List Changes Announced ** KEEP IT HERE PLEASE **

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

I believe Stokes, Milne, Sierakowski and Peterson will have to be re-rookied if the club wishes to persist with them.

 

[The_Axeman]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't understand why Muston would be delisted. Is he that bad? I actually thought he was pretty good this season and should only get better from here. Is it just the fact that he will never be the player we recruited him to be?

 

[GoBuddy]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Gone from Senior List:

Campbell Brown (GC)
Rhan Hooper (Delisted)
Trent Croad (Retired)
Travis Tuck (Inactive rookie list)

Likely to be gone from senior list:

Simon Taylor
Beau Dowler
Beau Muston

The Senior List

1. Max Bailey
2. Jarryd Roughead
3. Jordan Lewis
4. Rick Ladson
5. Sam Mitchell (VC)
6. Josh Gibson
7. Michael Osborne
8. Xavier Ellis
9. Shaun Burgoyne
10. Chance Bateman (Vets List)
11. Clinton Young
12. Brad Sewell
13. Simon Taylor
14. Grant Birchall
15. Luke Hodge (C)
16. Beau Dowler
17. Beau Muston
18. Brent Guerra
19. Jarryd Morton
20. Rhan Hooper
21. Shane Savage
22. Travis Tuck
23. Lance Franklin
24. Trent Croad
25. Ryan Schoenmakers
26. Liam Shiels
27. Stephen Gilham
29. Thomas Murphy
30. Campbell Brown
31. Matt Suckling
33. Cyril Rioli
34. Brent Renouf
35. Sam Grimley
36. Jordan Lisle
37. Brendan Whitecross
38. Luke Lowden
39. Ben Stratton
40. Jordan Williams
41. Taylor Duryea
00. David Hale
00. Kyle Cheney

Would leave 5 live picks in the draft. 19, 37, 54, 66 & 88. The last of which will likely be a rookie upgrade for Breust.

Current Rookie List

28. Garry Moss (Rookie)
32. Riley Milne (Rookie)
42. Wayde Skipper (Rookie)
43. Will Sierakowski (Rookie)
44. Cameron Stokes (Rookie)
45. Jarrod Kayler-Thomson (Rookie)
46. Michael Johnston (Rookie)
47. Luke Breust (Rookie)
48. Carl Peterson (Rookie)

With Stubbs, Kickett, Langford and Mahoney all on the scholarship list, they will all be knocking on the door for a rookie list spot.

With Breust upgraded, JKT and Moss gone should give room for 3 of those players to be rookie listed.

What makes you think that we will use all 5 National Draft Picks this year? We might just use only 3 or 4 picks. Pick 88 will not be used.

 

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't understand why Muston would be delisted. Is he that bad? I actually thought he was pretty good this season and should only get better from here. Is it just the fact that he will never be the player we recruited him to be?

I think its a case of what role can he play in the team? Beau is a tall, strong midfielder that isn't as quick and evasive as he was prior to his knee injuries. His field kicking and decision making are less than desirable. The main issue for Beau is he has been in the system for 5 years and has not had an impact. We have guys like Shane Savage who will play senior football next year who is known for long accurate kicking and pace to burn.

If Beau is retained it will simply be for depth. Unfortunatley he just isn't the player we were hoping for.

 

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

What makes you think that we will use all 5 National Draft Picks this year? We might just use only 3 or 4 picks. Pick 88 will not be used.

Speculation my friend, just as the Thread title suggests...

 

[HawksILove]

Re: List Changes Speculation

How do we pick up our Scholarship Kids, is it from the National draft coming up?

 

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Pretty sure you take them with your last picks in the rookie draft. For example Michael Johnson was taken at pick #42 in the rookie draft. Reasonably certain other clubs cannot pick them.

 

[Knights 24]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Completely agree with this post, with maybe Ladson to join Morton and Muston in playing for their careers next season.

I can't quite understand why people are queuing up to delist Simon Taylor?

The guy broke his leg last year and with Campbell retired and Bailey in permanent rehab, he was in our best 22.

I think Clarkson likes the fact that Taylor is aggressive and follows orders.

Just because we've got Hale doesn't mean you throw this guy on the scrap heap.

