Draft Watcher Knightmare 2020 Draft Almanac

[Chaisa]

You're dreaming if you don't think you'd get significantly more. Sydney couldn't get a broken Daniher for two first rounders.

Key difference is that Brown and Cameron are off-contract, Daniher wasn't.

Jez if he left (which probably isn't happening if media reports are to be believed) is a Free Agent though, so would just be Band 1 compo.

EDIT: Brown would definitely get more than a second no matter how s**t he's playing though. The standard of good tall forwards is quite low, plenty of clubs (Collingwood, Essendon, maybe Geelong) would love Brown.

 

[LittleG]

You're dreaming if you don't think you'd get significantly more. Sydney couldn't get a broken Daniher for two first rounders.

That would be the worst list management decision this decade if not ever.

Daniher will play no games and probably won’t be paid enough to get more than a second round pick* in a compromised draft.
VS
Two first round picks in a normal draft.


Knightmare not sure it fits into the thread but can you think of a worse list management decision? Turning two first round picks into a possible second round pick*.


*Daniher will probably get a one year deal with a prove it type clause for more. No one is going to offer him a long term big money contract IF he can’t actually get on the park. Availability is a key ability.

 

[GWS Goose]

You're dreaming if you don't think you'd get significantly more. Sydney couldn't get a broken Daniher for two first rounders.

Sydney were reportedly only offering 1(and it was a pick they didn't even have yet), that was the issue, also Daniher had a year to run, where Cameron is out of contract (he'd be a free agent, but the hypothetical comparison to Brown).
Maybe we'd get more, as I said I hope to never find out)

 

[Mego Red]

Have I given you guys more credit than you deserve. My point was, as good as Grundy is and the worth he has at the trade table currently. I like what I see from English. As much as you can hope that English can elevate to Grundy’s level. He is no where near there yet. Nor can you say that he will ever get there.....But what you can say right now is that Grundy is definitely worth 2 first rounders......Without a doubt.

Greenac, I know it’s tough for a 5th grader who is being home schooled at the moment to understand context. You need to pay more attention to what was written and why. But that’s ok you’ll learn that when you get to high school.

It’s the Millennial Virtue Signaling Woke Generation that runs away and deletes their accounts. Us Boomers are made of tougher stuff than that. We stand and fight......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You Boomers have been gifted everything in life except the ability to stay current.

Go back to putting Minion memes and conspiracy theories on Facebook, and leave the footy discussion to folks who can still see the game.

 

[perplexed]

TBH, thats what we would probably get for Jezza.

Prob a late first and a pick swap in our favour or something. Hopefully I never have to find out what his trade value is and he jsut plays another 7 seasons with us.

Also, I think Cameron is a significantly better player than Brown. But Im a Giants fan, so I may be be bias.

Cameron is definitely the better player and worth much more than that.
We won't find out the actual market value of either player though, there is no way either is leaving their club.

 

[flipper83]

Don't think the shorter quarters are helping Ben Brown. Think he covered the most ground in the AFL last year and would probably start to cash in later in quarters and games as it opens up a bit.
Don't think North would trade him for less than a late first but also not sure many teams would want to give up more that that so might end up staying put.

 

[Mutineer]

Don't think the shorter quarters are helping Ben Brown. Think he covered the most ground in the AFL last year and would probably start to cash in later in quarters and games as it opens up a bit.
Don't think North would trade him for less than a late first but also not sure many teams would want to give up more that that so might end up staying put.

LOL

Most of it walking back for his 120m run up for a set shot!

 

[TryAnHit]

The hype has already started in Adelaide for Tarek Newchurch.

Do you have any thoughts on him and what range we can expect a bid?

 

[SXT15]

The other option is you trade with a Carlton type, who potentially have an excess of what you are talking about.

Carlton currently playing three genuine talls - McKay, Casboult and McGovern, with Curnow a certainty to return to that mix.

Do you chase a McKay or Curnow?

I rate Charlie as a much more natural forward over Mckay

 

[Mego Red]

The hype has already started in Adelaide for Tarek Newchurch.

Do you have any thoughts on him and what range we can expect a bid?

I'm not sure why anyone would bid before 30.

 

[briztoon]

I'm not sure why anyone would bid before 30.

If they rate him and want a small forward...

 

[Dockeroo]

Is Logan McDonald in your top 5 yet KM?! Taking the WAFL by storm in the last few weeks. Starting to think he will be off the board by the time Fremantles first pick comes around.

 

[Jukesy85]

Is Logan McDonald in your top 5 yet KM?! Taking the WAFL by storm in the last few weeks. Starting to think he will be off the board by the time Fremantles first pick comes around.

