yaco55
Hall of Famer
You are spot on about Brown - Performed his job admirably in his four games - performed at a much higher level than Hartley.
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Recruiting List Development 2017 - How do we develop our list?
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You are spot on about Brown - Performed his job admirably in his four games - performed at a much higher level than Hartley.
Killer_Mike
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He's definitely been more than serviceable when played down back.
Reads the play very well and I like that he gets across and helps out his fellow defenders.
Killer_Mike
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We are probably familiar with this strategy. Had our fair share of mature aged players as short term solutions!
MAY 12 2017 - 11:51AM
Collingwood, caught between two strategies, says Chris Pelchen
Collingwood are a club torn between two list management strategies and have set themselves up for potential long-term on-field pain, according to former list management guru Chris Pelchen.
Pelchen, who played a key role in Port Adelaide's first AFL premiership and Hawthorn's recent golden era, has expressed grave concerns over the Magpies' off-season recruiting that brought in veterans Daniel Wells, Chris Mayne and Lynden Dunn from other clubs.
The trio were picked up by under-fire coach Nathan Buckley to help fast-track a return to finals after three consecutive barren seasons.
But after seven rounds, the three players have played just seven games between them this year and, with a 2-5 win-loss record, Collingwood are staring down the barrel of a fourth consecutive season without finals action.
"It will really challenge the leadership of the club," Pelchen told Fairfax Media.
"You'll potentially have different factions start to splinter the club because some people will think, 'We have gone too hard at getting mature-age recruits over the past couple of years at the expense of attacking the draft or ensuring we retain our younger players'.
"Some may have even believed the risk was too great but unfortunately, if you give too much control to your coach or any one senior figure in the club, then their concerns aren't heard or even worse, they are ignored.
"Personally, I feel that Nathan Buckley, whether it be through the influence of (president) Eddie (McGuire) or others, has led the push to bring these mature-age players into the club and it may very well hurt them."
Pelchen says the Magpies' woes have come down to poor recruiting. Photo: AFL Media/Getty Images
Pelchen, who also had a stint as St Kilda footy boss, admired Buckley for publicly putting his job on the line last year by saying there would be "no way" he would remain Collingwood coach if the club failed to make the top eight again, but he viewed the remarks as a double-edged sword.
"It displays a strength of character on one side but a degree of desperation on the other," he said.
"As a result, the mature-age players brought into the club are 'walking the plank' and expected to help the coach survive or go down with the ship.
"But either scenario represents short-term thinking and something that I don't think Collingwood needed to do.
"If they had maintained a strong approach to 'growing their own' and using their Total Player Payment space on developing players rather than spending it on older recruits, then I would argue they would be in a better position.
"Collingwood are undoubtedly a proud and successful club but desperate decisions will inevitably cause fragile outcomes and I believe the Magpies have misread their ambitions compared to their abilities, primarily out of loyalty to their coach."
Pelchen says the Pies should have had a greater focus on younger Draft talent. Photo: Pat Scala
Pelchen believes Collingwood will be forced to continue playing their older recruits to justify their recruitment to the club, exacerbating the situation.
"These senior games would be better used on younger players who will benefit from the experience and contribute to the team's future, but therein lies the predicament facing the Magpies - a senior coach publicly coaching for his survival versus what's best for the club beyond 2017," he said.
"The two are often in direct competition to each other unless you're the Bombers of 1993, the Hawks of 2008 or the Bulldogs of 2016."
Pelchen said Collingwood had erred in several ways with regards to their list strategy and was alarmed by suggestions that they have "maxed out" their salary cap despite having not featured in the finals since 2013. It's a scenario that he believes has left them vulnerable to losing talented youngsters to other clubs.
"Firstly, they have brought in too many players from opposition teams over the past three (to) four years. It needs to be quality over quantity. While quantity may increase overall depth, it has a dramatic effect on a club's capacity to develop and retain youth," he said.
"Secondly, the amount that Collingwood has paid on these experienced players. It's a natural effect that attracting mature-age recruits will increase a club's TPP spending, so it must be done both strategically and selectively.
"It's one thing to stretch your TPP space when playing in grand finals or being in the window of success – but to overestimate the value of your player list, or worse still, to overestimate the value of opposition players, is a real mistake.
"Teams like Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong would have all had understandable TPP challenges in recent years but the Magpies should be several years away from having similar problems.
"Multiple draft picks and increased spending have been allocated to secure opposition players against maintaining a stronger draft focus and building a 'war chest' of TPP space for the retention of youth."
