Khawaja v Marsh

[Tyberious Funk]

I feel sorry for the guy, but this run of form is horrendous. It's not like he's getting 20's or 30's and then getting out. He has 17 runs for the entire series. Whether it is mental or technical, there is something very, very wrong.

 

[Black Diamond]

Damien Martyn was dropped after the 2005 Ashes having gone through the series with an average of 19. This was despite having been our best batsman for the previous 16 months.

There is no way Marsh can hold his spot after this. No way.

 

[King Elvis]

Makes too many runs?

He's meant to be our best batsman, you'd hope he'd make runs.

I don't like his persona, but that could change.

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

What is Clarke's persona anyway?

 

[aussierulesrules]

Pity people just go on the raw stats, Khawaja faced some pretty dicey green tracks in his short 6 test career in south africa and against the kiwis and at least fought it out, marsh in current form might not have even survived an over on those same pitches.

The highlighted part being the key. He is in atrocious form, as anyone who has seen him bat in the past (especially early in his test career) would know. Usman, at the time you are referring to, was not. Comparing someone's results when they're batting OK/well, with someone else's results during a big form slump, is hardly comparing apples with apples. You have to compare how they went when they were in a similar boat, like comparing how Usman went in Sth Africa, with how Marsh went in Sth Africa, when they were both going well. (Unless you expect that Usman will never go through a form slump of his own, which would be pretty amazing, considering pretty much everyone who has had a good career for Australia has been through at least one big one at one time or another. I mean it was just a month ago that Mike Hussey (who hadn't played a single test when he was Shaun Marsh's age) looked like he would struggle to last an over in test cricket, making 8 tiny scores in a row, over two series.)
I would say both Marsh and Usman went equally well in Sth Africa, in similarly difficult conditions, with Marsh making our second highest score (44) in the first innings of the Cape Town test, when Watson, Hughes, Ponting, Hussey and Haddin made 26 between them (and faced only 85 balls between them). Marsh helped to hold the fort with Clarke, fighting for 100 balls (against Steyn, Morkel, Philander, Kallis), after we were 1 for 9 and then 3 for 40. (In the match where we then bowled Sth Africa out for 96, before being 9 for 21 in the next innings).
Then Usman did well in the next match, after Marsh went home injured.
That is more a reflection of their overall abilities, as they were both in form at the time and they both did well in difficult conditions (Usman because of the state of the match and Marsh because of the state of the pitch and match).
As for those who don't think Marsh can last as long at the crease as Usman, how about the fact that Marsh faced 623 balls in just 3 of his early test innings (when he wasn't in a form slump), while Usman has faced just 673 in his whole 11 innings career?
If Marsh was making blazing scores, at a run a ball, then you could argue something like that, but the facts are that in those early test innings, he lasted 623 balls for 265 runs and in his last two Shield seasons, when he averaged 59 for each, he had strike rates of 40 odd and about 50. So he has proved in the last three seasons that he is perfectly capable of grinding out scores, while also proving time and again that he can blast top quality attacks in T20 cricket, which shows that he has a similar ability as Mike Hussey, when it comes to being able to adapt to the conditions of a match.
This is why I personally hope he gets his shit together and earns his spot back in the team again in the next couple of years, as there aren't that many floating around that have the ability to bat that way in the different forms of cricket and who have different "gears" like that.
Right now, though, I don't think he should even play in the T20 games for Aust, as he is just that out of form it's not funny (as further evidenced by his poor effort in the Big Bash the other day, compared to his incredible 99 off 52 just a month or so ago in the same comp). He needs to get his form back in domestic cricket, as he obviously ought to have done instead of being picked in these tests, on the back of just one T20 game. This embarrassing stint may just be the making of him.
As for those that are just talking trash and saying Marsh is shit, they are probably the same ones who were saying the same sort of thing about Hilfenhaus, this time last year, saying he would/should never play again, or that were saying similar things about Siddle, in the past year, (or saying that Ponting or Hussey were finished, recently) and just haven't learned anything.

