Is Ratten in trouble?

[HARKER]

This thread is not set out for any coach bashing, and to a point I am not happy laying it out here, but there does seem to be some weight to rumours of Ratten being ousted.

Setting out on a neutral stance there was evidence mid season of players not playing for the jumper.
Firstly, I don't recall such a lack of effort from our team over consecutive weeks as that we experienced this year.

Secondly the look of union between coach and players has not been there most year and irrespective of one being right or one wrong we know where this situation usually ends up.

Thirdly, the collective sacking of assistant coaches started the alarm bells for me but the reported non communication of Montgomery's sacking to Swann, really set me back.
I've no proof for this to be right but if it was the case it will not end well for someone.

I choose not to bring Rattens coaching into consideration here as that is largely a subjective topic, but if Ratten has distanced himself from the playing group and the executives, only pain can ensue

 

[Hayashi_62]

But does he believe we can play in finals?

 

[AlphaBlue]

Thirdly, the collective sacking of assistant coaches started the alarm bells for me but the reported non communication of Montgomery's sacking to Swann, really set me back.
I've no proof for this to be right but if it was the case it will not end well for someone.

Thats the only thing that really confused me, otherwise we dont have much of an idea of whats really happening inside out football club.

 

[HARKER]

Thats the only thing that really confused me, otherwise we dont have much of an idea of whats really happening inside out football club.

I guess you start seeing things, then you start smelling them and when you start to taste it, the question comes up.

I'm happy for Ratten being allowed to honour his contract but if a situation, for whatsoever reason becomes untenable in any part of an organisation, something must be done.

We've already seen what Swann is prepared to do, to best serve his post and I would not be messing with him, irrespective of just how nice a guy he may be.
There is no "boys own" considerations with Swanny.

 

[zeeCFC]

This thread is not set out for any coach bashing, and to a point I am not happy laying it out here, but there does seem to be some weight to rumours of Ratten being ousted.

Setting out on a neutral stance there was evidence mid season of players not playing for the jumper.
Firstly, I don't recall such a lack of effort from our team over consecutive weeks as that we experienced this year.

Secondly the look of union between coach and players has not been there most year and irrespective of one being right or one wrong we know where this situation usually ends up.

Thirdly, the collective sacking of assistant coaches started the alarm bells for me but the reported non communication of Montgomery's sacking to Swann, really set me back.
I've no proof for this to be right but if it was the case it will not end well for someone.

I choose not to bring Rattens coaching into consideration here as that is largely a subjective topic, but if Ratten has distanced himself from the playing group and the executives, only pain can ensue

Just to clarify...this did not actually happen, was reported incorrectly.

I for one am a little suspicious, Richardson has essentially been given a Director of Coaching role and Ratts would be hoping to have a "Top 6, win at least 1 final" season to keep his job.

This is coming from someone who supports Ratts

 

[Big Red is back]

Garry Lyon and the boys pre game before the GF replay said Ratten has to make a massive improvement this year or he is 100% gone.

They all have heard blues are desperate for Malthouse.

Top 5 or bye bye

 

[blues4flag]

Not happy about the fast turnover of coaches we've had in recent years.

In the last 10 years, we've had Parkin, Brittian, Pagan and Ratten...with murmurs there might be a fifth soon. How many clubs win a premiership without an experienced coach?

History shows that stability is important to a premiership side. Richmond has been happy to change coach every three years and where has it got them?

The club mightn't believe Ratten is capable of leading us to a premiership but the amount of coaches we've had is concerning.

 

[Jock]

No is he OK.

We lose 4 on the trot and that changes quickly.

I believe he will be given every chance this season to have his contract renewed.

 

[Alpha1]

Don't think Ratten is in trouble, I think they just wanted to add some experience and have gone about doing it. We have finished in the top eight and I think 2011 we will be pushing for top 5 which is a very good effort.

 

[parrot]

Not saying he's in trouble, but if we were going to boot a coach, now is the right time to do it. Would be very surprised if he's not coaching in 2011, but stranger things have happened.

 

[Jeremias]

He's not in trouble, as far as I'm concerned - at least not any more so than most other coaches in the league.

In 2 full years as coach he has taken us to 2 finals appearances. The simpletons will merely attribute that to the strength of the upper part of our list, but that view is far too simplistic.

