Is West the problem?

[Jumping Jack]

I know he's battled admirably but I've got no doubt the problem lies directly, or perhaps indirectly with West.

Not his fault that Ottens retired but as Mooney said on radio today "West is a back up ruck man not a first choice". As for everyone banging on about Orren he also had this ... "he needs to be able to go forward and kick goals and I don't think the club is confident he can do it in the AFL, a big jump from VFL and I'm not sure he can do it". Firstly, the fact that Mooney says this publicly would suggest that it's a view his close mates at the club agree with (privately).

So where does that leave West? Well, the main point I'm making is that you need look no further than clearances. This is where we've fallen away sharply and why Scott is desperate for Simpson to play - urgently. West is competing at centre bounces and stoppages but clearly that's all he's doing. There is clearly no synergy between him and the midfield and I don't think he directs the ball and puts it down their throats - as the better ruck man do (see Ottens). Watch the footage closely ... He gets hands to the ball but I don't reckon he knows - or the midfield know where it's going.

He has done a great job and I still think he's in our best 22. Last year proved that, but he's no A Grader. Scott desperately needs Simpson or Vardy and I reckon he knows that contested possession will be a problem until then. Mooney made the point also that Vardy being out was "MASSIVE".

I still think we're good enough to grind out enough wins but the ruck situation is the root of all our problems, as much as I know West has battled ..... But that's all he's done.

Having said all that I'm convinced that Geelong can get it together and might well win back to back flags from outside top four. If anyone can - they can.

 

[thejester]

Re: West = The Problem

Can someone explain to me this new found obsession with Dawson Simpson as the second coming of Jesus? What makes you think a guy with two senior games to his name is going to come in and have 'synergy' with the midfield group?

 

[pinion]

Re: West = The Problem

a better thread title would be 'lack of a genuine ruck = the problem'

it's very harsh to single out a player who is being relied on as much as west is. agree with most of the sentiments though. he's a good second ruck who can go forward and cause a miss-match.

 

[manboob]

Re: West = The Problem

Yeah its like saying Motlop at CHB = the problem.

 

[Jumping Jack]

Re: West = The Problem

I agree 100% but therein lies the problem ..... Scott keeps mentioning Simpson which suggests 2 things to me.

1: He knows West is not the answer
2: He is clutching at straws that a 2 gamer is the answer

I'm confused as to why Orren isn't playing but then Mooneys comments made it clearer. With the new sub rule you can't carry 2 dinosaurs if one or preferably both can't go forward and kick goals.

Cox Natanui
Bellchambers Ryder
Kruzer Hampson

This is what we're missing and why Scott keeps wheeling out West on his own and pinch hitting with Hawkins ....... And why we're getting killed in clearances.

Perhaps the thread title is harsh but centre bounces and stoppages is why we're 10th after 7 rounds.

 

[bulletproof]

Re: West = The Problem

I think the problem more lies with the decline of Chapman and Corey, the inconsistency of Christensen and Duncan, Kelly's poor form and Bartel being used all over the place except in the middle.

West has been one of our better performed players this year in terms of head to head battle with his opponent (s).

A solution to the ruck is not a magic bullet solution. We are being hurt by bigger, harder running opponents in the middle. End of.

 

[Jumping Jack]

Re: West = The Problem

I think the problem more lies with the decline of Chapman and Corey, the inconsistency of Christensen and Duncan, Kelly's poor form and Bartel being used all over the place except in the middle.

West has been one of our better performed players this year in terms of head to head battle with his opponent (s).

A solution to the ruck is not a magic bullet solution. We are being hurt by bigger, harder running opponents in the middle. End of.

Can't say I agree but I'm sure everyone has a view, I'm just expressing what I think is our problem. I think the ruck is the magic bullet solution right now .... You can't tell me a West Vardy, West Simpson, Vardy Simpson combination would not be better than the current set up. Don't you also think if the coach thought we could improve with West and Big O he would select both?

As for your comment about bigger, harder running bodies ...... Perhaps you're right but I'd still back a Bartel, Selwood, Kelly, Corey, Christensen Duncan rotation come September provided we could give them supply and centre bounce and clearances.

