List Mgmt. List within a list (players under 25)

[ferrisb]

I wrote a post yesterday that finished with a comment about our 'list within a list'.

When I look at our list, first I see 40 senior players (ignoring rookies for now) but then within that I also see this list of young talent (26 players aged under 25).

The consensus amongst Carlton fans seems to be that the serious ladder climb starts next year, and it's going to be done on the back of the younger guys building up games, experience, fitness and strength.

So, what does our youth look like? How old are they? Where do they play? If you fast forward a few years, where are the holes in the list? Where are the strengths?



Key: GREEN = best 22. YELLOW = has some senior experience, shown some signs, not yet established best 22. RED = mostly unproven/speculative.

 

[ferrisb]

Notes

• We currently have 8 young best 22 players, but the spread is concentrated in backline (no surprise)
• Backline x 4 is flying (Plowman, Marchbank, Weitering, Docherty)
• Midfield x 3 (Cripps, SPS, Dow)
• Forwards x 1 (Curnow)
• Ruck is the only spot without some exposed form. Yes, HMac#1 could end up a ruck, but for now I assume McKay is a fwd-ruck.
• Picked for position: I've tried to pick the players in their best positions and kept it genuinely balanced but it's still subjective. Should Lang be on a wing instead of HFF? Probably. Is Charlie a mid instead of a CHF? Possibly. It should be noted that if Charlie is a mid, we have no best 22 young fwds.
• A bit harsh? Some will argue Byrne, Fisher, Silvagni, Pickett, Kennedy, others are already best 21. I'm not bashing any of them and I think they all have big futures, but as yet they are to me kids with potential, not above-average AFL players.
• I took poetic license with Dow and O'Brien (yes I know both should be red, but I overruled the system and bumped Dow up two notches and O'Brien up one)
• Graham & Kerridge are currently more productive than some of those I have named in the 21. But I think they are play in case of emergency and aren't competing with Williamson/O'Brien types, but more Murphy/E Curnow types
• Players recruited by SOS are marked with a * (that's a SOS star, not an Ess***** asterisk). 21 of the 26 were recruited by SOS. No surprise that the guy in charge of recruiting for three years has picked most of the youth, but 21 over 3 years is huge (especially since not counting rookies and players could have already been delisted)
• Youthful youth: 19 players aged 21 or under
• Needs: Still need some more mids and fwds (well er der, I hear you saying). Some/much of this will come from existing kids 'making it', but some is still needed from draft/trade

Admin

• Ages taken as at our season-opening win against the Tigers in round 1
• Why 24 and under? Several reasons, but mostly so I could include Doc...
• I'm not saying drop or delist everyone over 24, or that we aren't making finals for x years etc but I just want to isolate this end of the list
• Why best 21? Just because it's cleaner formatting than 22 Joking, having Graham and Kerridge in their own category works neatly.....But mostly formatting
• I might redo the team based off Carlton BF Consensus Best 22, but that will depend on CBF levels
• Could this thread have fit in the List Management? Maybe. Should I have clogged up FBI's yoof thread? Perhaps. But I think this deserves its own discussion.

 

[HARKER]

Good thread and with a bit of List Management thrown in, I have something likes this, all being well:

This years 24 and under team:

Byrne Macreadie Plowman
Docherty Marchbank Garlett......Macreadie has some way to go, but the balance feels just about right to me.

McKay Cripps SPS
Williamson Kennedy Dow.........Young, but not a bad blend of inside and outside

CCurnow Weitering Pickett
Silvagni Kerr Fisher.................Happy with that. The medium talls are smart and dangerous and smalls are tackle-happy and can kick goals.

Lang O'Brien Cuningham and Polson.......Not too heavy on talls and plenty of run along with goal-kickers.


We're OK with:

Key Position Defenders: Covered as best we can be, along with the possible JGM in the wings. Jones is still relatively young also.
Small & Medium Defenders: Happy with the coverage there now, with Garlett capable fo going back along with Mullett as back-up.
Rucks: Not required with De Koning being the project player, Phillips being what should be in the prime of his career and two capable rucks in hand.
Outside Mids: We could be O.K. here, also. Time will tell, but O'Brien, Williamson, Cuningham could be enough.