He's doing fine at the moment. For 2011, the aim of the club would be a top 6 finish (home final) and a win in the finals. If that does happen, then great - there's no way he'll be sacked. If it doesn't, depending on the circumstances, he may be on shaky ground.

The only way I can see him getting the sack during the season is if we have a nightmare period of 6 or so losses in a row, and are uncompetitive like we were in the Collingwood game in 2010. But realistically, that more than likely will not happen.

Every club gets rid of assistant coaches. The fact that we have hired Brown and Richardson over the past week indicates one thing and one thing only to me - we think we need more experience in the coaching box. People tend to forget that in terms of coaching, Ratten is still very young and relatively inexperienced. Couple that with Harvey, Lappin, Montgomery, Teague - it really is a young coaching group. Getting more experience in there indicates that we want a more 'stable' coaching group rather than one filled with guys that haven't been fully exposed to the rigours of coaching. Sure, having a few young coaches in there is fine, but they shouldn't constitute most or all of the coaches at a club.

The rift with the playing group is a rumour and a rumour only at this stage. I wouldn't be reading too much into it. To expect every player in the league to get on with their coach is just ridiculous and completely unrealistic. I'm not too worried by this perceived exodus - Jacobs, Grigg, Thornton are all fringe players that struggled to break into the senior side in 2010 and realistically that trend would have continued. O'hAilpin is in the same boat. Walker is an interesting one, and can be put down to a player wanting a fresh start after a thus far injury interrupted career - totally understandable, and certainly not unique to Carlton.

Walker is the only one that the club would lose sleep over if we lost him.

Clubs lose players every year. That's not new. The fact that it's players predominantly outside our 22 that want to leave is no cause for concern, and certainly no reason to doubt the coach. It's not his job to play players for the sake of it. It is his job to play players that he believes will generate the best results for us on the field. If players aren't happy about being left out of that, bad luck. You can either sook about it and leave thinking you are more of a chance somewhere else, or you can work hard and fight for a spot.

I know which option would be more respected amongst the supporters.

 

[bluepride]

The fact that he goes out sometimes with the boys for a guys night out does worry me.

The guy can coach, he just needs to distance himself and re establish both his position and the players.

The new external assistants will help ensure that, Ratten is doing his upmost.

 

[BlueTongue]

Not happy about the fast turnover of coaches we've had in recent years.

In the last 10 years, we've had Parkin, Brittian, Pagan and Ratten...with murmurs there might be a fifth soon. How many clubs win a premiership without an experienced coach?

History shows that stability is important to a premiership side. Richmond has been happy to change coach every three years and where has it got them?

The club mightn't believe Ratten is capable of leading us to a premiership but the amount of coaches we've had is concerning.

Which is Kinda what astounds me the most. After the Pagan fiasco you gotta wonder why they didn't take their time in getting someone proven (although I thought Pagan was a good 'proven' choice at the time he was appointed too, and I must admit I was all for Ratts too) rather than just trying to 'heal the damage' with a club legend.

I just hope that if we do get rid of Ratts, then we get someone who is undeniably successful. Matthews, Malthouse, even bring Parko out of retirement!

 

[AndyLucimitis]

I personally had paid much attention to the rumours surrounding Ratten and player discontent.


However, I would ask this question to all of us supporters.


Give me your gut reaction if, after the trade period, you heard Ratten was sacked and Alan Richardson to take over .

My absolute immediate gut reaction would be ' We are on our way' !!.

I can't get around the fact that Ratten does not seem to have a solid game plan and just listening to Richardson on 3AW the other night highlighted how self-assured and organised he sounded.

 

[mediumsizered]

Firstly, I don't recall such a lack of effort from our team over consecutive weeks as that we experienced this year.

Secondly the look of union between coach and players has not been there most year and irrespective of one being right or one wrong we know where this situation usually ends up.

Thirdly, the collective sacking of assistant coaches started the alarm bells for me but the reported non communication of Montgomery's sacking to Swann, really set me back.
I've no proof for this to be right but if it was the case it will not end well for someone.

In response to your first point, over the last decade we have seen some horribly insipid efforts under the coaching of Brittain, Pagan & Ratten, which has reflected our ordinary playing list &/or the lack of mental strength of some of our players (FWIW, we played some crap football between 1989 & 1992 & in 1997/98 as well).

