to it my sleep is real good on the longer fasts
 

Remove this Banner Ad