I’ve been watching the Perth-EP game too, he’s been fantastic today by any standards, let alone for an 18 year old KPF. Like all young KPFs will need to add some bulk but he definitely has huge AFL potential. Extremely impressive player.

 

[Knightmare]

This makes absolutely no sense from a North perspective though.

Of course a second rounder is great value for the buyer. You're getting a 60+ goal a year kpf with arguably 4-5 years left in the tank. The question is why the hell North would trade him for obvious unders. They know how good he can be, what you're suggesting is trading him at him absolute lowest value, which is insane.

He's having a career worst season because he has had no second kpf with larkey out, plus the shortened quarters have nullified his elite endurance, which normally runs defenders ragged. Get him back into normal games with a decent no. 2 and there's no doubt he returns to form.

Go back one year and Brown is attracting top 5 pick offers, if not more. Ludicrous to think a top-5 kpf at 26 is not attracting huge offers. Also ludicrous to think his value has dropped to 2nd round territory.

To be honest though, I don't think there is any way North trade him, nor do I think they're actively shopping him. He's the face of the club, plus would undoubtedly be considered essential in mentoring our young kpf's moving forward. The chat around this has come from Barrett who has notably been blacklisted by the club, so I'd take his word with a grain of salt.

My suggestion isn't that North Melbourne trade Brown. Rather, it feels like North are floating the possibility of a trade after Brown's and the club's unexpectedly slow start to the season. The impression I get is Brown is unhappy and it sounds a bit like Adelaide who irresponsibility cleared their list of veteran talent, that North may be looking at doing a lite version of that with the view for Shaw to be the 'rebuilding coach' who has the list cleared out for him with the hope of putting together a young core for the future to go forward with.

Or at least that's my impression from the outside. A situation to track and one to see how it plays out.

The hype has already started in Adelaide for Tarek Newchurch.

Do you have any thoughts on him and what range we can expect a bid?

Newchurch I currently have in the second round mix. A third round bid to match may be all that's required. We'll have to see what kind of season he has to see if his stocks rise or not, stay about the same or drop. Nice talent though with a lot of tricks, so the scope is there is a strong season for him to rise up draft boards.

That would be the worst list management decision this decade if not ever.

Daniher will play no games and probably won’t be paid enough to get more than a second round pick* in a compromised draft.
VS
Two first round picks in a normal draft.


Knightmare not sure it fits into the thread but can you think of a worse list management decision? Turning two first round picks into a possible second round pick*.


*Daniher will probably get a one year deal with a prove it type clause for more. No one is going to offer him a long term big money contract IF he can’t actually get on the park. Availability is a key ability.

Availability is the best ability.

Daniher is a talent, but with his durability lacking, good as he is when he's on the field, he's not attracting a lot.

Is Logan McDonald in your top 5 yet KM?! Taking the WAFL by storm in the last few weeks. Starting to think he will be off the board by the time Fremantles first pick comes around.

McDonald is the guy improving his stocks.

If I'm to modify my power rankings today, he'd be up to 6. If he continues there is no reason he can't go higher.

He's ticking the rate of improvement and production boxes. If he keeps that going and shows it's not a fluke, he could go as high as #2 on my board.

I'd like to see full match footage ideally to see how exactly he's doing it. He could well be a candidate with Adelaide's pick if this continues.

 

[Jazny]

How well do draftees who play in the SANFL play? Do the top 10s dominate SANFL or do they get in the bests often? And like players projected to be late picks, how well do they play at SANFL level? (or WAFL).

 

[briztoon]

How well do draftees who play in the SANFL play? Do the top 10s dominate SANFL or do they get in the bests often? And like players projected to be late picks, how well do they play at SANFL level? (or WAFL).

Can you try asking your questions again. I’ve read it three times, and I think I know what you’re asking, but it’s not very clear.

 

[Jazny]

Can you try asking your questions again. I’ve read it three times, and I think I know what you’re asking, but it’s not very clear.

Maybe one too many of these

How well do the draft prospects from SA play when the play at SANFL or WAFL level? Are they usually in the best players for their team? I imagine the really elite high draft prospects probably play well and are consistently in the best players on the ground at that level, but what about the guys that are projected to go from round 3 onwards?

Like im noticing the Tassie players that get drafted high, even top 10 picks like Thomas, Kolodjashnij, and Jones arent really blowing the TSL apart in their draft years. I am just wondering how prospects from other leagues go in theirs.

 

[Dockeroo]

Maybe one too many of these

How well do the draft prospects from SA play when the play at SANFL or WAFL level? Are they usually in the best players for their team? I imagine the really elite high draft prospects probably play well and are consistently in the best players on the ground at that level, but what about the guys that are projected to go from round 3 onwards?