Pelchen says Darcy Moore has been one of the Pies' few success stories. Photo: AFL Media/Getty Images
Pelchen took a dim view of Collingwood's recent record at the draft. Outside of Darcy Moore, Jordan De Goey and former GWS trio Adam Treloar, Taylor Adams and Will Hoskin-Elliott, Pelchen said there wasn't a lot to get excited about.
"From a pure numbers position they haven't had strong returns, which then places greater attention onto their overall list strategy," he said.
"Collingwood will now have to defend their position at some point. I anticipate the club will say, 'but we've picked up players like Treloar, Adams and Hoskin-Elliott in the past three years who are all current or potential stars so we've done the right thing'.
"Unfortunately, that is deflecting attention away from the real issues at play like: who have they selected or could have selected in the draft, how could we have better used the TPP space that the mature-age players have demanded, who do we risk losing because bigger contracts have been given to older players, and how many games of senior football will be lost on playing short-term recruits rather than developing younger talent?
"To minimise your draft participation is to limit your ability to turn over your list with the necessary talent required to be a force in the AFL competition."
Collingwood will aim to keep their faint finals hopes alive when they face Greater Western Sydney at Spotless Stadium on Saturday.
MAY 12 2017 - 11:51AM
Collingwood, caught between two strategies, says Chris Pelchen
Collingwood are a club torn between two list management strategies and have set themselves up for potential long-term on-field pain, according to former list management guru Chris Pelchen.
Pelchen, who played a key role in Port Adelaide's first AFL premiership and Hawthorn's recent golden era, has expressed grave concerns over the Magpies' off-season recruiting that brought in veterans Daniel Wells, Chris Mayne and Lynden Dunn from other clubs.
The trio were picked up by under-fire coach Nathan Buckley to help fast-track a return to finals after three consecutive barren seasons.
But after seven rounds, the three players have played just seven games between them this year and, with a 2-5 win-loss record, Collingwood are staring down the barrel of a fourth consecutive season without finals action.
"It will really challenge the leadership of the club," Pelchen told Fairfax Media.
"You'll potentially have different factions start to splinter the club because some people will think, 'We have gone too hard at getting mature-age recruits over the past couple of years at the expense of attacking the draft or ensuring we retain our younger players'.
"Some may have even believed the risk was too great but unfortunately, if you give too much control to your coach or any one senior figure in the club, then their concerns aren't heard or even worse, they are ignored.
"Personally, I feel that Nathan Buckley, whether it be through the influence of (president) Eddie (McGuire) or others, has led the push to bring these mature-age players into the club and it may very well hurt them."
Pelchen says the Magpies' woes have come down to poor recruiting. Photo: AFL Media/Getty Images
Pelchen, who also had a stint as St Kilda footy boss, admired Buckley for publicly putting his job on the line last year by saying there would be "no way" he would remain Collingwood coach if the club failed to make the top eight again, but he viewed the remarks as a double-edged sword.
"It displays a strength of character on one side but a degree of desperation on the other," he said.
"As a result, the mature-age players brought into the club are 'walking the plank' and expected to help the coach survive or go down with the ship.
"But either scenario represents short-term thinking and something that I don't think Collingwood needed to do.
"If they had maintained a strong approach to 'growing their own' and using their Total Player Payment space on developing players rather than spending it on older recruits, then I would argue they would be in a better position.
"Collingwood are undoubtedly a proud and successful club but desperate decisions will inevitably cause fragile outcomes and I believe the Magpies have misread their ambitions compared to their abilities, primarily out of loyalty to their coach."
Pelchen says the Pies should have had a greater focus on younger Draft talent. Photo: Pat Scala
Pelchen believes Collingwood will be forced to continue playing their older recruits to justify their recruitment to the club, exacerbating the situation.
"These senior games would be better used on younger players who will benefit from the experience and contribute to the team's future, but therein lies the predicament facing the Magpies - a senior coach publicly coaching for his survival versus what's best for the club beyond 2017," he said.
"The two are often in direct competition to each other unless you're the Bombers of 1993, the Hawks of 2008 or the Bulldogs of 2016."
Pelchen said Collingwood had erred in several ways with regards to their list strategy and was alarmed by suggestions that they have "maxed out" their salary cap despite having not featured in the finals since 2013. It's a scenario that he believes has left them vulnerable to losing talented youngsters to other clubs.