In response to your second point, watch the second half of the EF, or even the Round 22 clash & witness how the players busted a gut to get back into those games. In those two matches, along with our early success in the first half of the season, which took us to 7 & 4 at the halfway stage of the season, I saw players who were playing for their coach, jumper & the club. On top of this, when Ratts started coaching from the boundary you could see how well the players responded to having him down there. It actually seemed to make the relationship between Ratts & the players even stronger.

Thirdly, the sacking of assistant coaches was a recognition that our coaching panel did not measure up to those teams who are outperforming us & the appointment of Richardson & Brown is a step towards closing that gap, with both coaches having development backgrounds.

At any sporting club, AFL or otherwise, when you have a group of 40-50 players, there are always going to be those who think they are not getting a fair go, or who just can't get along with the coach, or who just aren't good enough to get the opportunities they would like. In the short term, those individuals may 'suck it up', whilst having a whinge to some of their colleagues, but in the long run they will eventually move on. The other man's grass is always greener (with the amount of rain falling here on the Gold Coast every man's grass is green).

 

[BlueTongue]

I'm not too worried by this perceived exodus - Jacobs, Grigg, Thornton are all fringe players that struggled to break into the senior side in 2010 and realistically that trend would have continued. O'hAilpin is in the same boat. Walker is an interesting one, and can be put down to a player wanting a fresh start after a thus far injury interrupted career - totally understandable, and certainly not unique to Carlton.

Walker is the only one that the club would lose sleep over if we lost him.

I know which option would be more respected amongst the supporters.

I agreed with most of what you have said except for your comments on Jacobs & Walker, which in my opinion are very much ass-about.

If we lost either Kreuzer or Warnock to injury next year, I would hardly feel confident with Hampson in the ruck. In fact, I believe we'd actually be better off playing 1 ruckman 70-80% gametime and having Hampson giving them a rest for 5-10 mins of the quarter. No way is Hampson in our best 22 and we seemed to cope OK without Walker for most of the season (as we have the majority of his career).

I realise that Jacobs is the one who wants to leave due to the fact he wants more gametime, but he is hardly a fringe player. His departure will hurt us a lot more than Walker's.

 

[HARKER]

I just hope that if we do get rid of Ratts, then we get someone who is undeniably successful. Matthews, Malthouse, even bring Parko out of retirement!

There are many aspects to running a successful organisation and if Ratten (or any other key figure) is seen to be holding back the club from marching forward, be it by way of on field performance, which inadvertantly impacts to off field performance (membership etc.) things have to be done.

I just wonder how the upper echelon may be viewing the Hird appointment and the swell of support & dollars it will bring to the Essendon FC.
I just don't know as to how positve a light Ratten is seen in, whether it be internally or externally.
As cruel as it may be, but if for example a "Laidley" type appointment is seen to attract an extra 5000 members, it may just be hard to hold on.

 

[thylacine60]

A player might just despise another player for any of a million perceived valid reasons. Think anyone on BF could be thrown into a mix of 50 blokes and get along with them all after working, training and living together year after year?

If the player he disliked was a senior figure, he might find it seriously uncomfortable to be at the club and in his company for such a sustained period of time. Getting over the problem is the issue. Clearing the blockage is a far tougher road than just leaving but I can see both sides of the situation.

Also, Grigg's a slimey rat.

 

[BlueTongue]

There are many aspects to running a successful organisation and if Ratten (or any other key figure) is seen to be holding back the club from marching forward, be it by way of on field performance, which inadvertantly impacts to off field performance (membership etc.) things have to be done.

I just wonder how the upper echelon may be viewing the Hird appointment and the swell of support & dollars it will bring to the Essendon FC.
I just don't know as to how positve a light Ratten is seen in, whether it be internally or externally.
As cruel as it may be, but if for example a "Laidley" type appointment is seen to attract an extra 5000 members, it may just be hard to hold on.

Hard to say with Hird. No doubt he will bring a 'whole lotta healing' short term to the club in a fluffy feel-good kinda way, as well as $$$ when the Bombers bandwagon fills up with memberships again, but as a long-term coach I have doubts. There is no doubting the footy smarts, and I'm sure he would be a good tactition, but can you see Hird giving someone like David Hille a big spray if needed? It would be like being chastised by a teddy-bear. I'm unsure if he is going to be able to deliver the kick-in-the-pants to the players when they are down and need to be brought into line.

