Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

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Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Blue1980]

no. merely a point of fact.

genocides are not specific to only the holocaust.

Atilla the Hun for example undertook many genocides, some 1500 years before the term genocide was coined.

It is fact, doesn’t mean we should fund those doing them.

 

[Blue1980]

Your argument appears to be telling people that withdrawing aid or government support from Israel should be contingent on them being tried and found guilty of genocide. I can certainly see why you would dislike me making that comparison, because unlike most cases before the courts Israel's misdeeds here are extremely well documented and such an argument would be exceedingly absurd to make.

Which is why I asked you why you were doing it, so let me ask you again: why are you making an 'innocent until proven guilty' argument when this could be the most demonstrable genocide in history?

It is a ridiculous argument, which calls into question sanctions that have been placed against basically anyone the US doesn’t like who haven’t been found guilty of war crimes either (North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Russia, South Africa, Cuba etc)

It’s just disingenuous BS. One rule for Israel because they are a US client state, and one rule for everyone else.

 

[Blue1980]

not sure i can do much about your mind running with things, i guess.

I am simply not typing the things you are alleging so again this is moot.

i dont agree that the only action is to abandon Israel entirely. If you dont like that view, i dont care and its not what Australia nor anyone else is doing in reality. You are entitled to whatever view you want though.

basically, what you're saying is if I'm not bashing Israel, then i support what they are doing 100%. Laughably simplistic view.

When you say don’t abandon what do you mean? Just fund them a little?

I think they can have the iron dome and that’s it.

Give Palestine an iron dome too.

 

[Blue1980]

again, attempts to make this a black and white argument. It isn't.

You can support Israels fight against Hamas whilst at the same time decry the way they are doing it.

As much as you think we all need to hate Israel 100% or nothing, that's not how the world works.

Doesn’t matter how any of us emotionally feel about it but we can and should (these apply to US and allies including Australia):

A) stop all military funding to Israel (as in the US and allies). They can have iron dome for defensive purposes but nothing else.

B) have sanctions against Israel like we have had no hesitation in doing to Russia, unless they call an immediate and indefinite cease fire.

Option A should be relatively easy as a baseline. Option B is harder as no one in power wants to admit what Israel is doing is committing war crimes and objectionably wrong and heinous.

Neither of these is “abandoning” Israel.

 

[Blue1980]

Im not sure if I’ve missed the chat but have people been discussing the ICC potentially issue in arrest warrants for Netanyahu and others? The more i read in regards to anything about this conflict, the more absurd stuff sounds, in a media address yesterday Netanyahu specifically mentioned that due to the Holocaust that Israel couldn’t be guilty of genocide.

The response from the USA in relation to these developments is disgusting and absurd, making direct threats to the ICC and pressuring them to not go ahead with this.

This is a quote from an article from Axios.com (not sure of their credibility)

• U.S. and Israeli officials said Israel told the Biden administration that if arrests warrants are issued, it will consider the Palestinian Authority responsible and retaliate with strong action that could lead to its collapse.

This is a quote from an Aljazeera article today.

Anti-Semitism’​

Senior Israeli officials have demanded assurances from the ICC that Israel will not be targeted, suggesting any action might constitute “anti-Semitism”.

Foreign Minister Israel Katz pushed on Sunday for the ICC to waive any threat that it could target Israelis over the war, which has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians and pushed hundreds of thousands towards famine.

“We expect the court [ICC] to refrain from issuing arrest warrants against senior Israeli political and security officials,” Katz said.

They are a parody of themselves, they think they can just claim anti semitism and then do literally whatever they like.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Doesn’t matter how any of us emotionally feel about it but we can and should (these apply to US and allies including Australia):

A) stop all military funding to Israel (as in the US and allies). They can have iron dome for defensive purposes but nothing else.

B) have sanctions against Israel like we have had no hesitation in doing to Russia, unless they call an immediate and indefinite cease fire.

Option A should be relatively easy as a baseline. Option B is harder as no one in power wants to admit what Israel is doing is committing war crimes and objectionably wrong and heinous.

Neither of these is “abandoning” Israel.

I never said i was against those things. Australia to my knowledge only helps with intel. We dont supply Israel actual arms unless i am wrong. I have no issues with Australia continuing to do this.

I said i was against abandonment, not certain sanctions and the like.