Go back and watch Ottens in the first 15 seconds of the GF ....... Strong contest and follow up. West gets lost in there and once the ball is bounced he's not influencing the next contest.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

Re: West = The Problem

Welcome to the bandwagon ive been on for weeks. Dawson might be a 2 game player, but he has done a 5 year apprenticeship, is 206 cm, 110kgs and agile with great aggression and great skills. Cant wait for him to get back.

 

[Big Fozza]

Re: West = The Problem

west is not the problem. lack of premium no. 1 ruck maybe

for what West has been tasked with he has done excellent.

so is the club saying that the o stephensen experiment has been a failure. i still say we need to give him a solid run of games to prove or disprove that he can make it in afl.

 

[Big Fozza]

Re: West = The Problem

Welcome to the bandwagon ive been on for weeks. Dawson might be a 2 game player, but he has done a 5 year apprenticeship, is 206 cm, 110kgs and agile with great aggression and great skills. Cant wait for him to get back.

if we are leaving our hopes in a 2 game ruckman then we are in a wort situation than i had thought

 

[manboob]

Re: West = The Problem

I am starting to see your point catsmaninamerica... He is, now I'm not sure of the technical term they use but I think it's "unit"...

 

[bulletproof]

Re: West = The Problem

Yes all true JJ but let's not forget we gave up two first round picks for Ottens, he was one of the best big men in the League for a decade. Little harsh on West (and Simpson for that matter) to expect this would be easily replaced. I think the midfielders have let us down more.

I suspect our pre-season was not as tough as some of our opponents, which was probably the only option we had given the football we have played, as we don't appear to have the conditioning of some of the other sides.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

Re: West = The Problem

if we are leaving our hopes in a 2 game ruckman then we are in a wort situation than i had thought

Round 3, 2007, Joel Selwood was a 2 game player in his first year. First year players can make a MASSIVE difference. Dawson has done a 5 year apprenticeship. Will be a HUGE in!

 

[footscore]

Re: West = The Problem

I tend to disagree because if you are going to highlight a player as the cause for problems you need to be able to back it up with data and from I see, he's actually doing better than many could have imagined.

Although he has played every game this year as the main ruck you still can't ignore the fact he averages 27 hitouts per game (6th overall), the most pressure acts out of all the ruckman and this is massive in finals. He doesn't stop working and he's a similar player to a younger version of Melbourne's Mark Jamar who many rate as a top 10 ruckman.

He's kicked 4 behinds so he really needs to get reward for his effort and that will come if he continues to do all the little things.
His marking was a highlight last year but he's failed to add that into his game this season and that's due to playing as the main ruck all game as he always has a fresh ruckman to contend with.
Dawson Simpson is still going to take a very long time to get back into the team.
I'd suspect a good 3 months or more in the VFL just building up his fitness levels before even contemplating seniors.

 

[Stab Pass]

Re: West = The Problem

West has played 30 games. I wonder how Ottens would have gone at the same time in his career? I'm guessing no better playing as the lone ruckman. West is what we have and Simpson isn't going to suddenly make a huge difference. He's coming off a long term injury, has had no pre-season and if he was that good he would have played more than 2 games by now. Ottens work at centre bounces was very good, but he'd also had 7 or 8 seasons with the key guys in the middle to get used to each other.

 

[Vdubs]

Re: West = The Problem

West has played 30 games. I wonder how Ottens would have gone at the same time in his career? I'm guessing no better playing as the lone ruckman. West is what we have and Simpson isn't going to suddenly make a huge difference. He's coming off a long term injury, has had no pre-season and if he was that good he would have played more than 2 games by now. Ottens work at centre bounces was very good, but he'd also had 7 or 8 seasons with the key guys in the middle to get used to each other.

IIRC, we recruited Ottens MAINLY for his potential as a KF, but with King's injuries, Ottens showed true worth as a ruck, and the rest is history.

 

[Turbocat]

Re: West = The Problem

The problem is .... but the solution is ????

