Kohli: best odi player ever?

[PhatBoy]

Just saw a video of a back foot on drive for 6 last night. Phenomenal. Was like he'd set up for a pull shot but kept his bat straight.

 

[Toe Poke]

Many would argue that Viv Richards' bowling and fielding leaves him ahead of both of them.

Richards' record is extremely good compared to other players of his era. But (based on batting ability only) his record is not as good as that of AB De Villiers.

This poses an interesting question, which has been discussed indirectly in this thread and others lately - how do you quantify the difference between strike rates and economy rates in 2017 compared to those in 2007 or 1997 or 1987?

As just one more example, Bevan's career (1994 to 2004) strike rate was much slower than most current day Aussie ODI batsmen. How much should be added to a strike rate of player with a career from the mid 1990s to the mid 2000s in order to compare it to a strike rate of a current day player?

How much more do you add to the career to someone like Viv Richards or Dean Jones who played most of their ODI cricket in the 1980s to early 1990s?

 

[PhatBoy]

Richards' record is extremely good compared to other players of his era. But (based on batting ability only) his record is not as good as that of AB De Villiers.

This poses an interesting question, which has been discussed indirectly in this thread and others lately - how do you quantify the difference between strike rates and economy rates in 2017 compared to those in 2007 or 1997 or 1987?

As just one more example, Bevan's career (1994 to 2004) strike rate was much slower than most current day Aussie ODI batsmen. How much should be added to a strike rate of player with a career from the mid 1990s to the mid 2000s in order to compare it to a strike rate of a current day player?

How much more do you add to the career to someone like Viv Richards or Dean Jones who played most of their ODI cricket in the 1980s to early 1990s?

That's what makes Viv unique - his strike rate from 76-91 is as good as most of the great players from the current era. So irrespective of eras he would probably come into the argument anyway.

 

[Toe Poke]

That's what makes Viv unique - his strike rate from 76-91 is as good as most of the great players from the current era. So irrespective of eras he would probably come into the argument anyway.

Based on strike rate alone, I disagree: there are plenty of batsmen with strike rates above 90.20.

If we include averages, then I agree with you.

Richards' strength (apart from the bowling and fielding) is his average of 47.00. Of the players who have a strike rate better than Viv, only Shane Watson, Virat Kohli, Babar Azam, Quinton De Kock, David Warner, Soumya Sarkar and de Villiers have averages above 40.

And of those, only Kohli, Babar Azam and de Villiers have averages higher than Richards.

 

[PhatBoy]

Based on strike rate alone, I disagree: there are plenty of batsmen with strike rates above 90.20.

If we include averages, then I agree with you.

Richards' strength (apart from the bowling and fielding) is his average of 47.00. Of the players who have a strike rate better than Viv, only Shane Watson, Virat Kohli, Babar Azam, Quinton De Kock, David Warner, Soumya Sarkar and de Villiers have averages above 40.

And of those, only Kohli, Babar Azam and de Villiers have averages higher than Richards.

That's my point.

Of course there'll be players with higher strike rates but few if any who have a decent overall record to match

 

[SpaceClef]

Based on strike rate alone, I disagree: there are plenty of batsmen with strike rates above 90.20.

If we include averages, then I agree with you.

Richards' strength (apart from the bowling and fielding) is his average of 47.00. Of the players who have a strike rate better than Viv, only Shane Watson, Virat Kohli, Babar Azam, Quinton De Kock, David Warner, Soumya Sarkar and de Villiers have averages above 40.

And of those, only Kohli, Babar Azam and de Villiers have averages higher than Richards.

And only Kohli and AB have played more than a handful of matches.

So it seems as though we can safely say that Viv, Virat and de Villiers are the vvvery best

 

[FredLeDeux]

Based on strike rate alone, I disagree: there are plenty of batsmen with strike rates above 90.20.

If we include averages, then I agree with you.

Richards' strength (apart from the bowling and fielding) is his average of 47.00. Of the players who have a strike rate better than Viv, only Shane Watson, Virat Kohli, Babar Azam, Quinton De Kock, David Warner, Soumya Sarkar and de Villiers have averages above 40.

And of those, only Kohli, Babar Azam and de Villiers have averages higher than Richards.

That's my point.

Of course there'll be players with higher strike rates but few if any who have a decent overall record to match

MAN OF THE MATCH
31 Richards
25 De Villiers
22 Kohli (23?)

This suggests that Richards' strike rate was (cf. the strike rates of his contemporaries) a match-killer.

 

[Toe Poke]

MAN OF THE MATCH
31 Richards
25 De Villiers
22 Kohli (23?)

This suggests that Richards' strike rate was (cf. the strike rates of his contemporaries) a match-killer.