Like im noticing the Tassie players that get drafted high, even top 10 picks like Thomas, Kolodjashnij, and Jones arent really blowing the TSL apart in their draft years. I am just wondering how prospects from other leagues go in theirs.

That seems to depend on the physical development of the players no? Gould apparently stood out at SANFL level last year but we haven’t seen him yet at AFL. The likes of Elijah Taylor I dont think played much WAFL if any, at all last year but has played 2 AFL games.

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

English I find really frustrating to watch and my feelings are mixed on him.

He's the softest in the competition at ruck contest and is just plain uncompetitive in there and I can't put it any more politely. Whether it's going for the hitout or following up immediately from a ruck contest. There just isn't any power or competitiveness there. And when up against one of the better ruckmen it's really one way traffic and puts the Dogs midfield at a decided disadvantage.

What he does around the ground on the other hand is first class and is really as good as any at his position. Great endurance, covers a stack of the ground. He takes grabs overhead and reads it really well (much improved in those facets since juniors - he'll get behind the ball and take intercept marks and forward of centre he takes his grabs also which are the strengths I most enjoy seeing him exploit). He's someone where if there weren't any stoppages and we're playing something more like AFLX, he might be the best ruckman in the competition, but make it a stoppage fest and play it in tight and there isn't anyone I'd want less competing in there.

I was thinking about English as a key defender early in the year and I think he'd be well suited back there and have the scope to become one of the best, but I'm almost thinking ultra tall wing just to take advantage of the way he reads it and marks when he gets both behind and forward of the ball. He could be Richo/Riewoldt on the wing + an extra 10cm. He'd be a problem for opposing teams.

I rate English as I'm sure people will gather about my optimism around his scope to play other positions where he hasn't had the chance to feature, but until he becomes more competitive through the ruck, I'd much rather see him continue to tap into his strengths and not have to endure as much of what he plainly doesn't bring to the table. Not that the Dogs really have anyone else to ruck instead, but if the Dogs had a Rowan Marshall or Reilly O'Brien I'd much rather have them rucking to free English up to be his best self - whether that's on a wing or as a key defender.



I'd predict Gresham has the better career.

Gresham has been the Saints most consistent for the last few years. Marshall for mine went past him to become the Saints' best last year, but other than Jack Steven when he was playing good footy and Riewoldt was there, Gresham has been that best player.

Give Gresham minutes forward of centre and he'll kick 30-40 goals in a season and do damage with ball in hand. Put him through the midfield and again he's doing damage with ball in hand but finding more of it and providing meaningful drive forward. Along with Papley, Gresham is one of those underrated smalls people probably until the last 12 months haven't spoken enough about or recognised the capabilities of if not watching him every week.

I would like to see comparisons to Gawn and Grundy with hitouts in their 4th year. you have those?

 

[Knightmare]

How well do draftees who play in the SANFL play? Do the top 10s dominate SANFL or do they get in the bests often? And like players projected to be late picks, how well do they play at SANFL level? (or WAFL).

Those who play SANFL/WAFL League football it is advantageous if they're dominating. Generally those non-talls hold their own and are good components at the level.

What's we're all talking about at the moment is how well particularly given he's a KPP is how Logan McDonald is going. Kicking 3 and 4 goals back to back at WAFL League level is exceptional, even for a projected now to some top-5 choice.

Typically those top SANFL/WAFL guys who are considered top-10 selections. And it depends on their positions or rolls. But if they're getting 15-20d per game that's generally considered good output for a mid/flanker. They tend not to be the leading players but more so strong components who contribute strongly already at that level.

I would like to see comparisons to Gawn and Grundy with hitouts in their 4th year. you have those?

I'm not sure why you'd be comparing English's 4th season to Grundy's or Gawn's. English was drafted as an overager. English's 4th season as such is from strictly an age perspective comparable instead to their 5th seasons.

And season 5 was of course when Max Gawn went BANG and a year after Grundy broke out into a dominant ruckman, though improving with each season after that also.

I'm not sure why you're looking at effectiveness as ruckmen purely from a hitout perspective. But it's a category English gets crushed in most in a direct comparison.

English 134 hitouts x1.2 (to consider reduced minutes in games this season) = 160.8 hitouts. divided by 8 games = 20.1 per game.
Grundy 747 hitouts divide 20 games = 35.7 per game. (was already a better ruckman than English in season 4 also averaging 26.1 per game)
Gawn 485 hitouts divide 13 games = 37.3 per game. (prior to Gawn's fifth season he played second fiddle behind Jamar so his hitout numbers were of no consequence prior to his fifth season)

I can't say I have access to hitout to advantage numbers but they're relevant in combination with pure hitout numbers to indicate effectiveness and I'd welcome anyone with those numbers to add them and apply the x1.2 formula to English's numbers.