 

[HARKER]

At any sporting club, AFL or otherwise, when you have a group of 40-50 players, there are always going to be those who think they are not getting a fair go, or who just can't get along with the coach, or who just aren't good enough to get the opportunities they would like. In the short term, those individuals may 'suck it up', whilst having a whinge to some of their colleagues, but in the long run they will eventually move on. The other man's grass is always greener (with the amount of rain falling here on the Gold Coast every man's grass is green).

I am in full recognition of all the points you have outlined and in no way is this a "Should we sack Ratten" poll and for what it is worth, I hope Ratten embraces his new coaches and support staff, where he administers duties and makes the most of what he has been given.
Having said that I sadly do hold some reservations that he will fully comply.

Anyway, there may be some further news here one way or another as I am not completely confident that any talk of Ratten has fully been put to bed for this year, just yet.

 

[krayfesh]

At the very least, Ratten is getting some excellent people around him.

He'll be in trouble if we don't improve on this season though, that's for sure.

 

[HARKER]

A player might just despise another player for any of a million perceived valid reasons. Think anyone on BF could be thrown into a mix of 50 blokes and get along with them all after working, training and living together year after year?

If the player he disliked was a senior figure, he might find it seriously uncomfortable to be at the club and in his company for such a sustained period of time. Getting over the problem is the issue. Clearing the blockage is a far tougher road than just leaving but I can see both sides of the situation.

Also, Grigg's a slimey rat.

In a roundabout way, I have stated that many times over here on BF.
A talent that feels him to be deserving of an easy road through his time in the AFL.

Getting over the problem is the issue and without suggesting anything further, this is often the downfall of many people in all walks of life.
Letting go is imperative for Ratten to blossom. He now has class around him and I only hope he is prepared to use the tools given to him to their full extent

 

[PeeKay]

He's not in trouble, as far as I'm concerned - at least not any more so than most other coaches in the league.

In 2 full years as coach he has taken us to 2 finals appearances. The simpletons will merely attribute that to the strength of the upper part of our list, but that view is far too simplistic.

He's doing fine at the moment. For 2011, the aim of the club would be a top 6 finish (home final) and a win in the finals. If that does happen, then great - there's no way he'll be sacked. If it doesn't, depending on the circumstances, he may be on shaky ground.

The only way I can see him getting the sack during the season is if we have a nightmare period of 6 or so losses in a row, and are uncompetitive like we were in the Collingwood game in 2010. But realistically, that more than likely will not happen.

Every club gets rid of assistant coaches. The fact that we have hired Brown and Richardson over the past week indicates one thing and one thing only to me - we think we need more experience in the coaching box. People tend to forget that in terms of coaching, Ratten is still very young and relatively inexperienced. Couple that with Harvey, Lappin, Montgomery, Teague - it really is a young coaching group. Getting more experience in there indicates that we want a more 'stable' coaching group rather than one filled with guys that haven't been fully exposed to the rigours of coaching. Sure, having a few young coaches in there is fine, but they shouldn't constitute most or all of the coaches at a club.

The rift with the playing group is a rumour and a rumour only at this stage. I wouldn't be reading too much into it. To expect every player in the league to get on with their coach is just ridiculous and completely unrealistic. I'm not too worried by this perceived exodus - Jacobs, Grigg, Thornton are all fringe players that struggled to break into the senior side in 2010 and realistically that trend would have continued. O'hAilpin is in the same boat. Walker is an interesting one, and can be put down to a player wanting a fresh start after a thus far injury interrupted career - totally understandable, and certainly not unique to Carlton.

Walker is the only one that the club would lose sleep over if we lost him.

Clubs lose players every year. That's not new. The fact that it's players predominantly outside our 22 that want to leave is no cause for concern, and certainly no reason to doubt the coach. It's not his job to play players for the sake of it. It is his job to play players that he believes will generate the best results for us on the field. If players aren't happy about being left out of that, bad luck. You can either sook about it and leave thinking you are more of a chance somewhere else, or you can work hard and fight for a spot.