 

[Black Diamond]

That's just it though, ARR. His good form has been so temporary that it is the outlier, not his bad form. Shield cricket has had heaps of batsman plod along for many seasons and then set the comp alight for one or two years, only to sink back to the pack. This is Marsh.

Khawaja has been a top Shield cricketer since the beginning and has sustained it for several seasons. It's his type we need to be selecting.

 

[DIG]

He's meant to be our best batsman, you'd hope he'd make runs.

I don't like his persona, but that could change.

Clarke's persona?

You're not alone there, but personally I couldn't give a toss about any players' "persona" or personalities - as long as they deliver on the field, that's all that matters to me.

 

[Hellgood]

This article is a good one: http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2011/content/current/story/550690.html

It's just unbelievable how out of form he is at the moment. Bring Watson back in, see how Marsh goes in the T20's, ODI's and Shield cricket after this series to determine whether he should be considered to tour the Windies as a back up batsman. Sad to say, but he's Phil Hughes like at the moment.

I am a fan of him and I believe that form is temporary, class is permanent, but wow this series has been an absolute disaster for him.

 

[DIG]

Marsh has no doubt played himself out of form for the ODIs too, they could be just as excruciating.

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

That's just it though, ARR. His good form has been so temporary that it is the outlier, not his bad form. Shield cricket has had heaps of batsman plod along for many seasons and then set the comp alight for one or two years, only to sink back to the pack. This is Marsh.

Khawaja has been a top Shield cricketer since the beginning and has sustained it for several seasons. It's his type we need to be selecting.

Forget it, we can't critisise anyone because they might come good eventually. Everyone is a fool for bagging Hilfenhaus, Siddle, Johnson, Ponting, Hussey etc when they were terribly out of form.

Same goes for Marsh. We can't judge his bad form, only his good form.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

This article is a good one: http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2011/content/current/story/550690.html

It's just unbelievable how out of form he is at the moment. Bring Watson back in, see how Marsh goes in the T20's, ODI's and Shield cricket after this series to determine whether he should be considered to tour the Windies as a back up batsman. Sad to say, but he's Phil Hughes like at the moment.

I am a fan of him and I believe that form is temporary, class is permanent, but wow this series has been an absolute disaster for him.

When has he really been in form? And you insult Hughes by the comparison. Actually i find the comparison worth pursuing.

Marsh has an incredibly ho-hum first class average of 38, compared to Hughes' 48. Hughes has a whopping 10 more first class centuries than Marsh, yet is 5 years younger. Even in Hughes' worst run in Test cricket he did not sink to Marsh's current 17 runs from a series at an average of 3.5. His form is not Phillip Hughes, but Kim Hughes, circa 1984.


Yet they dropped Phillip Hughes after 4 Tests, with 2 centuries to his name and a Test and F/C average in the mid-high fifties. (Did wonders for lads confidence, too). They persist with Marsh despite the fact that he has shown little from his Test chances and that his first class form, when considered over his career (he is 28 now), is very ordinary.

Why? I'll wager the answer is lineage and technique. Hughes's father didn't play for Australia. Marsh's father did. Marsh has correct technique. Hughes doesn't. Interestingly, Marsh's correct technique has seen him become a substantially less successful first class cricketer than Hughes.

Still, Marsh will be given every opportunity. And he has clearly earned it, with those 7 centuries he has scored from 70 F/C outings.

 

[Plugger35]

Marsh wasn't selected because his old man played for Australia, he was selected because he has genuine talent and showed that in the tests he played overseas.

In some ways it's harder for a new batsmen playing a home series for the first time with all the scrutiny of the media here and the pressure of performing in front of a home crowd. North also played better overseas than he did in his first home series during the Ashes last year. It also didn't help that Marsh was coming back from a layoff from injury and had no first class cricket under his belt.

I wouldn't be surprised if Marsh gets dropped after this series given his lack of runs but he shouldn't be discarded altogether. If he returns after that it probably should be as a middle order batsman rather than in the top order though.