The numbers I find more interesting personally when comparing the grouping is contested possessions, clearances and tackles personally when combined with the hitout numbers.
English (x1.2 to adjust for minutes of game to as per the above example make the comparison a fair one)
CP: 9.5
CL: 3.2
T: 1.7
Grundy
Season 4:
CP: 9.8
CL: 3.9
T: 4.4
Season 5:
CP: 9.9
CL: 4.1
T: 3.9
Gawn
CP: 7.4
CL: 2.8
T: 2.2



What I find with English to take those numbers apart is uncompetitiveness at stoppages. At centre bounces he'll leap, but he's slow to follow up and is tentative/timid when he's going either for the ball or needing to tackle. At boundary throw-ins he is regularly caught behind and if he isn't, he's out-bodied generally.

While my view is unconventional and to my knowledge one of a kind. But I see no reason why English shouldn't be played on a wing and I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered his natural position. I'll continue to complement English with his work around the ground and particularly his contested marking and how well he reads it. And same goes with his endurance. We've never had anyone to my knowledge in AFL/VFL history we have had someone at his height with that combination of contested marking and endurance on that level. Perhaps Dean Cox is most similar and next best in that regard though even he is a couple of cm shorter and I'd say English has the scope to be an even greater contested marking threat. English could be the best wing in the competition and is the next evolution to Richo/N.Riewoldt on a wing as far as I'm concerned. And that should really be viewed as the highest complement to English being the first of his own type at precisely his height. I'm not sure with those capabilities why anyone would even be bothered with him rucking frankly. It's a completely missed opportunity. Or at least it feels that way from my point of view until he has the chance to prove me right/wrong.

 

[andleanback]

Those who play SANFL/WAFL League football it is advantageous if they're dominating. Generally those non-talls hold their own and are good components at the level.

What's we're all talking about at the moment is how well particularly given he's a KPP is how Logan McDonald is going. Kicking 3 and 4 goals back to back at WAFL League level is exceptional, even for a projected now to some top-5 choice.

Typically those top SANFL/WAFL guys who are considered top-10 selections. And it depends on their positions or rolls. But if they're getting 15-20d per game that's generally considered good output for a mid/flanker. They tend not to be the leading players but more so strong components who contribute strongly already at that level.



I'm not sure why you'd be comparing English's 4th season to Grundy's or Gawn's. English was drafted as an overager. English's 4th season as such is from strictly an age perspective comparable instead to their 5th seasons.

And season 5 was of course when Max Gawn went BANG and a year after Grundy broke out into a dominant ruckman, though improving with each season after that also.

I'm not sure why you're looking at effectiveness as ruckmen purely from a hitout perspective. But it's a category English gets crushed in most in a direct comparison.

English 134 hitouts x1.2 (to consider reduced minutes in games this season) = 160.8 hitouts. divided by 8 games = 20.1 per game.
Grundy 747 hitouts divide 20 games = 35.7 per game. (was already a better ruckman than English in season 4 also averaging 26.1 per game)
Gawn 485 hitouts divide 13 games = 37.3 per game. (prior to Gawn's fifth season he played second fiddle behind Jamar so his hitout numbers were of no consequence prior to his fifth season)

I can't say I have access to hitout to advantage numbers but they're relevant in combination with pure hitout numbers to indicate effectiveness and I'd welcome anyone with those numbers to add them and apply the x1.2 formula to English's numbers.


The numbers I find more interesting personally when comparing the grouping is contested possessions, clearances and tackles personally when combined with the hitout numbers.
English (x1.2 to adjust for minutes of game to as per the above example make the comparison a fair one)
CP: 9.5
CL: 3.2
T: 1.7
Grundy
Season 4:
CP: 9.8
CL: 3.9
T: 4.4
Season 5:
CP: 9.9
CL: 4.1
T: 3.9
Gawn
CP: 7.4
CL: 2.8
T: 2.2



What I find with English to take those numbers apart is uncompetitiveness at stoppages. At centre bounces he'll leap, but he's slow to follow up and is tentative/timid when he's going either for the ball or needing to tackle. At boundary throw-ins he is regularly caught behind and if he isn't, he's out-bodied generally.

