Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

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Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[faible]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-working-to-block-feared-icc-arrest-warrants-against-pm-others-over-gaza-war/

 

[Not Important]

in many respects, this genocide will go down in history as worse than the horrific holocaust. and the world has by and large stood by and done nothing. shameful!

 

[Not Important]

the holocaust won’t be forgotten, but israel will never be forgiven, never.



nor will the involvement of the yanks be forgotten. love this passionate compassionate lady.

 

[Not Important]

please, folks, watch this. antony is a shining light. someone who gives us hope that zionist hate and evil aren’t endemic.



these wonderful human beings too.

 

[Trouto]

Bibi needs the war to stave off corruption charges.

He is a corrupt shot whose mother should have swallowed. Yes I went there. Bibi can sue me for defamation if he likes go * himself

He represents the ruling faction, they are all like he is. They will paint him as a "bad apple" and throw him to the wolves and say all is well now, when in reality its the whole Zionist agenda Bibi is implementing

 

[Saint]

For nearly a century, school kids have learned that the Holocaust was the worst and that we should learn the lessons so they never happen again.

Now, all the people who learned that lesson are protesting against Genocide and the authorities are trying to stop them.

Might as well take holocaust history out of the school curriculum now. Zionist groups are declaring opposition to genocide as anti-semitic.

Here's all the things Israel have done/is doing which I was taught we shouldn't do in my holocaust classes.

Created a ghetto for people they didn't want in their own ethnically-pure state.
Demonise people as "other".
Create a fascist military state.
Murdering tens of thousands of women and children based on their ethnicity.
Not allowing the outside world to see what they're doing.
Killing people who come to help them.
Starving the civilian population in an occupied territory.
Stealing the land and ethnically cleansing people from conquered territory.

Genocide education no longer belongs to talking specifically about the holocaust. Israel and Rwanda are both very good lessons about how the victim becomes the perpetrator and that deference to the victim's leaders should not extend to ignoring their violent tendencies. (Same reason you wouldn't let Hamas in charge).

 

[Saint]

Hamas are claiming responsibility for a rocket attack from Lebanon.

So now, even if Israel blows Rafah into the sky, they'll never be able to claim to have eradicated Hamas.

And Hamas and Hezbollah want Israel to invade Lebanon. They know Netanyahu has to keep the war going and they know any expansion will be met with complete derision from the UN and around the globe.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Assuming the accusation is fact based it’s a bit short sighted of the pro Israel side to appear to be protecting the legacy of a child sex trafficker (you can throw in the word alleged if needed I take his suicide as guilt)

There is speculation that Epstein blackmailed his influential "friends" ( pretty stupid on their behalf, its a strategy that's been going on throughout history ), and that he did work for the Israeli government as well as others.

I think its only speculation, and i'd suggest they are protesting against the treatment of that speculation as fact, rather than protecting Epstein's legacy.

The suggestion is that Epstein purposely "provided" ( I believe they were paid well, so is that trafficking? Not sure of all the details ) underage girls, because it made the blackmail that much more effective. They can't get out of it by coming clean and saying sorry. Whatever the case he was one sick puppy.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

For nearly a century, school kids have learned that the Holocaust was the worst and that we should learn the lessons so they never happen again.

Now, all the people who learned that lesson are protesting against Genocide and the authorities are trying to stop them.

Might as well take holocaust history out of the school curriculum now. Zionist groups are declaring opposition to genocide as anti-semitic.

Here's all the things Israel have done/is doing which I was taught we shouldn't do in my holocaust classes.

Created a ghetto for people they didn't want in their own ethnically-pure state.
Demonise people as "other".
Create a fascist military state.
Murdering tens of thousands of women and children based on their ethnicity.
Not allowing the outside world to see what they're doing.
Killing people who come to help them.
Starving the civilian population in an occupied territory.
Stealing the land and ethnically cleansing people from conquered territory.

Genocide education no longer belongs to talking specifically about the holocaust. Israel and Rwanda are both very good lessons about how the victim becomes the perpetrator and that deference to the victim's leaders should not extend to ignoring their violent tendencies. (Same reason you wouldn't let Hamas in charge).

It isn't now and it never was. If someone was taught that the holocaust was the only specific instance of genocide than, that's a pretty poor education.

Genocide as a term is relatively new, the act of genocide isn't.

Genocide has been committed as long as humans could walk.

Every single country on planet earth has been conquered at one point in time in history. And all that conquering involved varying degrees of genocide every single time.

 

[blackcat]

Bibi may have been enabled all way back to a '09 policy paper in DC , this is way after Cheney had left Pennsylvania Avenue

Iran Russia Venezuela is about China's hydrocarbon sink , they have no energy resources to drive a modern economy , nb. fracking will not supply US neither , their shallow wells are less abundant and per.unit costs rising fast

#anotheroneofblackcatsgeopoliticslectures

#heorsheisalwaysright

#jakesullivan80scamberwelltvgeoffreyrushheritageoverlay

 

[blackcat]

There is speculation that Epstein blackmailed his influential "friends" ( pretty stupid on their behalf, its a strategy that's been going on throughout history ), and that he did work for the Israeli government as well as others.