 

[Saint]

Eminent Palestinian surgeon died in Israeli captivity after 4 months. Israel refusing to release the body and he's been dead for over 2 weeks.

Most moral army? They're not moral at all.

We should ban all IDF Reservists from entering Australia and we should end all partnerships with Israeli military contractors.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/gaza-doctor-dies-in-israeli-jail-prison-says-he-was-detained-for-national-security-reasons/

 

[QuietB]

Eminent Palestinian surgeon died in Israeli captivity after 4 months. Israel refusing to release the body and he's been dead for over 2 weeks.

Most moral army? They're not moral at all.

We should ban all IDF Reservists from entering Australia and we should end all partnerships with Israeli military contractors.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/gaza-doctor-dies-in-israeli-jail-prison-says-he-was-detained-for-national-security-reasons/

I think people would be horrified how many dual citizen Australians are actively serving in this "war".

And Australians would completely lose their minds if Palistinians were doing the same.

 

[Saint]

I think people would be horrified how many dual citizen Australians are actively serving in this "war".

And Australians would completely lose their minds if Palistinians were doing the same.

They were losing their minds that Palestinian refugees were being let in, but crickets about members of an army plausibly committing genocide.

Imagine if the Interahamwe were just wandering in and out on their dual citizenships.

If you're in a motorcycle gang, you can have your citizenship stripped, but genocide is ok sometimes?

 

[JayJ20]

In 8 months, Zionists have exposed themselves in every way and Americans realise what a big problem they have.

The so-called "democratic", "free speech-protecting" and "leaders of the free world" have discovered that all the values they claim to hold dear is contingent upon their support for a foreign nation. They got scammed like a grandmother giving money to a "Nigerian prince".

AIPAC dictates both parties in the US and they tell them what they can and cannot say or do without needing to register as a foreign body or justifying their sources of income. Their sole purpose is to lobby for a foreign government, even if it's at the expense of Americans. Their constitution is thrown away the minute AIPAC money enters the conversation.

And there they were demonising Muslims and claiming they were going to "take over America" for the past 23 years when the foreign entity they should have worried about was AIPAC.

 

[Boston tiger]

This seems very apt

Free Palestine and give it to who? The next mob that won’t give their people elections.

93 percent of the Middle East people still live in countries rated Not Free.

 

[faible]

Free Palestine and give it to who? The next mob that won’t give their people elections.

93 percent of the Middle East people still live in countries rated Not Free.

Not having elections now under military occupation and living through a plausible genocide.

Not having elections then but not under military occupation or genocide.

Tough choice.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

93 percent of the Middle East people still live in countries rated Not Free.

Does this number include the apartheid regime of Israel?

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Thoughts on Mohammad Sharab?

 

[Boston tiger]

Not having elections now under military occupation and living through a plausible genocide.

Not having elections then but not under military occupation or genocide.

Tough choice.

What kind of occupation was Hamas? Shut up or die ?

 

[Boston tiger]

Does this number include the apartheid regime of Israel?

I don’t think so.

 

[faible]

What kind of occupation was Hamas? Shut up or die ?

Hamas isn’t an occupation, it’s a response to one.

 

[Not Important]

this has always been the zionist intention. from the very day, israeli borders were set decades ago. the hamas atrocity gave them the excuse to complete the occupation and genocide.

 

[Not Important]

i really don’t know how the terrorists in uniform can sleep at night committing these murders. may she be ever remembered for her bravery and compassion.

 

[Not Important]

 

[Zidane98]

No surprise this coincides with Hamas travelling to Cairo for negotiations.

Have always wondered why this wasn't discussed when Qatar signed a defence deal with the US in January.

 

[Zidane98]

Sounds promising

 

[Ghost Patrol]

The Israeli warmongers admit that it's not about the hostages.

 

[Sqotty from office works]

Don't think Netanyahu can afford to have peace.

 

[Not Important]

force israel to pay reparation or boycott them until they do.

Returning to the case of Gaza, can the ideals of human rights embodied in law and embracing punitive action for egregious breaches offer support to the vulnerable, offer even justice? We shall soon find out.

Israel is an expert at these contrived scandals, designed to divert. It was right to be worried about the South African case. The bar to prove genocidal intent is high but oblivious of the international implications Israel appears determined to scale it.

Human Rights After Gaza | Conor Gearty