While my view is unconventional and to my knowledge one of a kind. But I see no reason why English shouldn't be played on a wing and I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered his natural position. I'll continue to complement English with his work around the ground and particularly his contested marking and how well he reads it. And same goes with his endurance. We've never had anyone to my knowledge in AFL/VFL history we have had someone at his height with that combination of contested marking and endurance on that level. Perhaps Dean Cox is most similar and next best in that regard though even he is a couple of cm shorter and I'd say English has the scope to be an even greater contested marking threat. English could be the best wing in the competition and is the next evolution to Richo/N.Riewoldt on a wing as far as I'm concerned. And that should really be viewed as the highest complement to English being the first of his own type at precisely his height. I'm not sure with those capabilities why anyone would even be bothered with him rucking frankly. It's a completely missed opportunity. Or at least it feels that way from my point of view until he has the chance to prove me right/wrong.

It was actually year 6 when gawn started becoming a player in the back half of the season. Year 7 was his first all aus in ‘16. He was drafted in 09.

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

Those who play SANFL/WAFL League football it is advantageous if they're dominating. Generally those non-talls hold their own and are good components at the level.

What's we're all talking about at the moment is how well particularly given he's a KPP is how Logan McDonald is going. Kicking 3 and 4 goals back to back at WAFL League level is exceptional, even for a projected now to some top-5 choice.

Typically those top SANFL/WAFL guys who are considered top-10 selections. And it depends on their positions or rolls. But if they're getting 15-20d per game that's generally considered good output for a mid/flanker. They tend not to be the leading players but more so strong components who contribute strongly already at that level.



I'm not sure why you'd be comparing English's 4th season to Grundy's or Gawn's. English was drafted as an overager. English's 4th season as such is from strictly an age perspective comparable instead to their 5th seasons.

And season 5 was of course when Max Gawn went BANG and a year after Grundy broke out into a dominant ruckman, though improving with each season after that also.

I'm not sure why you're looking at effectiveness as ruckmen purely from a hitout perspective. But it's a category English gets crushed in most in a direct comparison.

English 134 hitouts x1.2 (to consider reduced minutes in games this season) = 160.8 hitouts. divided by 8 games = 20.1 per game.
Grundy 747 hitouts divide 20 games = 35.7 per game. (was already a better ruckman than English in season 4 also averaging 26.1 per game)
Gawn 485 hitouts divide 13 games = 37.3 per game. (prior to Gawn's fifth season he played second fiddle behind Jamar so his hitout numbers were of no consequence prior to his fifth season)

I can't say I have access to hitout to advantage numbers but they're relevant in combination with pure hitout numbers to indicate effectiveness and I'd welcome anyone with those numbers to add them and apply the x1.2 formula to English's numbers.


The numbers I find more interesting personally when comparing the grouping is contested possessions, clearances and tackles personally when combined with the hitout numbers.
English (x1.2 to adjust for minutes of game to as per the above example make the comparison a fair one)
CP: 9.5
CL: 3.2
T: 1.7
Grundy
Season 4:
CP: 9.8
CL: 3.9
T: 4.4
Season 5:
CP: 9.9
CL: 4.1
T: 3.9
Gawn
CP: 7.4
CL: 2.8
T: 2.2



What I find with English to take those numbers apart is uncompetitiveness at stoppages. At centre bounces he'll leap, but he's slow to follow up and is tentative/timid when he's going either for the ball or needing to tackle. At boundary throw-ins he is regularly caught behind and if he isn't, he's out-bodied generally.

While my view is unconventional and to my knowledge one of a kind. But I see no reason why English shouldn't be played on a wing and I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered his natural position. I'll continue to complement English with his work around the ground and particularly his contested marking and how well he reads it. And same goes with his endurance. We've never had anyone to my knowledge in AFL/VFL history we have had someone at his height with that combination of contested marking and endurance on that level. Perhaps Dean Cox is most similar and next best in that regard though even he is a couple of cm shorter and I'd say English has the scope to be an even greater contested marking threat. English could be the best wing in the competition and is the next evolution to Richo/N.Riewoldt on a wing as far as I'm concerned. And that should really be viewed as the highest complement to English being the first of his own type at precisely his height. I'm not sure with those capabilities why anyone would even be bothered with him rucking frankly. It's a completely missed opportunity. Or at least it feels that way from my point of view until he has the chance to prove me right/wrong.

Wow and i thought you were more insightful than that, you say why only focus on hitouts, when in fact you said and say he gets crushed so i asked that question, and obviously i'm saying fourth year because it's the fourth year he has been in a system, not what age he is.

 

[flipper83]

Those who play SANFL/WAFL League football it is advantageous if they're dominating. Generally those non-talls hold their own and are good components at the level.