 

[HawksILove]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Pretty sure you take them with your last picks in the rookie draft. For example Michael Johnson was taken at pick #42 in the rookie draft. Reasonably certain other clubs cannot pick them.

When is the Rookie Draft?
I be happy if we draft Mahoney and Stubbs

 

[onthemoney]

Re: List Changes Speculation

I can't quite understand why people are queuing up to delist Simon Taylor?

The guy broke his leg last year and with Campbell retired and Bailey in permanent rehab, he was in our best 22.

I think Clarkson likes the fact that Taylor is aggressive and follows orders.

Just because we've got Hale doesn't mean you throw this guy on the scrap heap.

I’d love to see Taylor stay, but unfortunately you can thank Andrew Demetriou and his brigade for the demise of Simon's career.

In late 08, the change in the way they got boundary umps to throw in the ball meant that you had to have a more mobile ruckman making it hard for Taylor. And now with the decidated sub, he’s about stuffed I reckon. It’s a shame because he’s been a valuable player for us and seemed like a really genuine guy when I spoke to him at a hawks function this season.

 

[Roddy27]

Re: List Changes Speculation

How do we pick up our Scholarship Kids, is it from the National draft coming up?

You can pre-select the scholarship players in either the national draft or the rookie draft depending on whether you want them on the senior list or rookie list. The lodgment for the pre-selection comes at a date prior to those drafts. No other club can touch them if we pre-select them.

I should say though, if you off to rookie them- i believe they can turn this down. Where if you pre-select them on the senior list they dont have this choice.

Mahoney, Langford and Stubbs for mine.

 

[hawks0808]

Re: List Changes Speculation

I think its a case of what role can he play in the team? Beau is a tall, strong midfielder that isn't as quick and evasive as he was prior to his knee injuries. His field kicking and decision making are less than desirable. The main issue for Beau is he has been in the system for 5 years and has not had an impact. We have guys like Shane Savage who will play senior football next year who is known for long accurate kicking and pace to burn.

If Beau is retained it will simply be for depth. Unfortunatley he just isn't the player we were hoping for.

2 Knee recos will do that, he has come thru this year unscathed, confidence is growing, just needs to settle into 1 position, has been pretty good when he has played a good preseason and I rekon he will have a break out year 2011

 

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

2 Knee recos will do that, he has come thru this year unscathed, confidence is growing, just needs to settle into 1 position, has been pretty good when he has played a good preseason and I rekon he will have a break out year 2011

Thats true and i really hope he does. The bigger issue for me is i don't want him keeping players like Whitecross, Shiels, Savage etc out of the side.

 

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

I can't quite understand why people are queuing up to delist Simon Taylor?

The guy broke his leg last year and with Campbell retired and Bailey in permanent rehab, he was in our best 22.

I think Clarkson likes the fact that Taylor is aggressive and follows orders.

Just because we've got Hale doesn't mean you throw this guy on the scrap heap.

According to Champion Data this is how many Ruckman each teams have. I have included the trades, retirements and delistings. Obviously each team has tall utilities than can pinch hit in the ruck, so the teams with low numbers probably have other options.

Adelaide; 4 ruckman
Brisbane; 5 ruckman
Carlton; 3 ruckman
Collingwood; 4 ruckman
Essendon; 5 ruckman
Fremantle; 3 ruckman
Geelong; 5 ruckman
Hawthorn; 7 ruckman
Melbourne; 6 ruckman
Nth Melbourne; 2 ruckman
Port Adelaide; 3 ruckman
Richmond; 4 ruckman
St Kilda; 4 ruckman
Sydney; 6 ruckman
West Coast; 3 ruckman
Western Bulldogs; 5 ruckman

We have;

David Hale

Will be our number 1 ruck according to Hawthorn officials.

Brent Renouf

A young servicable ruckman which much to learn. Keeps getting better.

Max Bailey

The club has shown faith in this young man for a reason. Will be an elite ruckman if he can get his body right. You would expect him to play most games next year if he gets through the preseason.

Wayde Skipper

Was taken as a back up ruckman. Exposed for size but made up for it with excellent use of the footy. Should remain a back up ruckman.

Simon Taylor

Probably our best tap ruckman before Hill came into our side. Servicable but unlikely to remain on our list.