End of year requirements:

Quality mids: Absolute necessity. One FA and first pick in the ND.
Goal-kicking small to medium forwards: This could easily become a must get area. Trade for a goal-kicker?
Key Position Forward: SOS loves his KPF's and even though BenSilvagni is there to be taken, we may want something a little more ready-to-go.

Lots of players still have lots to prove, but the cover seems to be in place, but more quality is required to balance out the whole.
Going to be fishing for mids and goal-kickers........at this stage.

 

[TerryWallet]

Like the thread Ferris. This is how i have been looking at our List for a while now.

FDD....From Docherty Down. The dearth in our list is in the 25-30 age. A wasteland bar 1 or 2. So our future (hopefully) dominant sides start with Doc and the huge group of players under him in age from 18-23. That list (your list above) is superb in quantity, superb in quality, and superb in balance. And there is more to add yet.

PS: my one quibble is the non rating of Tom Williamson as Best 1st 22...not even in the "a bit harsh category" lol

I am really surprised that he isn't considered a lock first 18 player by everyone who watched Carlton play this year. I would bet my left knacker that he is named in the starting 18 every week for the next 12 year unless injured. What he produced last year was superb considering he was a baby age wise and junior experience wise. He ticks all the boxes. Elite athlete. Elite skills. Elite dedication. Elite nous (to pick up the gameplan so quickly for one so inexperienced). Eye of the Tiger( towards the Game, towards training, towards the opposition, towards standing by teammates).

Yeah, i reckon he goes alright

Lock him in imho.

 

[Jabba73]

According to all serious news outlets, we have no future.

 

[AceAndy]

According to all serious news outlets, we have no future.

Not only news outlets.
I was reading a thread on the main board re 2018 Ladder predictions and most had us in that 13th - 16th position. Even though most didnt rate us for 2018 a few conceded we had a young list and might be on the rise.

 

[TerryWallet]

According to all serious news outlets, we have no future.

To be fair , i think most of the footy talking heads know that we are a rising force in the future. It is commented on a lot by the ex players etc in the media.

For most, they are employed to see just 2018 as the future. That is what they are paid to sell and paid to talk about. I think it is fair for them not to be overly effusive about us yet.

We as Carlton fans on the other hand are firmly fixated on 2018 of course, but mostly beyond.

 

[Arr0w]

Great thread ferrisb !

The future looks better than in the last decade. Still work to do, but with FA's continued shrewd trading and early draft picks, it seems we are finals bound in 2020 and beyond

 

[HBF]

Great post ferrisb.
Our kids look amazing and we might put a nice cherry on top in this years super draft.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

A lot to like in this thread ferrisb I like TerryWallet think a massive over sight in the Willo non selection as best 22.

 

[Soapy V]

B: Docherty Weitering Plowman
HB: Byrne Marchbank Williamson
C: Pickett Cripps SPS
HF: Garlett Charlie Cuningham
F: Silvagni Kerr LeBois
Foll: McKay Kennedy Dow
Int: Macreadie Polson Fisher O'Brien
Em: Lang DeKoning Schumacher McDaid G-Mac

Bloody Hell that's exciting.


Only best 22 to add would be Kreuzer Murphy Jones Simmo and Curnow. Great future

 

[ferrisb]

An actual thread meant for posting best 22 youth....

You're welcome, Soapy.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Good thread ferrisb

I pick our 22 aged under 25 as follows - current Best 22 in bold (11), players such as Fisher, Lang, Garlett, Cuningham are very close to current Best 22. McKay and Dow to get there by the end of 2018.

FB. Byrne 23. Marchbank 21. Plowman 23.
HB. Williamson 19 Weitering 20. Docherty 24.
C. Lang 22. Kennedy 20. SPS 20.
HF. Garlett 21. Charlie 21. Jack 20.
FF. Pickett 21. Harry 20. Cuningham. 20

R. TDK 18. Cripps. 23. Fisher. 19

I Polson 20. Macreadie 19. Dow. 18. O’Brien 18.

E. Graham. 23. Kerridge 24. Kerr 19.

Also Schumacher 19.

Over 25s current Best 22- to be replaced by:
Kreuzer -TDK
Murphy - Polson
Ed - O’Brien
Jones - Macreadie
Simmo - Byrne
Wright - Garlett
Casboult - Harry
Thomas - Cuningham

 

[ray8182]

Williamson has to go green.

