Is West the problem?

[Pure_Ownage]

I've actually hear of a rumour that the Cats might be looking at McIntosh from the Roos. Dunno where the rumour started or even if Big H is contracted or not but lets say we DO go after him, that would alleviate those ruck problems for the short to medium term....
I do think the Cats will chase a senior proven ruckman in the trade period tho regardless of the accuracy of the above.

I hope it's not. Ruckman at 28yo, who has spent the last 2 years injured, who would only give us 4 years if we are lucky and cost far too much trade wise. Much better and cheaper options out there if we feel we need another ruckman.

 

[Senatorguesty]

I hope it's not. Ruckman at 28yo, who has spent the last 2 years injured, who would only give us 4 years if we are lucky and cost far too much trade wise. Much better and cheaper options out there if we feel we need another ruckman.

I tend to agree, and like I said its just a rumour that I havent heard elsewhere....

 

[DanA]

You think it mightn't be due to lack of opportunity perhaps? In West's case is could have had something to do with Ottens, Blake and Mumford all being ahead of him.

So what you're saying is, if you're not a star by age 23 then there's no hope right? In that case delist them both, go out and buy a ruckman or two and see how well it works.

Once again the golden boy Vardy gets mentioned. What has he done - so far - that makes people think he's going to be instantly so much better? He's going to take time just as West has (and is) and Simpson will. Cannot wait to see how patient people will be with him.

Mark Blake? Come on he isn't all that and the Mumford at Geelong was a rookie a long way form the one we see today. Opportunity was there for West to rack up more games but he never took them. I'm not saying West needs to be delisted either nor other 23 y/o's that haven't stood out. What I am saying is we shouldn't be relying on them to carry the team. West is more than capable in a support role. But I see a Leigh Brown future rather than Brad Ottens.

Vardy is the goldenboy for a reason too. It's because his performances have been on par with West's despite being several years younger. He's got a much higher ceiling but you are right he will take time, I think though at 25 he'll be twice the player West is.

 

[Topper]

Among the many stupid things that happen in football now, one of the dumbest is comparing new players to established ones and thinking they have to emulate them. To me Vardy looks a far more natural ruckman than a forward. But, he will take time. He's not going to be the best ruckman in the competition next year and he won't be kicking 50 goals either.

Just because Mooney says something doesn't mean it's gospel either.

I think its more along the lines of he's seen as being a similar style player, not the "next" Reiwoldt.

By making a comment like this it's a quick way of describing how someone plays, because we all know what type of player Reiwoldt is, rather than describing every attribute of Vardy.

And I think Mooney may know a little more than we in here

 

[cynical]

I would like to see it but it would make us too top heavy, until Simpson is fitter we can't play both regularly. Simpson also doesn't have the ability to make an impact when forward that West does. West has ben doing a great job, battling one out most weeks and still breaking even with the opposition ruckmen, and rucking 90 % or more by himself. And still taking marks and kicking goals when forward.

Sure, he could be much better if he was able to spend more time up forward if we had another good ruckman to take some ruck load, but we don't, not right now anyway. At the moment he is the best ruckman we have by far and he is doing a very good job.

We dont need Simpson to go forward much, that is the point of being No1 ruck. He rucks 60% goes forward 10% and thats if we get an injury and has to stay on the ground. Most cases he can be subbed.

West can ruck 40% and go forward 35%.

Winning hit outs and clearances is way more important than having an extra runner especially with an old team like ours. We are terrible without possession.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

We dont need Simpson to go forward much, that is the point of being No1 ruck. He rucks 60% goes forward 10% and thats if we get an injury and has to stay on the ground. Most cases he can be subbed.

West can ruck 40% and go forward 35%.

Winning hit outs and clearances is way more important than having an extra runner especially with an old team like ours. We are terrible without possession.