Luke Lowden

Approaching the 100kg mark and at about 206cm this kid will be pushing for selection by years end.

Sam Grimely

Still very young and ity remains to be seen weather he will become a ruckman or KPD.

It's an interesting situation. We clearly have way to many ruckman. It's either Skipper or Taylor on the chopping block - it could even be both.

 

[Knights 24]

Re: List Changes Speculation

According to Champion Data this is how many Ruckman each teams have. I have included the trades, retirements and delistings. Obviously each team has tall utilities than can pinch hit in the ruck, so the teams with low numbers probably have other options.

Adelaide; 4 ruckman
Brisbane; 5 ruckman
Carlton; 3 ruckman
Collingwood; 4 ruckman
Essendon; 5 ruckman
Fremantle; 3 ruckman
Geelong; 5 ruckman
Hawthorn; 7 ruckman
Melbourne; 6 ruckman
Nth Melbourne; 2 ruckman
Port Adelaide; 3 ruckman
Richmond; 4 ruckman
St Kilda; 4 ruckman
Sydney; 6 ruckman
West Coast; 3 ruckman
Western Bulldogs; 5 ruckman

We have;

David Hale

Will be our number 1 ruck according to Hawthorn officials.

Brent Renouf

A young servicable ruckman which much to learn. Keeps getting better.

Max Bailey

The club has shown faith in this young man for a reason. Will be an elite ruckman if he can get his body right. You would expect him to play most games next year if he gets through the preseason.

Wayde Skipper

Was taken as a back up ruckman. Exposed for size but made up for it with excellent use of the footy. Should remain a back up ruckman.

Simon Taylor

Probably our best tap ruckman before Hill came into our side. Servicable but unlikely to remain on our list.

Luke Lowden

Approaching the 100kg mark and at about 206cm this kid will be pushing for selection by years end.

Sam Grimely

Still very young and ity remains to be seen weather he will become a ruckman or KPD.

It's an interesting situation. We clearly have way to many ruckman. It's either Skipper or Taylor on the chopping block - it could even be both.

7 genuine ruckman?

Bailey has to be a 50:50 shot at best.

Skipper is a forced solution and Lowden and Grimely are untried.

So i would count Renouf, Hale and Taylor as three genuine ruck options.

Quite the dilemma!!!

 

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

7 genuine ruckman?

Bailey has to be a 50:50 shot at best.

Skipper is a forced solution and Lowden and Grimely are untried.

So i would count Renouf, Hale and Taylor as three genuine ruck options.

Quite the dilemma!!!

It's about list space, not if certain players are match capable. If you were to break down the above list to capable ruckman who are not ready you would find most sides would have 2-3 capable ruckman from 4-5 listed rucks.

Renouf, Hale, Taylor, Skipper, Bailey are all capable. From what i'm hearing about Lowden - he's closer than you think. Even if Bailey doesn't make it through the pre-season its still way to many rucks on the list.

 

[Ordovician]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Renouf, Hale, Taylor, Skipper, Bailey are all capable. From what i'm hearing about Lowden - he's closer than you think. Even if Bailey doesn't make it through the pre-season its still way to many rucks on the list.

Bailey is a very long shot. The way he did his knee last year was shocking. Nobody should do an ACL smiply by landing on your feet without another player taking you off balance. If he does not have the balance or the strength in his knees to be able to land properly from an innocuous jump then he is in deep trouble. Really, how many knee recos does he need before he calls it quits?

As for Lowden he is a fair way off because he does know how to ruck. This is hardly surprising as he was:

i. drafted bottom aged so he never had a full season TAC cup footy to learn how to ruck against his peers

ii. was injured, how friggin' surprising again, having to play in that stupid practice game at Berri (yes, where the fruit jiuce comes from) where he did his shoulder and lost prety much all of season 2009.

iii. was injured again, I can't remmeber what this time around, and missed the start of this year and came back through the Box Hill seconds mid-year, was very good at that level and was promoted to the seniors for the last couple of months.

At VFL level he is good around the ground has some pace and agility for a bloke 204 cms but he never won many hitouts at all. Until he can at least break even with VFL level rucks there is little point in playing him as a ruck at AFL level.