I thought Byrne proved he was best 22 unless you think the knee injury will be a problem.

Fair categorising of players though. A number of the guys in yellow will probably cement there position this year.




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[Blues90]

I wrote a post yesterday that finished with a comment about our 'list within a list'.

When I look at our list, first I see 40 senior players (ignoring rookies for now) but then within that I also see this list of young talent (26 players aged under 25).

The consensus amongst Carlton fans seems to be that the serious ladder climb starts next year, and it's going to be done on the back of the younger guys building up games, experience, fitness and strength.

So, what does our youth look like? How old are they? Where do they play? If you fast forward a few years, where are the holes in the list? Where are the strengths?

View attachment 451949

Key: GREEN = best 22. YELLOW = has some senior experience, shown some signs, not yet established best 22. RED = mostly unproven/speculative.

You cant reaallly have dow and o'brien in the yellow they havent proven s**t yet congrata they were first round picks but so are many many players who dont make it

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[ferrisb]

Good thread and with a bit of List Management thrown in, I have something likes this, all being well:

This years 24 and under team:

Byrne Macreadie Plowman
Docherty Marchbank Garlett......Macreadie has some way to go, but the balance feels just about right to me.

McKay Cripps SPS
Williamson Kennedy Dow.........Young, but not a bad blend of inside and outside

CCurnow Weitering Pickett
Silvagni Kerr Fisher.................Happy with that. The medium talls are smart and dangerous and smalls are tackle-happy and can kick goals.

Lang O'Brien Cuningham and Polson.......Not too heavy on talls and plenty of run along with goal-kickers.


We're OK with:

Key Position Defenders: Covered as best we can be, along with the possible JGM in the wings. Jones is still relatively young also.
Small & Medium Defenders: Happy with the coverage there now, with Garlett capable fo going back along with Mullett as back-up.
Rucks: Not required with De Koning being the project player, Phillips being what should be in the prime of his career and two capable rucks in hand.
Outside Mids: We could be O.K. here, also. Time will tell, but O'Brien, Williamson, Cuningham could be enough.

End of year requirements:

Quality mids: Absolute necessity. One FA and first pick in the ND.
Goal-kicking small to medium forwards: This could easily become a must get area. Trade for a goal-kicker?
Key Position Forward: SOS loves his KPF's and even though BenSilvagni is there to be taken, we may want something a little more ready-to-go.

Lots of players still have lots to prove, but the cover seems to be in place, but more quality is required to balance out the whole.
Going to be fishing for mids and goal-kickers........at this stage.

I didn't want to labour on about what we needed by position. I was hoping my post would encourage others to do so. Bravo on hitting the mark straight away!

Like the thread Ferris. This is how i have been looking at our List for a while now.

FDD....From Docherty Down. The dearth in our list is in the 25-30 age. A wasteland bar 1 or 2. So our future (hopefully) dominant sides start with Doc and the huge group of players under him in age from 18-23. That list (your list above) is superb in quantity, superb in quality, and superb in balance. And there is more to add yet.

PS: my one quibble is the non rating of Tom Williamson as Best 1st 22...not even in the "a bit harsh category" lol

I am really surprised that he isn't considered a lock first 18 player by everyone who watched Carlton play this year. I would bet my left knacker that he is named in the starting 18 every week for the next 12 year unless injured. What he produced last year was superb considering he was a baby age wise and junior experience wise. He ticks all the boxes. Elite athlete. Elite skills. Elite dedication. Elite nous (to pick up the gameplan so quickly for one so inexperienced). Eye of the Tiger( towards the Game, towards training, towards the opposition, towards standing by teammates).

Yeah, i reckon he goes alright

Lock him in imho.

FDD, I fricking love it, Terry!

A lot to like in this thread ferrisb I like TerryWallet think a massive over sight in the Willo non selection as best 22.

Williamson has to go green.

I thought Byrne proved he was best 22 unless you think the knee injury will be a problem.

Fair categorising of players though. A number of the guys in yellow will probably cement there position this year.

Great to see a lot of love for Williamson, I am a fan too.

IMHO he's not yet best 18 yet (full team) but yeah I probably should have had him starting in the youth 18.

He made the 1st bench spot in the consensus best 22, which is about where I rate him at this stage.