We do because it is the era of the sub rule now which means he can't clog up the bench where you have three not four. No ruck is spending 30 % of the game on the bench, in fact they'd be lucky to spend more than 10 % of it on the bench. Either Simpson has to be fit enough to ruck the vast majority of the game (ie. 80 % at least, like West does) or he has to be effective when resting forward. Since I haven't seen much of the second option when he plays in the vfl, I prefer the first option, but it may require a few weeks before Dawson is fit enough for that. We can't play him each week with the caveat that he has to be subbed, that's simply too dangerous if we get another injury early etc, it is better to play him once he's fully fit endurance wise.

 

[Partridge]

We do because it is the era of the sub rule now which means he can't clog up the bench where you have three not four. No ruck is spending 30 % of the game on the bench, in fact they'd be lucky to spend more than 10 % of it on the bench. Either Simpson has to be fit enough to ruck the vast majority of the game (ie. 80 % at least, like West does) or he has to be effective when resting forward. Since I haven't seen much of the second option when he plays in the vfl, I prefer the first option, but it may require a few weeks before Dawson is fit enough for that. We can't play him each week with the caveat that he has to be subbed, that's simply too dangerous if we get another injury early etc, it is better to play him once he's fully fit endurance wise.

At least when he hasn't been playing seniors the last few weeks he has been getting full games in the seconds. And playing well. So hopefully he'll get in and stay in soon.

This is where we mildly disagree though - we played 2 specialist ruckmen and 2 specialist key forwards last year. In September. The game hasn't changed that much in less than 12 months.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

That can't even be claimed as an excuse now. Simpson is fit and is playing well in the reserves. It might hurt us with a little bit of overall speed (not that it matters), but to me they've got to play both ruckmen. For one thing they'll be better for the experience and you can still rest West up forward.

Definitely would have been worth a try on Saturday night (with Pods missing), in my opinion. I think the thing about Ottens and West (and Vardy, for that matter) playing forward last year, is that even if they weren't kicking goals, they had to be respected, as relatively dangerous forwards. When Simpson comes into the team, he doesn't have to be Paul Salmon, just play roughly a quarter (all up) in the forward line, create a contest and bust a pack every so often, when he gets the chance.

I think another aspect of having the ruckman forward, even if he's not a noted goalkicker, is the opposing ruckman has to make a choice whether to go into your forward line every time to contest at any stoppages. Having a genuine ruckman at every contest in your forward line (the position where most ruckmen tend to stay away, so they can get a quick rest) is a huge advantage. Just heading to the boundary line from defence when you're under pressure is no longer the safe option it usually is, if your opponent is tapping the ball down to his small forwards at will from the throw in. If Simpson can do that, there's not reason why he couldn't give us value with 50-55% game time in the ruck, 25% forward and the rest on the bench.

 

[catswhiskers]

We can toss this around forever. So I will.

I am now thinking that we should go to the 2011 flag structure at least. Two rucks. Two talls forward and three talls back.
Then it is which ruck Simpson or Stevo? - I favour the future - go Simpson (if injured Orren comes in next)
Which tall forwards? Walker or Pods. Again I'd go the kid.

*This has one almost certain benefit (we saw it last year's finals series) - it improves Wests impact.
*Another is we have more games in kids and a clearer picture re trading- e.g. do we trade for a ruck?
*Also we won't have Hawkins or Walker rucking against a ruck (eg essendon,toasters) and so should lose fewer clearances for those periods when West is rested.

 

[Partridge]

Mark Blake? Come on he isn't all that and the Mumford at Geelong was a rookie a long way form the one we see today. Opportunity was there for West to rack up more games but he never took them. I'm not saying West needs to be delisted either nor other 23 y/o's that haven't stood out. What I am saying is we shouldn't be relying on them to carry the team. West is more than capable in a support role. But I see a Leigh Brown future rather than Brad Ottens.

Vardy is the goldenboy for a reason too. It's because his performances have been on par with West's despite being several years younger. He's got a much higher ceiling but you are right he will take time, I think though at 25 he'll be twice the player West is.

No they haven't. Check the stats if you don't believe me. He wasn't taking 10 marks a game last year despite popular mythology. He might be twice as good at 25. But right now he isn't as good.

And West is miles better than Leigh Brown ever was. No one said we should rely on him. We shouldn't rely on any one player. What we need to know is do we have a developing ruck combination good enough for the future? I think with West, Simpson and Vardy they will.