What's we're all talking about at the moment is how well particularly given he's a KPP is how Logan McDonald is going. Kicking 3 and 4 goals back to back at WAFL League level is exceptional, even for a projected now to some top-5 choice.

Typically those top SANFL/WAFL guys who are considered top-10 selections. And it depends on their positions or rolls. But if they're getting 15-20d per game that's generally considered good output for a mid/flanker. They tend not to be the leading players but more so strong components who contribute strongly already at that level.



I'm not sure why you'd be comparing English's 4th season to Grundy's or Gawn's. English was drafted as an overager. English's 4th season as such is from strictly an age perspective comparable instead to their 5th seasons.

And season 5 was of course when Max Gawn went BANG and a year after Grundy broke out into a dominant ruckman, though improving with each season after that also.

I'm not sure why you're looking at effectiveness as ruckmen purely from a hitout perspective. But it's a category English gets crushed in most in a direct comparison.

English 134 hitouts x1.2 (to consider reduced minutes in games this season) = 160.8 hitouts. divided by 8 games = 20.1 per game.
Grundy 747 hitouts divide 20 games = 35.7 per game. (was already a better ruckman than English in season 4 also averaging 26.1 per game)
Gawn 485 hitouts divide 13 games = 37.3 per game. (prior to Gawn's fifth season he played second fiddle behind Jamar so his hitout numbers were of no consequence prior to his fifth season)

I can't say I have access to hitout to advantage numbers but they're relevant in combination with pure hitout numbers to indicate effectiveness and I'd welcome anyone with those numbers to add them and apply the x1.2 formula to English's numbers.


The numbers I find more interesting personally when comparing the grouping is contested possessions, clearances and tackles personally when combined with the hitout numbers.
English (x1.2 to adjust for minutes of game to as per the above example make the comparison a fair one)
CP: 9.5
CL: 3.2
T: 1.7
Grundy
Season 4:
CP: 9.8
CL: 3.9
T: 4.4
Season 5:
CP: 9.9
CL: 4.1
T: 3.9
Gawn
CP: 7.4
CL: 2.8
T: 2.2



What I find with English to take those numbers apart is uncompetitiveness at stoppages. At centre bounces he'll leap, but he's slow to follow up and is tentative/timid when he's going either for the ball or needing to tackle. At boundary throw-ins he is regularly caught behind and if he isn't, he's out-bodied generally.

While my view is unconventional and to my knowledge one of a kind. But I see no reason why English shouldn't be played on a wing and I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered his natural position. I'll continue to complement English with his work around the ground and particularly his contested marking and how well he reads it. And same goes with his endurance. We've never had anyone to my knowledge in AFL/VFL history we have had someone at his height with that combination of contested marking and endurance on that level. Perhaps Dean Cox is most similar and next best in that regard though even he is a couple of cm shorter and I'd say English has the scope to be an even greater contested marking threat. English could be the best wing in the competition and is the next evolution to Richo/N.Riewoldt on a wing as far as I'm concerned. And that should really be viewed as the highest complement to English being the first of his own type at precisely his height. I'm not sure with those capabilities why anyone would even be bothered with him rucking frankly. It's a completely missed opportunity. Or at least it feels that way from my point of view until he has the chance to prove me right/wrong.

I respect your opinion but you seem to be fixated on the idea that a ruckman can't be effective without winning a high number of contested possessions, clearances or tackles. Obviously these are all areas that English will be trying to improve in and most likely will but not being strong in these areas doesn't make him a bad ruckman.

English is a different type of player and instead of being the first 200cm + wing, as you advocate, could be the the first dominant ruckman who isn't crash and bash at stoppages.

You've highlighted the stats that are clearly weaknesses but this year English is also:
1st among ruckmen in marks
2nd among ruckmen in disposals (2 behind Grundy)
3rd among ruckmen in contested marks
3rd among ruckman in one percenters

English faced a very strong tap ruckman in Witts on the weekend in conditions that favored a strong crash and bash ruckman and weren't suited to Englishes outside game but despite losing the hitouts badly, again the hitouts to advantage were 6 to 5 in favor of the gold coast. So while rucking isn't a strength for English, one of the best tap ruckman in the competitions wasn't able to make it a clear advantage.

So as a ruckman in his 4th year of development I'm very comfortable with him losing hitouts but drawing even with hitouts to advantage and perhaps not getting as many contested possessions or aimless clearances around the stoppages as his opponent but taking advantage of his running power and skills on the outside.

There will obviously be games where he has his colours lowered, it will be interesting to see him against Gawn, but I think writing him off as a gun ruckman of the future is perhaps looking at things with a bit of tunnel vision.