Interestingly, the consensus 22 (big shout out to Matty411 BTW!) had similar vote tallies for Williamson, Fisher, Dow, Cuningham, Lang...... At roughly half the votes of the starting backs and mids.

You cant reaallly have dow and o'brien in the yellow

they havent proven s**t yet congrata they were first round picks but so are many many players who dont make it

Yeah I admit that was naughty. I usually believe draft picks are unproven until they are proven at afl level. But rules are meant to be broken

In this case, I can't see the club holding out equal hope for Obrien vs say Polson or Schumacher. Having him in red is underselling his potential. As for Dow, if the club had its crystal ball out and were projecting our midfield in 2021, I think they'd start with Cripps, SPS, Kennedy, Dow then list others. I can't imagine they'd be planning for Cripps, SPS, Kennedy, Lang, Fisher, Cuningham, Pickett, Polson THEN Dow.....
------
Really loving the discussion everyone, please keep it coming. Does anyone know other teams lists well enough to try the same as a comparison. Brisbane might be the best place to start?

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Williamson has to go green.

I thought Byrne proved he was best 22 unless you think the knee injury will be a problem.

Fair categorising of players though. A number of the guys in yellow will probably cement there position this year.




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Jury out on Byrne. Would not be in the Best 22 if Docherty was fit.
Was playing last year after Cripps, Ed, Marchbank, Cuningham and others were injured.
Rate him in the stiff not to be in the 22 Group.

 

[Coona Blues]

Really loving the discussion everyone, please keep it coming. Does anyone know other teams lists well enough to try the same as a comparison. Brisbane might be the best place to start?

Not going to go to the same levels, but


CUTLER(45), McSTAY(60), GARDINER(62)
Cox(8), ANDREWS(58), MAYES(95)
ROBERTSON(47), BERRY(16), WITHERDEN(9)
CAMERON(73), HIPWOOD(30), TAYLOR(85)
Rayner, Ballenden, BARRETT(18)
Smith(9), MCCLUGGAGE(18), Mathiesen(24)
Keays(26), Paparone(55), Allison(5), Skinner(1)

Dawson(18), McInerney, Lyons, Hinge, Z.Bailey,
Payne, Starcevich, Wooller.

() - number of games played

Bolded are pretty much best 22 locks or played significant games last season.
Some positions debatable, but like us fairly set in defence. Strong half forward
line. Excellent group of young mids, but a year or two behind us development
wise, although this could be argued. They lack a Cripps to lead their mids.

Outside the 22 have relatively highly rated mids Bailey, Starcevich and Lyons.
Semi developed ruck McInerney, KPP Payne and tall forward/mid Wooller. They
are likely to rise something similar to us. I like to think we have a little more "top
end" talent, but may just be bias.

 

[CJMB]

My go at it. Guys who have played footy for us or other clubs and I think will be best 22 are bold, players I think could potentially become best 22 by the end of this year are in italics. I'm probably being too optimistic but anyways...

FB: Plowman, Marchbank, Docherty*
HB: Byrne, Weitering, Williamson
C: Lang, Petrevski-Seton, Cuningham
HF: Pickett, Curnow, Garlett
FF: Silvagni, McKay, Fisher
FOL: De Koning, Cripps, Kennedy
INT: Dow, O'Brien, Macreadie, Kerridge
EMG: Polson, Graham, Kerr, Schumacher

Always the possibility of throwing McKay into the ruck, Kerr to full forward and having TDK as an emergency. Similarly Polson could make it in for Macreadie or even Kerridge although I think he'll probably hold his spot for a while as he played some reasonably footy towards the end of the year and he does typically get himself 20+ a game which we'd need his replacement to make up for.

Looing at the 18.. it's already been said but we're pretty good for defenders. I'm really happy with that back 6. In the mids Cripps & Kennedy do the heavy lifting on ball then there's Samo, Lang, Cuningham, Pickett, Garlett and Fisher occupying the other mid and small forward spots. All should be able to run through the midfield and head forward to kick goals and apply pressure. Charlie, Harry and Jack all compliment each others skills/ability as far as a set of talls. Got the tall versatility with Weiters able to move forward, Charlie able to go into the middle, Harry should be able to do some ruck work, Jack can move back if needed. Not to mention Garlett can go back, Willo can get on a wing, etc.