He may debut next year but I'd doubt that he'd have any impact and letting him lose against vicious pricks like Jolly who will drive their knee into his body at every occasion, is just downright stupid until the kid does his apprenticeship at VFL level and learns how to protect himself in ruck contests. Langford anyone?

Learning of the finer points of ruck work takes quite a few years and to risk injuring such a fine prospect for a mobile ruckman is senseless. I doubt he'll play that much AFL in the next two years unless we have another ruckman "beach party massacre" like we had between late August 09 and April 10 where we lost Bailey (naturally), Campbell, Walsh (who was quite good), Taylor, Renouf (due to stupidity) and Skipper (who is hardly a ruck but went down just the same).

Perhaps he'll get a few games to give him a taste and show him what standard he needs to achieve but there is no way that he'll take one of the regular ruck slots ahead of Hale, Renouf, Taylor (if still on the list) or Bailey (if he is still standing) or Skipper in 2011 or 2012.

 

[eldorado]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Hawkinspired,

Did you include rookie lists in other clubs' ruck tallies?

 

[Roughies Boys]

Re: List Changes Speculation

It reflects pretty badly on where our list is at they everyone can find at 5 players on top of croad and brown and still be left with players that we would like to cut.

INS - Trade: Hale, Cheney
INS - Upgrade: Breust, Milne
Out - Trade/retire: Croad, Brown
Out - Delist: Taylor, Suckling, Hooper, Tuck, Ladson, one of Morton/Muston/Dowler
Rookie list: Keep skipper, Sierrakowski and peterson (if he wants to stay), prob get rid of rest

-Would like Dowler to be given another year but I'm pretty sure he won't be on our list - has bucketloads of talent but we (or he) can't seem to make the most of it
-I like muston over morton but the coaching staff seem to rate morton highly - just don't see the appeal - not quick, average field kick, no x-factor, plays outside. Morton is trying to be a 3rd defensive tall now - we have plenty of these and think milne is a more talented prospect anyway - if we upgrade milne surely morton is gone.
-I just don't see ladson adding much next year and will take the place of a youngster (but think he will stay)
-Does anyone think williams or duryea will be under pressure? Yes were only late picks but spent most of year in reserves while most young mids/runners can usually crack a game at afl level in their first year
-I still dont understand the Cheney pick - just dont see where he fits, especially with mahaoney meant to be a hardnosed small backman.

Midfielder

 

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Hawkinspired,

Did you include rookie lists in other clubs' ruck tallies?

Sure did, every listed player. The only thing i didn't cover was tall utilities, of which there were not many. Like Leigh Brown types for example who are only 194cm.

 

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Bailey is a very long shot. The way he did his knee last year was shocking. Nobody should do an ACL smiply by landing on your feet without another player taking you off balance. If he does not have the balance or the strength in his knees to be able to land properly from an innocuous jump then he is in deep trouble. Really, how many knee recos does he need before he calls it quits?

As for Lowden he is a fair way off because he does know how to ruck. This is hardly surprising as he was:

i. drafted bottom aged so he never had a full season TAC cup footy to learn how to ruck against his peers

ii. was injured, how friggin' surprising again, having to play in that stupid practice game at Berri (yes, where the fruit jiuce comes from) where he did his shoulder and lost prety much all of season 2009.

iii. was injured again, I can't remmeber what this time around, and missed the start of this year and came back through the Box Hill seconds mid-year, was very good at that level and was promoted to the seniors for the last couple of months.

At VFL level he is good around the ground has some pace and agility for a bloke 204 cms but he never won many hitouts at all. Until he can at least break even with VFL level rucks there is little point in playing him as a ruck at AFL level.

He may debut next year but I'd doubt that he'd have any impact and letting him lose against vicious pricks like Jolly who will drive their knee into his body at every occasion, is just downright stupid until the kid does his apprenticeship at VFL level and learns how to protect himself in ruck contests. Langford anyone?

Learning of the finer points of ruck work takes quite a few years and to risk injuring such a fine prospect for a mobile ruckman is senseless. I doubt he'll play that much AFL in the next two years unless we have another ruckman "beach party massacre" like we had between late August 09 and April 10 where we lost Bailey (naturally), Campbell, Walsh (who was quite good), Taylor, Renouf (due to stupidity) and Skipper (who is hardly a ruck but went down just the same).