I think its only speculation, and i'd suggest they are protesting against the treatment of that speculation as fact, rather than protecting Epstein's legacy.

The suggestion is that Epstein purposely "provided" ( I believe they were paid well, so is that trafficking? Not sure of all the details ) underage girls, because it made the blackmail that much more effective. They can't get out of it by coming clean and saying sorry. Whatever the case he was one sick puppy.

WhitneyWebb mordechaivanunu menzies clinton jfk

 

[blackcat]

he did work for the Israeli government as well as others.

he was gun-for-hire

he had about 5 different passports , Russia Saud Italy Israel (not_sure_if_UK) registered to different names same JE physiognomy

i would not be surprised if his death was staged , tho i would not be surprised if that body on a guerney was actually T.H.E. corpse of JE

#anotherblackcat101gepolitixlectureforcherfyourwelcome[sic]

see: #WhitneyWebb's book

Feds (alphabet agencies) have got all the blackmail information and film footage of sex-blackmail

Want an .a c.t.u.a.l. conspiracy ? a certain Australian basketballer was tied into this current wave and moral-scare in America ? how so blackcat ? A: well how did they come by the info ? the hs girl ? her friends ? her family ?

A: if it was not (B)her friends . It may have been Feds , flooding the zone , because they know everything in the Bentham panopticon.

 

[blackcat]

More Zionist lies.
This isn't about Hamas or hostages.
This is about Zionists stealing land.

It's about Iran , they are doing bidding of jake sullivan blinken and DC , all people are pawns

 

[Saint]

It isn't now and it never was. If someone was taught that the holocaust was the only specific instance of genocide than, that's a pretty poor education.

Genocide as a term is relatively new, the act of genocide isn't.

Genocide has been committed as long as humans could walk.

Every single country on planet earth has been conquered at one point in time in history. And all that conquering involved varying degrees of genocide every single time.

The point of the education was about how democracies can be subverted and people going along with genocide or the world sitting back and watching it happen. That we should not turn our backs.

Genocides have been going on a long time, and I referenced another one. We stand on the land of a less-recent one.

The Rwandan Genocide and holocaust have both been followed by violent retribution by those who were initially the victims, but have now become the perpetrators. Both Rwanda and Israel have been given far too much lee-way in committing war-crimes under the banner of self-defence.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

The point of the education was about how democracies can be subverted and people going along with genocide or the world sitting back and watching it happen. That we should not turn our backs.

Genocides have been going on a long time, and I referenced another one. We stand on the land of a less-recent one.

The Rwandan Genocide and holocaust have both been followed by violent retribution by those who were initially the victims, but have now become the perpetrators. Both Rwanda and Israel have been given far too much lee-way in committing war-crimes under the banner of self-defence.

I'm not sure anyone is turning their backs or at least i am not seeing it en masse. Plenty of people have been protesting and the government is putting clear pressure on Israel to provide a measured response. This isn't as clear cut as a lot of people are making it out. We and others are not just going to abandon Israel.

Genocide is a scheduled war crime and like any other war crime or any crime for that matter it needs to be proven to have occurred by the appropriate international body. Hopefully that investigation takes place one day and if found to have occurred those responsible are dealt with as the laws allow them to be.

 

[Saint]

I'm not sure anyone is turning their backs or at least i am not seeing it en masse. Plenty of people have been protesting and the government is putting clear pressure on Israel to provide a measured response. This isn't as clear cut as a lot of people are making it out. We and others are not just going to abandon Israel.

Genocide is a scheduled war crime and like any other war crime or any crime for that matter it needs to be proven to have occurred by the appropriate international body. Hopefully that investigation takes place one day and if found to have occurred those responsible are dealt with as the laws allow them to be.

The point is to not allow them to happen, or to stop them when they are, not to plan on taking the perpetrators to court later when all the evidence is received.

Australia is not putting pressure on at all, we're doing deals with their military during the plausible/possible/probable genocide.

Can you imagine the outcry if Australia had been doing deals with the Rwandan Government pre or post-genocide?

Would it be so hard to cut off all ties with Israel until they're cleared? After all, that's what we did with UNRWA, just based on Israel's word for it.

That's why there are protests in Australia, because we need to cut ties altogether. It's no abandoning Israel, they'll continue to commit their crimes without us.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I'm not sure anyone is turning their backs or at least i am not seeing it en masse. Plenty of people have been protesting and the government is putting clear pressure on Israel to provide a measured response. This isn't as clear cut as a lot of people are making it out. We and others are not just going to abandon Israel.

Genocide is a scheduled war crime and like any other war crime or any crime for that matter it needs to be proven to have occurred by the appropriate international body. Hopefully that investigation takes place one day and if found to have occurred those responsible are dealt with as the laws allow them to be.

If Israel is guilty of genocide, then Australia is guilty of complicity in genocide. It’s our obligation to stop it from happening.
Israel should be abandoned, sanctioned etc.

Perhaps you should do some homework, read the genocide convention etc.