Ottens keeps being brought up. Mooney is entitled to his POV but its an opinion. Ottens in the paper today again , just seems to me another example of superficial , intellectual analysis . Just how many games did Ottens play in the first 9 rounds in 2008 , what about 2009 how many games between R3 & R21 ? Yet we still kept winning , amazing. Blake must have been a awesome ruckman or was it something else. Thats why I think its more than just West.

Its our mid group, its our form of mature players , the slightly less than cannonball hard youth we have , the overdose of newness causing a lack of confidence that seemed so natural before that we have forgotten it takes a while to build up.

Would it be our list is now a little older and we are trying to balance training so we can maximise our list. Would it be we are not as sharp as the others because they have pushed it far closer to the edge. Look at Essendon they have injuries , a lot caused by body fatigue. Yet thats the cost they are prepared to wear.We know the importance of having the right guys fit at the right time and that has tapered our approach to training. Remember the late start in 2010 that didn't work. It takes little to tip the scales and maybe other clubs are pushing further than us atm.

Would it be our boys just can't hammer in like they once could? Some say its contentment , 3 in 5 years would make some put their feet up but maybe its just they are feeling it a little more. Experience is an educator and not many hit in as hard at the end of careers as they did when young. Age knows pain and how long the pain takes to dull.

For mine , no one would deny that a better quality ruckman would improve the side , just as a better quality , mid or forward or back would. An Ottens in 2007 form again right now would be interesting.How much he could help? But as the are no DeLorean's parked at KP, we have to go with what we have.

Perhaps we can look around next year (probably rel to another thread) perhaps our underlings will be capable if they are fit but thats a big if. One kid has played 9 games , the other 2. Neither have shown they are resilient , neither have shown they can produce regularly.

So we go with what we have , West and OS. I actually think West has done well but Id like to see OS get a go, maybe that will happen if West gets a rest. OS is actually a very good palmer. But both give us an issue when Pods and Hawkins , when the 2 big strong power forwards are playing.And as much as anything this is an issue. Our two ruck guys are lumbering, if we had one that was Ryder like I'd say we would be better off in the ruck. (But as I said before we cant play what we don't have)

 

[Vdubs]

Re: West = The Problem

The problem for us, as it is for any team that has had success, or maybe hasn't, is that great players retire and it is virtually impossible with salary cap/ drafting restrictions to replace them, and much as Ottens was often absent, he was a freak of a player, and that is compounded by losing depth in Mooney, Ling and our injuries. West is not the problem, he has continued from where he finished last year. But he was the support act to Ottens last year, now he is IT. Just not going to be as successful as what we had.

We can hope that our rucks in the making will stand up, but it will take time, not this year. Any expectations of some miraculous return to last years form and results is just that --HOPE only, not realistic given what we need to replace. That is NOT PESSIMISM.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Re: West = The Problem

Can someone explain to me this new found obsession with Dawson Simpson as the second coming of Jesus? What makes you think a guy with two senior games to his name is going to come in and have 'synergy' with the midfield group?

Fair point.

People are right to point out there's a problem for us in this area (the ruck) but to assume that it will all simply be solved when a 2 gamer comes off the injury list is an extreme case of optimism IMO.

I also think West is doing a pretty good job at the moment. Whether the strategy (one ruck) is right is debatable (personally I think it isn't) but he's giving a good contest given the load he's being expected to carry.

 

[footscore]

Re: West = The Problem

Whether the strategy (one ruck) is right is debatable

Is Melbourne the only other team in 2012 who have played the one ruck?

 

[STC]

Re: West = The Problem

Orren has to play Friday. If the club knew West wasn't a number 1 ruck and Vardy would miss most/all of the season, they pinned their hopes on one of Simpson or Stephenson.

We only have 2 fit rucks and if one isn't good enough by himself then the other one has to come in.

As for Dawson, he may not be the second coming of Jesus but he's taller and stronger than either of Vardy or West and I think that's why people are hoping he'll come good. West & Vardy are both only 198cm (with Vardy a full 10kgs lighter than West at just 94) so it's hard to see either of them coming good as a sole ruckman. Both are reasonably mobile and have perhaps above average skills for a ruck but Simpson as our tallest and heaviest player seems the right sort to be crashing the packs like Otto used to.