 

[Nankervis brothers]

Marsh wasn't selected because his old man played for Australia, he was selected because he has genuine talent and showed that in the tests he played overseas.

In some ways it's harder for a new batsmen playing a home series for the first time with all the scrutiny of the media here and the pressure of performing in front of a home crowd. North also played better overseas than he did in his first home series during the Ashes last year. It also didn't help that Marsh was coming back from a layoff from injury and had no first class cricket under his belt.

I wouldn't be surprised if Marsh gets dropped after this series given his lack of runs but he shouldn't be discarded altogether. If he returns after that it probably should be as a middle order batsman rather than in the top order though.

As stated earlier, Marsh has an ordinary first class average. He hasn't set the Shield alight over the the last 7 or 8 years, bar one good summer. He scored 1 century overseas, in SRL - but so did Hughes, and that didn't buy him much time.

Marsh has to go if the selectors have any consistency with what they expect form younger/newer capped players.

I am not so cynical as to say his father is the only reason he has a spot. But I am questioning how he can be considered a genuine talent when, after 70 first class matches, he has an average of 38 (33.11 in tests before today). On those numbers it is kinda odd that he got the gig in the first place.

 

[CHIEF SMACKAHOE]

I am not so cynical as to say his father is the only reason he has a spot.

well i am. any guy who averaged less than 40 at first class level and wasn't the son of a man with friends in high places would never even be considered for a test spot.

 

[Thommo 42]

Damien Martyn was dropped after the 2005 Ashes having gone through the series with an average of 19. This was despite having been our best batsman for the previous 16 months.

There is no way Marsh can hold his spot after this. No way.

At the time, that was an incredibly harsh decision especially given some of the shocking decisions he copped in that series.

However, yoiu need to apply some context. When Martyn was dropped in 05, we had Watson coming off a shield season where he scored 1000 runs at 50 and offering a bowling option, we also had Mike Hussey and Brad Hodge yet to make test debuts. We also had Dave Hussey and I think Love was still getting around.

So we were completely flush with outstanding alternatives ready for test selection.

Marsh is playing horribly, and of course should be dropped - but he obviouslt gets a bit longer because his obvious replacement (Watson) is injured and outside that, there aren't any options smashing down the door in the manner of Hussey/Hodge etc.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

Noose is getting tighter...

 

[Black Diamond]

I was watching it on 9 and right before he was dismissed they showed footage of him being hit. Brayshaw said his problem was that 'everything is moving' because he is never still, but to me it seriously looks like he isn't watching it properly at all.

 

[Infamy]

Noose is getting tighter...

Tighter? How tight does it need to get?
There is no chance Marsh should/will be given an opportunity to keep his spot after this tour.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Hit outside playing a shot. Watson back in to play at 3.

Persist with Cowen he's a fighter. Marsh is better suited to the short forms of the game.

 

[IanG]

Tighter? How tight does it need to get?
There is no chance Marsh should/will be given an opportunity to keep his spot after this tour.

Shouldn't even be in the WI squad.

 

[Hellgood]

Incorrect decision, but it was only a matter of time anyway. Dissappointing, but now it's up to him to completely rebuild his confidence.

Wouldn't put a line through his name as I think it's a form issue, but obviously is dropped for when Watson comes back in.

 

[BIG BONG THEORY]

such talent...

can't believe the sandgropers itt defending this spud

 

[Tyberious Funk]

Tighter? How tight does it need to get?
There is no chance Marsh should/will be given an opportunity to keep his spot after this tour.

Well, he's been picked for the T20 squad. If he scores some runs in those games, that might save him.

Personally, I've never been convinced about the guy even after he scored a century on debut. IMHO he is mentally fragile.

 

[DaRick]

Marsh has many problems at the moment. He seems to lack conviction and confidence, he doesn't look like he can keep himself still and his head position may be off-line, so he either misses straight balls or edge wider balls that he probably wouldn't have played in Sri Lanka.

His position is untenable and Watson should probably come back in unless somebody else really excels.

 

[GreekLunatic]

If watson doesnt get back stick Khawaja back in there