 

[faible]

the government is putting clear pressure on Israel to provide a measured response.

We and others are not just going to abandon Israel.

Seems to be pretty meaningless 'pressure' if we're 'just not going to abandon Israel' doesn't it?

'Hey guys could you stop doing genocide?'
'Or what?'
'Nothing, we'll do nothing'.
'K'.

Genocide is a scheduled war crime and like any other war crime or any crime for that matter it needs to be proven to have occurred by the appropriate international body.

AFAIK no Genocide has been found to be a Genocide until after the fact.

So I guess according to you we should just sit by and watch Genocide's happen because to do anything without it being proven yet would be unfair. Poor Israel.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

If Israel is guilty of genocide, then Australia is guilty of complicity in genocide. It’s our obligation to stop it from happening.
Israel should be abandoned, sanctioned etc.

Perhaps you should do some homework, read the genocide convention etc.

Even so, I dont think you understand or even could understand the legal argument to prove complicity in genocide if it came down to it. its far more nuanced than, oh you helped Israel, so you are now complicit in a war crime.

Genocide in itself is entirely based on intent. You would need to somehow prove Australia intentionally acted to support a genocide.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

The point is to not allow them to happen, or to stop them when they are, not to plan on taking the perpetrators to court later when all the evidence is received.

Australia is not putting pressure on at all, we're doing deals with their military during the plausible/possible/probable genocide.

Can you imagine the outcry if Australia had been doing deals with the Rwandan Government pre or post-genocide?

Would it be so hard to cut off all ties with Israel until they're cleared? After all, that's what we did with UNRWA, just based on Israel's word for it.

That's why there are protests in Australia, because we need to cut ties altogether. It's no abandoning Israel, they'll continue to commit their crimes without us.

At least you added the word plausible in, because as it stands that is factual. We are clearly are applying pressure its just far more nuanced than just simply cutting ties. so, if your expectation is we completely cut ties than that just is not going to happen, so if that's the pass mark, i suppose you're going to continue to be disappointed.

one of the main reasons why Israels "retaliation" to Iran was limp dicked is because the US told them they would not support any counter offensive. So again, pressure is being applied, just not the way you want it to. Again, nuance.

 

[Saint]

At least you added the word plausible in, because as it stands that is factual. We are clearly are applying pressure its just far more nuanced than just simply cutting ties. so, if your expectation is we completely cut ties than that just is not going to happen, so if that's the pass mark, i suppose you're going to continue to be disappointed.

one of the main reasons why Israels "retaliation" to Iran was limp dicked is because the US told them they would not support any counter offensive. So again, pressure is being applied, just not the way you want it to. Again, nuance.

Germany surrendered in May, the trials started in November and didn't conclude until a year later. That was five years after the genocide started in earnest.

Is your proposition that we take no action until a guilty verdict is reached? Which won't happen because all the perpetrators are hiding in their country and can't be put on trial.

Let's at least put Israel on bail and not do deals with their military until they've done something to show they're following the ICC interim ruling.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Germany surrendered in May, the trials started in November and didn't conclude until a year later. That was five years after the genocide started in earnest.

Is your proposition that we take no action until a guilty verdict is reached? Which won't happen because all the perpetrators are hiding in their country and can't be put on trial.

Let's at least put Israel on bail and not do deals with their military until they've done something to show they're following the ICC interim ruling.

As it pertains to Gaza simply put my view is that Israel undertakes a full ceasefire immediately followed by the full surrender of Hamas and its leadership in Qatar, and their removal of power from Gaza. Israel can be investigated for everything you want to be. I have zero issues with that.

The only thing i am not sure of who the appropriate body is to take control of Gaza, whether that's PLO or not. From there progress to eventual statehood.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Even so, I dont think you understand or even could understand the legal argument to prove complicity in genocide if it came down to it. its far more nuanced than, oh you helped Israel, so you are now complicit in a war crime.

Genocide in itself is entirely based on intent. You would need to somehow prove Australia intentionally acted to support a genocide.

Ah, so because someone might not understand a legal argument, everyone should just ignore the whole complicity thing. Until it’s too late.

When and where did you complete your law degree?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Ah, so because someone might not understand a legal argument, everyone should just ignore the whole complicity thing. Until it’s too late.

When and where did you complete your law degree?

everyone isn't ignoring it nor have i suggested they should.

I am simply advising you that in the event Israel is found Guilty of Genocide doesn't automatically make other countries complicit - which is what you asserted. You dont need a law degree to understand basic law.

If your view is that us helping Israel makes Australia guilty of Genocide by a simple link, would it not be correct that us providing aid to Gaza, which Hamas controls as a Terrorist organisation also mean Australia is guilty of Terrorism?

 

[Not Important]

how rich is it that israels u.s puppet (bllinken} is overjoyed at the terrorist’s offer to park the genocide if a few israeli prisoners are released? let’s look the other way at the thousands of palestinians still held, many for years, without charge, some of whom are kids, who did no more than throw stones. or condemnation for israel’s wanton destruction and murdering of women and children many of whom were babies. you are a disgrace to humanity, blinken

this