Plenty of run coming off the bench with Dow, LOB, Macreadie and Kerridge (maybe Polson).

In 2019 we might only have a couple of the senior guys in the mix with that 22 (or one similar). Kreuz & Murph I'm relatively confident will be there and maybe Ed, Jones & Wright...

Feeling good about where we're heading.

 

[Coona Blues]

* aka Essendon
McKenna(23), HARTLEY(37), Zerk-Thatcher
SAAD(48), Francis(5), GLEESON(69)
Z.MERRETT(81), PARISH(40), McGRATH(21)
SMITH(109), DANIHER(93), McDONALD-TIPUNGWUTI(44)
STRINGER(89), STEWART(34), FANTASIA(47)
Draper, Langford(31), Mutch
Clarke, Redman(3), Begley(3), Houlahan

Ridley, Mynott, Guelfi, Long(3), McNiece

Don't seem to enter the young talent conversation much, but very well
served, particularly forward. Impressive centreline, but other on ballers
very much unproven, though not without potential.

Really stocking up on highly rated medium forwards like Houlahan and
Begley, suggesting Stringer, Smith, AMT and possibly Fantasia likely to
do some midfield time. Heppell only 25, so have some reason to be
optimistic in the future.

Will do a couple more this arvo (Queensland time)

 

[ferrisb]

* aka Essendon
McKenna(23), HARTLEY(37), Zerk-Thatcher
SAAD(48), Francis(5), GLEESON(69)
Z.MERRETT(81), PARISH(40), McGRATH(21)
SMITH(109), DANIHER(93), McDONALD-TIPUNGWUTI(44)
STRINGER(89), STEWART(34), FANTASIA(47)
Draper, Langford(31), Mutch
Clarke, Redman(3), Begley(3), Houlahan

Ridley, Mynott, Guelfi, Long(3), McNiece

Don't seem to enter the young talent conversation much, but very well
served, particularly forward. Impressive centreline, but other on ballers
very much unproven, though not without potential.

Really stocking up on highly rated medium forwards like Houlahan and
Begley, suggesting Stringer, Smith, AMT and possibly Fantasia likely to
do some midfield time. Heppell only 25, so have some reason to be
optimistic in the future.

Will do a couple more this arvo (Queensland time)

Great work, CB.

Just one question; which Queensland time?

1) An hour behind Melbourne?
2) Like whenever you feel like it, the humidity has dipped below 174% and the flies have dropped dead?
3) Bob Katter-esque 60-70 years behind Melbourne?

Just want to know when to check back in here

 

[Coona Blues]

GWS

Buntine(41), Himmelberg(16), TOMLINSON(91)
Cumming, CORR(59), WILLIAMS(76)
KELLY(84), CONIGLIO(95), WHITFIELD(90)
TARANTO(14), PATTON(77), GREENE(117)
Bonar, CAMERON(112), Perryman(8)
Flynn, HOPPER(23), Setterfield(2)

Finlayson, Shipley, Sproule, D.Buckley(39)

Giles-Langdon, Taylor, Daniels, Tiziani, J.Buckley, Stein.

Plenty of upper case, and plenty more who would be at other clubs.
Clearly targeting KPP and small/medium forwards with recent drafting.

Impressive list then you realise Shiel and Lobb just miss the age criteria.
Scully, Haynes, Davis, Kennedy, even Ward have years left. I was thinking
with trades/go home, that they may have "missed the boat", quick analysis
suggests this is a long way off.

MELBOURNE

HARMES(44), O.MACDONALD(37), LEVER(56)
HUNT(41), FROST(56), J.Smith(3)
Stretch(36), VINEY(88), Salem(46)
NEAL-BULLEN(34), HOGAN(51), PETRACCA(39)
Balic(4), Weidemann(10), BRAYSHAW(36)
Filipovic, OLIVER(35), TYSON(90)

Wagner(23), Bugg(93), Hannan(20), Kent(58)

Petty, McKenna, Kennedy-Harris(28), Spargo, Johnstone,
King, Keilty, Baker, Fritsch.

Another good young list with plenty of pieces in place across
the park, T.MacDonald and Gawn just outside the age group.
The future is bright, culture and the ceiling of the likes of Petracca,
Lever, Oscar MacDonald and Brayshaw will decide their success.
Flat track bullies or genuine contenders? Remains to be seen.