"Firstly, they have brought in too many players from opposition teams over the past three (to) four years. It needs to be quality over quantity. While quantity may increase overall depth, it has a dramatic effect on a club's capacity to develop and retain youth," he said.
"Secondly, the amount that Collingwood has paid on these experienced players. It's a natural effect that attracting mature-age recruits will increase a club's TPP spending, so it must be done both strategically and selectively.
"It's one thing to stretch your TPP space when playing in grand finals or being in the window of success – but to overestimate the value of your player list, or worse still, to overestimate the value of opposition players, is a real mistake.
"Teams like Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong would have all had understandable TPP challenges in recent years but the Magpies should be several years away from having similar problems.
"Multiple draft picks and increased spending have been allocated to secure opposition players against maintaining a stronger draft focus and building a 'war chest' of TPP space for the retention of youth."
Pelchen says Darcy Moore has been one of the Pies' few success stories. Photo: AFL Media/Getty Images
Pelchen took a dim view of Collingwood's recent record at the draft. Outside of Darcy Moore, Jordan De Goey and former GWS trio Adam Treloar, Taylor Adams and Will Hoskin-Elliott, Pelchen said there wasn't a lot to get excited about.
"From a pure numbers position they haven't had strong returns, which then places greater attention onto their overall list strategy," he said.
"Collingwood will now have to defend their position at some point. I anticipate the club will say, 'but we've picked up players like Treloar, Adams and Hoskin-Elliott in the past three years who are all current or potential stars so we've done the right thing'.
"Unfortunately, that is deflecting attention away from the real issues at play like: who have they selected or could have selected in the draft, how could we have better used the TPP space that the mature-age players have demanded, who do we risk losing because bigger contracts have been given to older players, and how many games of senior football will be lost on playing short-term recruits rather than developing younger talent?
"To minimise your draft participation is to limit your ability to turn over your list with the necessary talent required to be a force in the AFL competition."
Collingwood will aim to keep their faint finals hopes alive when they face Greater Western Sydney at Spotless Stadium on Saturday.
I'll be surprised if Buckley survives past this year the Malthouse/Buckley succession plan has back fired massively.
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Killer_Mike
Premiership Player
- Thread starter
- #205
Round 5
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Killer_Mike
Premiership Player
- Thread starter
- #206
More than a third of the way through the season and I thought we could give a few thoughts on how we think some players are going in regards to development good or bad!
Please keep the answers constructive and not just an opportunity to put a player down!
Three things I have noticed.
(1) Joe Daniher being used in the ruck!
Some might find this controversial but I have think it's really added another string to his bow and playing further up the ground has helped the guy to express himself more. Being the focal point deep I believe would have been too much of a burden for a young guy to carry and we all know the expectations he must carry when lining up for goal 30 meters out directly in front!
Playing in the ruck also gives Leuey a chance to rest and eliminates the need to play a second ruck which I believe is not required in today's fast paced football.
(2) Playing some of the returning players out of position in the VFL.
I think the use of Hocking, Howlett, Stanton and TBell in the VFL has been first class!
All of these players have been great servants of the club and all have quite rightly earned the respect of the coaches and supporters. With the demands from supporters for wins at both levels it would have been an easy choice to have these guys playing in their preferred positions and giving us far more experience around the coalface. This has not been the case.
Although they have had rotations through midfield the bulk of the game time has been given to young developing players that are going to be taking this club forward. This may cost us a win or two throughout the year but long term the positives of giving the kids experience will pay off tenfold!
(3) Using Zach Merrett through half back.
Last year Zach was primarily a forward of center midfielder and he fulfilled that role very well. Winning our B&F and also finishing top ten in the Brownlow is a clear indication of his standing in the game. Zach finished with an average of 2 rebound 50's and and almost 5 inside 50's!
This year Zachs rebound 50's have increased to around 3.7 a game as opposed to a still healthy 3.6 inside 50's!
This is a clear indication that Zach is covering more ground and also becoming a more complete footballer. Although we would love for Zach to be the designated kicker going into forward 50, the role he has had off half back has been equally important.
A good proportion of our goals are from scoring chains that have started from defensive 50 and Zach has been a fundamental part of this. Its becoming common place that Zach takes that risky kick that sets up our attack through the center of the ground and the kid is nailing a good proportion of them. It takes ice running through your veins to take those kicks and I think it's a clear indication that he is taking a big step towards being a top ten player in the league.The added bonus from this role change is that it has released Goddard to go into the midfield and flourish as our primary clearance player.
I am interested in your thoughts on what you think has been an improvement that you have noticed or even something you would like to see happen!