 

[LittleG]

Those who play SANFL/WAFL League football it is advantageous if they're dominating. Generally those non-talls hold their own and are good components at the level.

What's we're all talking about at the moment is how well particularly given he's a KPP is how Logan McDonald is going. Kicking 3 and 4 goals back to back at WAFL League level is exceptional, even for a projected now to some top-5 choice.

Typically those top SANFL/WAFL guys who are considered top-10 selections. And it depends on their positions or rolls. But if they're getting 15-20d per game that's generally considered good output for a mid/flanker. They tend not to be the leading players but more so strong components who contribute strongly already at that level.



I'm not sure why you'd be comparing English's 4th season to Grundy's or Gawn's. English was drafted as an overager. English's 4th season as such is from strictly an age perspective comparable instead to their 5th seasons.

And season 5 was of course when Max Gawn went BANG and a year after Grundy broke out into a dominant ruckman, though improving with each season after that also.

I'm not sure why you're looking at effectiveness as ruckmen purely from a hitout perspective. But it's a category English gets crushed in most in a direct comparison.

English 134 hitouts x1.2 (to consider reduced minutes in games this season) = 160.8 hitouts. divided by 8 games = 20.1 per game.
Grundy 747 hitouts divide 20 games = 35.7 per game. (was already a better ruckman than English in season 4 also averaging 26.1 per game)
Gawn 485 hitouts divide 13 games = 37.3 per game. (prior to Gawn's fifth season he played second fiddle behind Jamar so his hitout numbers were of no consequence prior to his fifth season)

I can't say I have access to hitout to advantage numbers but they're relevant in combination with pure hitout numbers to indicate effectiveness and I'd welcome anyone with those numbers to add them and apply the x1.2 formula to English's numbers.


The numbers I find more interesting personally when comparing the grouping is contested possessions, clearances and tackles personally when combined with the hitout numbers.
English (x1.2 to adjust for minutes of game to as per the above example make the comparison a fair one)
CP: 9.5
CL: 3.2
T: 1.7
Grundy
Season 4:
CP: 9.8
CL: 3.9
T: 4.4
Season 5:
CP: 9.9
CL: 4.1
T: 3.9
Gawn
CP: 7.4
CL: 2.8
T: 2.2



What I find with English to take those numbers apart is uncompetitiveness at stoppages. At centre bounces he'll leap, but he's slow to follow up and is tentative/timid when he's going either for the ball or needing to tackle. At boundary throw-ins he is regularly caught behind and if he isn't, he's out-bodied generally.

While my view is unconventional and to my knowledge one of a kind. But I see no reason why English shouldn't be played on a wing and I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered his natural position. I'll continue to complement English with his work around the ground and particularly his contested marking and how well he reads it. And same goes with his endurance. We've never had anyone to my knowledge in AFL/VFL history we have had someone at his height with that combination of contested marking and endurance on that level. Perhaps Dean Cox is most similar and next best in that regard though even he is a couple of cm shorter and I'd say English has the scope to be an even greater contested marking threat. English could be the best wing in the competition and is the next evolution to Richo/N.Riewoldt on a wing as far as I'm concerned. And that should really be viewed as the highest complement to English being the first of his own type at precisely his height. I'm not sure with those capabilities why anyone would even be bothered with him rucking frankly. It's a completely missed opportunity. Or at least it feels that way from my point of view until he has the chance to prove me right/wrong.

English is the ultimate wingman:

Thread is from 2017, about playing English on a wing. There are a few who do like it but we are getting use to him in the ruck:

Analysis - English on a wing 2022

Why haven't we tried this?

r.tapatalk.com

Everyone has differing opinions. I prefer English as a HHF, with a more defensive and much faster winger in front of him... but understand why others want wing or ruck.


I would ask about some of the local boys but they aren’t playing this year.... some Vic kids have really bulked up, like seriously put on the muscle. Going to be some interesting measurements at the combine (if there is one).

 

[Knightmare]

It was actually year 6 when gawn started becoming a player in the back half of the season. Year 7 was his first all aus in ‘16. He was drafted in 09.

I made no slip up. 2010 was season 1 for Gawn, having been drafted in 2009. The numbers I reference were 2015 for Gawn when he first received the ruck mantle. He was terrific then already, but only played the 13 games, earning his spot during the second half of the season. Gawn's 2015 numbers were excellent with 2016 largely a full season of the same thing with only incremental improvements.

Wow and i thought you were more insightful than that, you say why only focus on hitouts, when in fact you said and say he gets crushed so i asked that question, and obviously i'm saying fourth year because it's the fourth year he has been in a system, not what age he is.

Suggesting English gets crushed for hitouts isn't news and I don't view it in isolation as a fair metric to judge him on solely.