 

[Coona Blues]

Great work, CB.

Just one question; which Queensland time?

1) An hour behind Melbourne?
2) Like whenever you feel like it, the humidity has dipped below 174% and the flies have dropped dead?
3) Bob Katter-esque 60-70 years behind Melbourne?

Just want to know when to check back in here

I'll split the difference on option 3 thanks Ferris. This old bloke longs for simpler times 30-40 years back would do nicely
Oh, and you can keep your city. I would love the opportunity to see regular live footy, especially the Blues, but would struggle
in the concrete jungle you call home.

 

[Coona Blues]

St. KILDA

White(4), Goddard(9), WEBSTER(68)
Coffield, Austin(13), Clark
ACRES(44), ROSS(81), Sinclair(44)
BILLINGS(64), Battle(1), MEMBREY(50)
GRESHAM(40), MCCARTIN(22), Lonie(39)
LONGER(60), DUNSTAN(69), STEELE(37)

McKenzie(21), Marshall(1), Long(4), Minchington(28)

Wright(33), Phillips, Rice, Freeman, Clavarino, Pierce(1),
Connellan, Paton, Langlands, Joyce.

A little thin compared to the above, but some proven quality and some
untried talent. Need some more pieces, but decent base there.

GEELONG

BEWS(50), KOLODJASHNIJ(47), THURLOW(39)
O'Connor(2), Gardner, Z.Guthrie(9)
Narkle, Kelly, COCKATOO(32)
Parsons(20), House, McCarthy(27)
Miers, Buzza(6), Gregson(29)
Ratugolea, Fogarty, Parfitt(15)

Cunico(1), Simpson(5), Constable, Hayball, Jones, Henry.

Bloody thin bunch of youngsters, clearly in the now. Cliff approaching.


PORT ADELAIDE

BYRNE-JONES(43), CLUREY(41), Garner
HOUSTON(17), Hombsch*(84), Bonner(4)
Toumpas(37), WINES(107), POWELL-PEPPER(22)
Johnson(5), Marshall(3), Amon(36)
NEADE(58), Hayes, WINGARD(126)
Howard(10), Atley(3), Barry(5)

Snelling(1), Farrell, Drew, Ladhams

Lienert, Frampton, Patmore, Hewett, Irra

A couple of top quality names, but very thin list. Interesting 4 rucks among them.
Like the Cats, playing for now. Big gamble.

 

[ParapMarkets]

St. KILDA

White(4), Goddard(9), WEBSTER(68)
Coffield, Austin(13), Clark
ACRES(44), ROSS(81), Sinclair(44)
BILLINGS(64), Battle(1), MEMBREY(50)
GRESHAM(40), MCCARTIN(22), Lonie(39)
LONGER(60), DUNSTAN(69), STEELE(37)

McKenzie(21), Marshall(1), Long(4), Minchington(28)

Wright(33), Phillips, Rice, Freeman, Clavarino, Pierce(1),
Connellan, Paton, Langlands, Joyce.

A little thin compared to the above, but some proven quality and some
untried talent. Need some more pieces, but decent base there.

GEELONG

BEWS(50), KOLODJASHNIJ(47), THURLOW(39)
O'Connor(2), Gardner, Z.Guthrie(9)
Narkle, Kelly, COCKATOO(32)
Parsons(20), House, McCarthy(27)
Miers, Buzza(6), Gregson(29)
Ratugolea, Fogarty, Parfitt(15)

Cunico(1), Simpson(5), Constable, Hayball, Jones, Henry.

Bloody thin bunch of youngsters, clearly in the now. Cliff approaching.


PORT ADELAIDE

BYRNE-JONES(43), CLUREY(41), Garner
HOUSTON(17), Hombsch*(84), Bonner(4)
Toumpas(37), WINES(107), POWELL-PEPPER(22)
Johnson(5), Marshall(3), Amon(36)
NEADE(58), Hayes, WINGARD(126)
Howard(10), Atley(3), Barry(5)

Snelling(1), Farrell, Drew, Ladhams

Lienert, Frampton, Patmore, Hewett, Irra

A couple of top quality names, but very thin list. Interesting 4 rucks among them.
Like the Cats, playing for now. Big gamble.

Great work Coona.