Please keep the answers constructive and not just an opportunity to put a player down!
Three things I have noticed.
(1) Joe Daniher being used in the ruck!
Some might find this controversial but I have think it's really added another string to his bow and playing further up the ground has helped the guy to express himself more. Being the focal point deep I believe would have been too much of a burden for a young guy to carry and we all know the expectations he must carry when lining up for goal 30 meters out directly in front!
Playing in the ruck also gives Leuey a chance to rest and eliminates the need to play a second ruck which I believe is not required in today's fast paced football.
(2) Playing some of the returning players out of position in the VFL.
I think the use of Hocking, Howlett, Stanton and TBell in the VFL has been first class!
All of these players have been great servants of the club and all have quite rightly earned the respect of the coaches and supporters. With the demands from supporters for wins at both levels it would have been an easy choice to have these guys playing in their preferred positions and giving us far more experience around the coalface. This has not been the case.
Although they have had rotations through midfield the bulk of the game time has been given to young developing players that are going to be taking this club forward. This may cost us a win or two throughout the year but long term the positives of giving the kids experience will pay off tenfold!
(3) Using Zach Merrett through half back.
Last year Zach was primarily a forward of center midfielder and he fulfilled that role very well. Winning our B&F and also finishing top ten in the Brownlow is a clear indication of his standing in the game. Zach finished with an average of 2 rebound 50's and and almost 5 inside 50's!
This year Zachs rebound 50's have increased to around 3.7 a game as opposed to a still healthy 3.6 inside 50's!
This is a clear indication that Zach is covering more ground and also becoming a more complete footballer. Although we would love for Zach to be the designated kicker going into forward 50, the role he has had off half back has been equally important.
A good proportion of our goals are from scoring chains that have started from defensive 50 and Zach has been a fundamental part of this. Its becoming common place that Zach takes that risky kick that sets up our attack through the center of the ground and the kid is nailing a good proportion of them. It takes ice running through your veins to take those kicks and I think it's a clear indication that he is taking a big step towards being a top ten player in the league.The added bonus from this role change is that it has released Goddard to go into the midfield and flourish as our primary clearance player.
I am interested in your thoughts on what you think has been an improvement that you have noticed or even something you would like to see happen!
Daniher playing in the ruck is basically a red herring built on that goal he kicked against the Pies.
He is playing up the ground as a forward because Hooker has essentially been anchored to the goal square (or at least the modern version of being anchored to the goal square) and because it maximises the respective strengths of our two key forwards. Daniher and Leuenberger are frequently in the defensive half of the ground together which is not happening because Daniher is on the ball.
Stewart mentioned in his post game interviews that he is now working on his ruck craft.
This sorry story of Dainher in the ruck is almost at an end.
He is playing up the ground as a forward because Hooker has essentially been anchored to the goal square (or at least the modern version of being anchored to the goal square) and because it maximises the respective strengths of our two key forwards. Daniher and Leuenberger are frequently in the defensive half of the ground together which is not happening because Daniher is on the ball.
Stewart mentioned in his post game interviews that he is now working on his ruck craft.
This sorry story of Dainher in the ruck is almost at an end.
Killer_Mike
Premiership Player
- Thread starter
- #208
Stewart was used as a ruck at GWS.
I disagree with your point on Daniher playing up the ground because Hooker is stationed deep! I believe Joe has far more impact up the ground and it suits our team first mentality of sharing the responsibility of kicking goals!
More goal kickers you have the more dangerous your team becomes.
Of course Daniher is up the ground because of Hooker. Compare with last year when he was much more limited because there was no other key forward target for many of the games.
Developing goal kicking options is not about being team first or (un)selfishness, it's about being more dangerous and kicking more goals.
Good teams have a spread of 4 or 5 forwards who kick the bulk of their goals (that midfield goals have any bearing on a season when compared to building the spread of 4 to 5 forwards is almost at the level of being total bullshit). The best way for us to achieve the spread of goal kickers is to utilise their respective strengths.
Hooker is a monster who is most dangerous under a high ball (still better than Joe). Daniher has a goal kicking range of 60m and at least a 60m range kicking to the advantage of a forward (which means that he is dangerous 90-100m from goal). So Hooker plays more of a tradition full forward role and Daniher player what is really a traditional CHF role.
Killer_Mike
Premiership Player
- Thread starter
- #210
I like Joe roaming further up the ground, he's so dangerous getting the ball 50-80m out from goal given his ability to hit a forward target or kick a long goal.