I'm in agreement with you and other posters that Richards, De Villiers and Kohli are three of the best ODI batsmen to have played the game. But I don't think MOTM awards are a good guide, because they are generally awarded:

(1) to players from the winning team even if a player from the losing team did well
(2) to batsmen rather than bowlers
(3) to batsmen who make big scores regardless of strike rate, rather than those who score fewer runs but do this with a faster strike rate.

Case in point is Geoff Marsh. 13 MOTM awards in 117 matches. But a career strike rate of less than 56 and average under 40. Even in the late 1980s, a score of (50 * 6 / 100 * 56 = 168) 168 would be insufficient to win most matches.

For comparison, Marsh's teammate Dean Jones received 16 awards in 164 matches - less than 1 in 10, compared to Marsh's 1 in 9.

 

[Power Raid]

Many would argue that Viv Richards' bowling and fielding leaves him ahead of both of them.

who needs big bats when you have genuine strength and timing!and honestly the most entertaining to watch.

I dare say you could take 10 runs off averages and 20 off strike rates for the benefit of modern bats.

 

[Wallaby]

There's a million arguments for and against. Same with Viv, AB, Javed (absolute great), Tendulkar, maybe Bevan, don't forget Gilly (because he was a top Keepr as well).

It comes down to opinion. Yours is good as anyone's (except mine, of course, because mine is RIGHT).

I say Kohli.

 

[Kram]

Cannot think of a single argument as to why he isn't.

This knock he's playing at the moment is freakish.

Have you never heard of Dean Jones?

Kids these days!

 

[Costanza_]

Kohli: best odi player ever?

"That's a funny way of spelling DAVEY THE POCKET ROCKET WARNER".

Maybe not yet but if he's in the discussion at 27yo you'd assume by the time he retires he will be. I shudder to think what he's going to do to us in February...

 

[PhatBoy]

Have you never heard of Dean Jones?

Kids these days!

I can only assume this is sarcasm on several fronts

 

[Kram]

Bevan. I disregard the last 10 years of ODI's due to the concrete pitches (especially in India and Australia) inflating scores. Bevan did it in the harder era.

Bevan as good as he was loved nothing more than getting that red ink. I'll never forget one game where there was an extra run to be had on the final ball of the the Australian innings but he sent the bowler he was batting back halfway down the pitch back just because it was a bit 'risky' (but in no way suicidal) Was worried about potentially getting out and his precious 50+ average over a likely extra run for the team..

Michael Hussey>>>Bevan

 

[Power Raid]

Have you never heard of Dean Jones?

Kids these days!

over-rated

 

[STFU Donnie]

I can only assume this is sarcasm on several fronts

And several fonts.

 

[STFU Donnie]

Bevan as good as he was loved nothing more than getting that red ink. I'll never forget one game where there was an extra run to be had on the final ball of the the Australian innings but he sent the bowler he was batting back halfway down the pitch back just because it was a bit 'risky' (but in no way suicidal) Was worried about potentially getting out and his precious 50+ average over a likely extra run for the team..

Michael Hussey>>>Bevan

Didn't Warne get angry with him in the middle one game because he felt he was playing a low risk innings?

 

[Zach Package]

De villiers is his closest modern rival.

Starc has the potential to be in the argument.

Smaller sample size but the gap between Starc and every other bowler in the world is significantly greater than the gap between Kohli and every other batsman in the world.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Smaller sample size but the gap between Starc and every other bowler in the world is significantly greater than the gap between Kohli and every other batsman in the world.

Only the 4th best ODI bowler according to the ICC Rankings.

 

[Zach Package]

Only the 4th best ODI bowler according to the ICC Rankings.

which is why these rankings are trash

 

[Carbine Chaos]

which is why these rankings are trash

Tahir definitely deserves to be right up there with Starc at the very least. Elite ODI bowler.

The others being Boult and Narine are excellent too.

 

[psychobrown]

Didn't Warne get angry with him in the middle one game because he felt he was playing a low risk innings?

I also quite vividly remember a game against South Africa where Ricky Ponting was really smouldering during a partnership because Bevo wasn't really rotating the strike, and mouthed something to the extent of 'four trucks quake, you tanker' towards Bevo after he was dismissed.

 

[PhatBoy]

Smaller sample size but the gap between Starc and every other bowler in the world is significantly greater than the gap between Kohli and every other batsman in the world.

To be fair that owes as much to a dearth of gun bowlers as it does to Starc's admittedly high quality.his most likely rival imo would be Narine who averages 26, econ of 4.02 and strike rate of 38 but he hardly plays anymore.

 

[DT_fanatic]

I can see why you would take team rankings with a grain of salt but there's not much wrong with individual player rankings. For the most part it's an accurate reflection of who the better players are, the only issue being if they haven't played in a while.

 

[damochandler]

Tendulkar than viv