For what it's worth West's hitout numbers are very similar to Ottens' last year (slightly ahead at this stage) and I'd say that there has been an increase in stoppages as a whole because the numbers seem to grow every year on average, but Blake's even in 08 were much lower (although he was ranked 5th in the league whereas West and Ottens are both 10th in the years compared). So what does that mean? Our midfielders probably aren't getting the ball from the stoppages as much even if we're "winning" enough hitouts.

 

[footscore]

Re: West = The Problem

I think that's why people are hoping he'll come good. West & Vardy are both only 198cm (with Vardy a full 10kgs lighter than West at just 94) so it's hard to see either of them coming good as a sole ruckman.

I know there are others in here who went to quite a few more VFL matches last year than myself but we went to see 5 matches across Victoria and I saw Dawson in each one of them and he was definitely going to be a good ruckman, no doubts about that.

Now that he had the back surgery, I am unsure if he will ever reach his full potential.
He moves very well for a big guy, he hasn't got the best of leaps but due to his height he was winning most of the centre square taps but his stoppage work was excellent and I think that's the key. He didn't give away free kicks at stoppages and always got front position and we'd usually win the clearances from there.
Was when Bundy & Cowan where starring and Simpson was working beautifully with those two in particular.
He spent a lot of time coming off and on the ground and every time he came off the ground, was absolutely buggered. Was definitely getting overworked as many had a feeling he'd break through into the seniors by late July or early August so it was paramount his cardio was amplified as much as possible.
His marking isn't crash hot, didn't take many contested grabs at all but his agility for such a big person was terrific.

We gotta remember that we are use to see these bigger blokes running up and down a 30 metre basketball and not a 170 metre football oval

 

[JapanFootball]

Re: West = The Problem

Haha, singling one guy out and saying that he is the problem with our club at the moment or that the inclusion of one player is going to change our fortunes is going just a little bit too far. I have watched every game this year, and I think that West is one of the few players who can actually hold his head high. He is playing against guys bigger and stronger than him, and has more than matched it with nearly all of them. He puts his body on the line in one of the most physically demanding positions on the field week in, week out.

Compare this to some of the other guys. I've seen squibbing all over the field this year and it has been embarrassing. I'm not just talking about the young players either. To blame West alone for our situation is ridiculous.

 

[Son_Of_God29]

Re: West = The Problem

Cut Westy some slack guys as has been posted previously the guy has played 30 games and we need to be paitent I dont think OS has done enough to convince CS he is the answer as a No 1 ruckman even if he dominated @ VFL the step up is getting more and more hard to make.

If you look back at the 2011 finals Series most of the good work was done by Westy when Otto went forward West can Ruck and is not the problem

- Freo have the biggest man to Ever play the game and still lose contested posession and clearences, If they players want it enough then they will fix it have faith

 

[topic97]

Re: West = The Problem

The problem is .... but the solution is ????

Ottens keeps being brought up. Mooney is entitled to his POV but its an opinion. Ottens in the paper today again , just seems to me another example of superficial , intellectual analysis . Just how many games did Ottens play in the first 9 rounds in 2008 , what about 2009 how many games between R3 & R21 ? Yet we still kept winning , amazing. Blake must have been a awesome ruckman or was it something else. Thats why I think its more than just West.

Hit the nail on the head there.
Sure we are missing Ottens who was a fantastic ruck, but there are two glaring omissions from our midfield in those years that may have just finally caught up to us.

I think with the midfield we had those years, even the biggest spud of a ruck would have been made to look like a champion - Bartel, Sellwood, Ling.... oh yeah and Ablett.

Of those core 4 players, only one of them is playing as a 100% onballer, Bartel is being moved from pillar to post and we no longer have the other two, one being the best player in the comp.

I certainly think Orren needs to be bought back in and play dual ruck for a while and see how it goes, but by no means is solely improving our ruck division going to solve all the problems.