What I would like to see? More midfield minutes for Myers. Needs to rotate more with Watson and Goddard. I want to see Langford getting a gig in our midfield as well but whether he is up to it at AFL level remains to be seen. I'd expect this to happen more towards the back end of the year though, especially if we drop away a bit. Can't do a lot worse in the clearances than we are at the moment though.
What I would like to see? More midfield minutes for Myers. Needs to rotate more with Watson and Goddard. I want to see Langford getting a gig in our midfield as well but whether he is up to it at AFL level remains to be seen. I'd expect this to happen more towards the back end of the year though, especially if we drop away a bit. Can't do a lot worse in the clearances than we are at the moment though.
Joe covered massive ground last year and he continues to cover massive ground this season. The main difference is that he is finding it easier to get the ball since the team has more weapons and opponents cannot concentrate solely on denying him the footy.
The one thing I have been very impressed by has been the influence of our three small forwards. Each brings something a little different and each has been very effective in their own way. ChampionData ranks all three in the top twenty small forwards and that is quite remarkable given it has been a clear weakness for Essendon over the past 10 - 15 years.
Also the quality of the new draftees. Each of them is performing admirably in the VFL - typically having a significant and consistent influence from week-to-week. For so long we have had younger players who never seemed to dominate at VFL level but still found themselves in a position for a senior's spot.
The one thing I have been very impressed by has been the influence of our three small forwards. Each brings something a little different and each has been very effective in their own way. ChampionData ranks all three in the top twenty small forwards and that is quite remarkable given it has been a clear weakness for Essendon over the past 10 - 15 years.
Also the quality of the new draftees. Each of them is performing admirably in the VFL - typically having a significant and consistent influence from week-to-week. For so long we have had younger players who never seemed to dominate at VFL level but still found themselves in a position for a senior's spot.
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Top twenty small forwards? How many Small forwards are there in the comp getting regular games though?
I should clarify that it was small-and-medium forwards. So it includes the Eddie Betts of the world but also the likes of Robbie Gray, Jake Stringer and Mark LeCras. Basically any forward that isn't considered key position.
So I think it is a reasonably achievement.
Is there a better small forward duo in the league than Raz/Tippa? Or is bias getting in my way?
Maybe a better way to put it - is there a more in form small forward duo in the league?
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Wouldnt mind looking at an outside runner to develop for the future. Stanton is almost done and despite travs improvement, an injury would limit a crucial link man.
Might add that to the list of needs;
(1) Key Position forward - an out an out full forward to develop would be ideal.
(2) Inside midfielder (with pace) - would like a p.o.d inside midfielder. One with pace &/or elite kicking would be ideal.
(3) Half back flanker - Gleeson is solid and McGrathis there atm, long term will see us short of kickers with Kelly, BJ, Bags getting on.
(4) Outside midfielder - As mentioned, bar Trav, we are limited to spurt players. Limit us a genuine link option
Might add that to the list of needs;
(1) Key Position forward - an out an out full forward to develop would be ideal.
(2) Inside midfielder (with pace) - would like a p.o.d inside midfielder. One with pace &/or elite kicking would be ideal.
(3) Half back flanker - Gleeson is solid and McGrathis there atm, long term will see us short of kickers with Kelly, BJ, Bags getting on.
(4) Outside midfielder - As mentioned, bar Trav, we are limited to spurt players. Limit us a genuine link option
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They're basically the only ones, although I think Fasolo/Elliott could be just as good if they had a couple of half decent talls and I think the Smith/Greene combo at GWS is pretty damn good too.
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Yeah........ But we like Raz and Tippa better than those spuds.
You both think Daniher is a CHF, not sure what you're arguing about
Little Birdy
Debutant
Good points Killer. My only concern for Joe is that now that he is starting to get a profile and press coverage, that he does't get ahead of himself. There have been a few times in recent games that I've noticed that instead of passing the ball off to advantage he has been ignoring the first option to pass off in order to have the big shot, which hasn't always paid off in terms of 6 points.
I'm rapt that he's gaining confidence and getting praise for his output, but being a team player is still more important than individual accolades.
Killer_Mike
Premiership Player
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Yeah, he's still young guy and I think as he matures I think he will develop that leadership side more.
For now I actually think it's pretty exciting to see him transform into that player that wants the responsibility. All the great players have that quality and joe has that amazing quality of self belief.
I think he's one of those generational players and exciting to have him at our club.
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Killer_Mike
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Round 6
Killer_Mike
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