You don't have a thing to complain about regarding thorough answering of the question when I reference both the fourth and fifth seasons of Grundy and Gawn to both satisfy your own question in its entirety and provide greater insight and analysis for those who desire it both regarding hitouts and the relevant metrics that indicate competitiveness.

I can't speak for others, but I find myself comparing guys of the same age to one another rather than the year they join the AFL system. And I look back directly not at how many years in the system but rather use age as my preferred method for comparison. It's like if looking for a Tim Kelly or Tom Stewart comparison. You don't compare them to guys in their drafts, they're entirely different ages. It's instead looking at guys at the same age or when guys were at that age to determine how effective or otherwise they are.

I respect your opinion but you seem to be fixated on the idea that a ruckman can't be effective without winning a high number of contested possessions, clearances or tackles. Obviously these are all areas that English will be trying to improve in and most likely will but not being strong in these areas doesn't make him a bad ruckman.

English is a different type of player and instead of being the first 200cm + wing, as you advocate, could be the the first dominant ruckman who isn't crash and bash at stoppages.

You've highlighted the stats that are clearly weaknesses but this year English is also:
1st among ruckmen in marks
2nd among ruckmen in disposals (2 behind Grundy)
3rd among ruckmen in contested marks
3rd among ruckman in one percenters

English faced a very strong tap ruckman in Witts on the weekend in conditions that favored a strong crash and bash ruckman and weren't suited to Englishes outside game but despite losing the hitouts badly, again the hitouts to advantage were 6 to 5 in favor of the gold coast. So while rucking isn't a strength for English, one of the best tap ruckman in the competitions wasn't able to make it a clear advantage.

So as a ruckman in his 4th year of development I'm very comfortable with him losing hitouts but drawing even with hitouts to advantage and perhaps not getting as many contested possessions or aimless clearances around the stoppages as his opponent but taking advantage of his running power and skills on the outside.

There will obviously be games where he has his colours lowered, it will be interesting to see him against Gawn, but I think writing him off as a gun ruckman of the future is perhaps looking at things with a bit of tunnel vision.

I don't view ruckmen as effective in their role if they don't show competence in hitouts/hitouts to advantage/contested possessions/clearances/centre clearances/tackles/pressure acts. The better the combination of those, the better the ruckman. There are too many contests in a given game they're involved in for them not to be at least reasonable in those areas of the game by position. Contested marks, intercept marks, marks i50 and goals kicked add substantial value to quality of play/output, but it's not without those other aspects on its own enough to make someone a good ruckman.

English as a ruckman in my view is a modern Josh Fraser. Great around the ground and still a respectable enough ruckman, but gets exploited by the stronger ruckman at stoppages. Josh Fraser just like English I feel would have had an even better career had he been more of a wing/hff who can play relieving ruck minutes but it isn't his main gig.

I'm not the coach or list manager, and I'm aware the Dogs don't have the personnel to replace English through the ruck, but I'd be making it my number one priority for the Dogs in the offseason as a method of creating a unique competitive advantage on matchday.

English is the ultimate wingman:

Thread is from 2017, about playing English on a wing. There are a few who do like it but we are getting use to him in the ruck:

Analysis - English on a wing 2022

Why haven't we tried this?

r.tapatalk.com

Everyone has differing opinions. I prefer English as a HHF, with a more defensive and much faster winger in front of him... but understand why others want wing or ruck.

I would ask about some of the local boys but they aren’t playing this year.... some Vic kids have really bulked up, like seriously put on the muscle. Going to be some interesting measurements at the combine (if there is one).

The perception with wings that they need to be fast I don't consider to be a pre-requisite. I look at it as a misnomer if anything. I view it most as a bonus. It's more a position that is about endurance, accumulation and skills. And if contested marking, intercept marking and scoreboard impact are further weapons they're major bonuses. English probably would be only a moderate accumulator at his position and skills reasonable without being incredible, but he ticks those other boxes and the contested marking, intercept marking and scoreboard impact categories he could be elite by position.

HFF I would consider equally good for English with the usage as per your thinking. Wing/HFF with relieving ruck minutes is how I see him maximised. Whether he's pushing forward or back, he reads it so well and has really developed his contested marking to an excellent level with his clean hands overhead and much improved capacity to mark v contact. And in either role he could do all that and no one would be able to stop him or limit his impact.

Not that English is the only guy in the competition I consider being played out of position/being used in a suboptimal position, but he seems the relevant one of the day and the one I'd probably consider to be among if not the greatest missed opportunity. Or at least in my mind when I go through the totality of his game and what he brings to the table.