I know which option would be more respected amongst the supporters.

Now that's more like it. A great mature summary of what it's all about. Between this reply and that of "MEDIUMSIZED" I am encouraged that good sensible footy talk is baaaaack on the Big Footy forum.
Well presented and well thought through.
The fact that I agree with you both doesn't matter. It's the thought process I have enjoyed.
I dips me lid to you both.

 

[btdg]

Not happy about the fast turnover of coaches we've had in recent years.

In the last 10 years, we've had Parkin, Brittian, Pagan and Ratten...with murmurs there might be a fifth soon. How many clubs win a premiership without an experienced coach?

History shows that stability is important to a premiership side. Richmond has been happy to change coach every three years and where has it got them?

The club mightn't believe Ratten is capable of leading us to a premiership but the amount of coaches we've had is concerning.

Consider our success and number of coaches, decade by decade:
1960-1970: 2 coaches, 2 premierships
1971-1980: 4 coaches (plus 3 interim coaches), 2 premierships
1981-1990: 3 coaches, 3 premierships
1991-2000: 1 coach, 1 premiership
2001-2010: 3 coaches, 0 premierships

Interestingly, in our longest ever premiership drought (23 years from 1915-1938), we had 11 different coaches in full-time roles. In our second-longest drought, from 1947-1968, we had just 4 different coaches, keeping coaches for 7, 4 and 6 years of nothingness before Barassi broke the drought.Also interesting is that Richmond's last coach lasted 5 years, and they went no-where.

Conclusion? Coaching turnover doesn't really seem to have much to do with success. What is important is getting the right coach for the team at the right time. This has been Richmond's biggest problem - being unable to properly assess the ability of their coach. If you look at their coaching more closely, they have had 11 coaches since 1980. Here they are ranked by win %, with the number of games they lasted for included:

1. Francis Bourke: 46 games - 56%
2. Jeff Gieschen: 51 games - 51%
3. John Northey: 67 games - 48%
4. Mike Patterson: 22 games - 45%
5. Robert Walls: 43 games - 43%
6. Paul Sproule: 22 games - 40%
7. Danny Frawley: 113 games - 39%
8. Terry Wallace: 99 games - 38%
9. Kevin Bartlett: 88 games - 30%
10. Damien Hardwick: 22 games (and counting) - 29%
11. Allan Jeans: 22 games - 22%

What is apparent with Richmond is two things. Firstly, the short tenure given to Bourke and Gieschen, the only two coaches they had with 50% or more wins. Combine that with Northey's departure and Jeans (an absolute superstar coach) being given just 1 years, and Richmond do appear to have an issue with getting rid of coaches too early. But a far worse problem comes from the coaches they held onto for too long. Frawley, Wallace and Bartlett have had the longest tenure in that time - and the lowest win percentage!

The conclusion is this: Hang onto good coaches, get rid of crappy coaches, but most importantly be sure that you are capable of evaluating which is which

 

[DarkTint]

In response to your first point, over the last decade we have seen some horribly insipid efforts under the coaching of Brittain, Pagan & Ratten, which has reflected our ordinary playing list &/or the lack of mental strength of some of our players (FWIW, we played some crap football between 1989 & 1992 & in 1997/98 as well).

In response to your second point, watch the second half of the EF, or even the Round 22 clash & witness how the players busted a gut to get back into those games. In those two matches, along with our early success in the first half of the season, which took us to 7 & 4 at the halfway stage of the season, I saw players who were playing for their coach, jumper & the club. On top of this, when Ratts started coaching from the boundary you could see how well the players responded to having him down there. It actually seemed to make the relationship between Ratts & the players even stronger.

Thirdly, the sacking of assistant coaches was a recognition that our coaching panel did not measure up to those teams who are outperforming us & the appointment of Richardson & Brown is a step towards closing that gap, with both coaches having development backgrounds.

At any sporting club, AFL or otherwise, when you have a group of 40-50 players, there are always going to be those who think they are not getting a fair go, or who just can't get along with the coach, or who just aren't good enough to get the opportunities they would like. In the short term, those individuals may 'suck it up', whilst having a whinge to some of their colleagues, but in the long run they will eventually move on. The other man's grass is always greener (with the amount of rain falling here on the Gold Coast every man's grass is green).

Amen.