 

[Partridge]

We can toss this around forever. So I will.

I am now thinking that we should go to the 2011 flag structure at least. Two rucks. Two talls forward and three talls back.
Then it is which ruck Simpson or Stevo? - I favour the future - go Simpson (if injured Orren comes in next)
Which tall forwards? Walker or Pods. Again I'd go the kid.

*This has one almost certain benefit (we saw it last year's finals series) - it improves Wests impact.
*Another is we have more games in kids and a clearer picture re trading- e.g. do we trade for a ruck?
*Also we won't have Hawkins or Walker rucking against a ruck (eg essendon,toasters) and so should lose fewer clearances for those periods when West is rested.

Agree with that. I'd go with Simpson / West. That could be our combination (hopefully) for the next 5 years. Why not given them games now? I'm not sure about Walker, though he may surprise me. Having said that, I'd love to see either of Brown or Walker get a solid run in the seniors.

And the points are all spot on.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

At least when he hasn't been playing seniors the last few weeks he has been getting full games in the seconds. And playing well. So hopefully he'll get in and stay in soon.

This is where we mildly disagree though - we played 2 specialist ruckmen and 2 specialist key forwards last year. In September. The game hasn't changed that much in less than 12 months.

The game hasn't changed but West is a better forward than Dawson and Dawson is a better ruckman than West. This was so last year and hasn't changed now.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see two rucks, but what I am saying is that Dawson has to be fully fit for that structure to work, exhibit a look at how fit West has had to be to handle as much of the rucking duties as he has. We need Dawson to do the same thing so West can go forward, it doesn't work as well if those roles are reversed.

Hopefully Dawson is almost there fitness wise and we can do it soon.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

Re: West = The Problem

Can someone explain to me this new found obsession with Dawson Simpson as the second coming of Jesus? What makes you think a guy with two senior games to his name is going to come in and have 'synergy' with the midfield group?

LOL.

 

[catswhiskers]

LOL.

I don't think most are saying he is a great ruckman. The fact is we don't know yet what he can do. He does show nearly all the attributes that good first ruckman use to effect, but only glimpses.

He needs exposure to find out whether these glimpses will become real output. As I have said before, precious few had much time for West in his first 5 years. Now with 35 games he is looking better each week and may become a real asset in 2012-17.

Our problems, and we have many, may be best served by giving Simpson exposure. As I said it does have advantages (NOT because he will be a game breaker this weekend or this year but because it offers OTHER advantages).

 

[footscore]

Simpson's gonna take months to be up to the standards of AFL. Unfortunately when you have back surgery and stand 6ft'10 + 110kg, you will take a lot longer to get fit than anyone else returning from a similar injury.
Not to mention he's played less than 5 senior games and ruckman usually find their feet after 40 odd matches

Not surprised people are worrying about our ruck stocks
they all still yet to play 50 games combined

 

[Belisarius]

Not a problem anymore. Just announced on Channel 7 West will sign a new 2 year deal.

Good news - as he will become a good second ruckman - ideal player with the sub rule around.

You would think Simpson and West will be the ruck duo in the future and Simpson gets subbed off mid third term for a runner.

 

[dazbroncos]

Great to see Westy get on board. Just shortens the list of people that could leave - not saying they will - but less is better.

GO Catters

 

[Partridge]

Not a problem anymore. Just announced on Channel 7 West will sign a new 2 year deal.

Good news - as he will become a good second ruckman - ideal player with the sub rule around.

You would think Simpson and West will be the ruck duo in the future and Simpson gets subbed off mid third term for a runner.

Makes sense to me. That seemed to work pretty well when they've tried it so far this year.

 

[dazbroncos]

No - West is not the problem. Nor he is the total solution either - But he is part of the solution and an important one at that. 24 yo, goal kicking big jumping ruck man with the ability to go to ground and follow up the contested ball if important to us - See Otto.

Im not saying he is Otto, but he is benefitting from his coaching and I;ve really liked his follow up efforts of late.

GO Catters