Perhaps he'll get a few games to give him a taste and show him what standard he needs to achieve but there is no way that he'll take one of the regular ruck slots ahead of Hale, Renouf, Taylor (if still on the list) or Bailey (if he is still standing) or Skipper in 2011 or 2012.

Good points and maybe if heart wasn't at play, Bailey would be the one on the chopping block ahead of Taylor and Skipper. Fact is when we drafted Hale, someone had to go. 7 rucks is way too much, especially when we lack depth and speed.

 

[Roughies Boys]

Re: List Changes Speculation

What I Think:
Trade Week:
Hale, Cheney

Delists/Retires:
Brown (GC)
Croad(Retire)
Tuck
Hooper
Dowler(Delist)
Taylor(Delist)
Morton(Delist)
Suckling(Delist)
Stokes(Delist)
Moss(Delist)
Milne(Delist)
Sierakowski(Delist)


Elevations:
Skipper

Scholarship Holders:
Thomas Kickett
Trent Stubbs
William Langford
Jack Mahoney

Draft:
Matthew Watson
Jared Polec
Myles Sewell
Edward Curnow

Pre-Season Draft:
Matthew Sphanger

1. Max Bailey
2. Jarryd Roughead
3. Jordan Lewis
4. Rick Ladson
5. Sam Mitchell (VC)
6. Josh Gibson
7. Michael Osborne
8. Xavier Ellis
9. Shaun Burgoyne
10. Chance Bateman (V)
11. Clinton Young
12. Brad Sewell
13. David Hale
14. Grant Birchall
15. Luke Hodge (C)
16. Brent Renouf
17. Beau Muston
18. Brent Guerra
19. Thomas Murphy
20. Wayde Skipper
21. Shane Savage
22. Travis Tuck*
23. Lance Franklin
24. Will Langford*
25. Ryan Schoenmakers
26. Liam Shiels
27. Stephen Gilham
28. Matthew Watson**
29. Matthew Sphanger***
30. Ben Stratton
31. Kyle Cheney
32. Jack Mahoney*
33. Cyril Rioli
34. Edward Curnow**
35. Sam Grimley
36. Jordan Lisle
37. Brendan Whitecross
38. Luke Lowden
39. Trent Stubbs*
40. Jordan Williams
41. Taylor Duryea
42. Myles Sewell**
43. Jared Polec**
44. Thomas Kickett*
45. Jarrod Kayler-Thomson*
46. Michael Johnston*
47. Luke Breust
48. Carl Peterson

*Rookie
** New Players Senior Listed
*** New Senior Listed Players From Pre-Season Draft

What Do You Think?

 

[dermott]

Re: List Changes Speculation

Sure did, every listed player. The only thing i didn't cover was tall utilities, of which there were not many. Like Leigh Brown types for example who are only 194cm.

In that case you should not include Wayde Skipper who is a tall utility like Leigh Brown rather than a genuine ruckman. On that basis we have 6 ruckmen, two of whom are developing (Grimley and Lowden), one is a high risk gamble recovering from 3 knee recos, one is likely to be delisted.
We will most likely start the season with 3 ruckmen who are ready to play round one (assuming Bailey gets up) plus a tall utility on the rookie list.

 

[Hawkinspired]

Re: List Changes Speculation

In that case you should not include Wayde Skipper who is a tall utility like Leigh Brown rather than a genuine ruckman. On that basis we have 6 ruckmen, two of whom are developing (Grimley and Lowden), one is a high risk gamble recovering from 3 knee recos, one is likely to be delisted.
We will most likely start the season with 3 ruckmen who are ready to play round one (assuming Bailey gets up) plus a tall utility on the rookie list.

As i mentioned it was based on who is actually a ruckman according to champion data. Wayde Skipper, though he is 194cm - Is a ruckman and only a ruckman. Despite being mobile so to speak, he is not capable of player KP or any other position for that matter.

 

[Roughies Boys]

Re: List Changes Speculation

As i mentioned it was based on who is actually a ruckman according to champion data. Wayde Skipper, though he is 194cm - Is a ruckman and only a ruckman. Despite being mobile so to speak, he is not capable of player KP or any other position for that matter.

Well he did play forward a little.