Opinion Matthew Nicks: Adelaide's Coach (Part 2) - Full Support of the Board

[AFC979810]

It was a discussion and his coaching philosophy came out

You dont think Bucks would be a good coach for us in 2025?

 

[George Kramer]

I don't mind him sticking with the oldies eg Brodie Smith

We don't have many experienced players. You can have faith that he'll come good and deliver something meaningful.

The problem from my view is that average players seemingly find a niche role and become ensconced in the 22 without delivering anything, ever.

These selections seem based on work ethic and character which are desirable qualities but by themselves meaningless without any decent football output.

The discussion was more around our midfield mix and how he stuck with the same core of experienced players for 4 games and defended his selections, then he makes the change which everyone was calling for and it works.

Buckleys position was you go into a preseason with a strategy and you’ve got to back those players in to see if they can make it work.

A couple of points, it was clearly a bad strategy we wasted all preseason on. Second, it was very obvious early that it was a bad strategy. You shouldn’t wait 4 weeks to make a change when something is clearly not working.

 

[George Kramer]

You dont think Bucks would be a good coach for us in 2025?

I’ve been on the Bucks train for awhile. That discussion had me a little concerned that he’d have a similar mentality. But if you’re asking me Nicks or Buckley in 2025, Buckley by a long way.

 

[George Kramer]

Nankervis available round 1, Sholl picked
Nankervis available round 2, Sholl dropped
Nankervis available round 3, Sholl selected

Care to comment WaynesWorld19

No comment WaynesWorld19?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

The discussion was more around our midfield mix and how he stuck with the same core of experienced players for 4 games and defended his selections, then he makes the change which everyone was calling for and it works.

Buckleys position was you go into a preseason with a strategy and you’ve got to back those players in to see if they can make it work.

A couple of points, it was clearly a bad strategy we wasted all preseason on. Second, it was very obvious early that it was a bad strategy. You shouldn’t wait 4 weeks to make a change when something is clearly not working.

Sticking with your plan is fine, providing it's a good plan

A good plan will work. Form is temporary, class is permanent, so backing in your preferred players is fine.

Nicks unfortunately had a crap plan and is sticking with players who have no class and shouldn't have been in the team to begin with.

Backing in a game plan is fine if it's good.

Backing in players is fine if they're good.

 

[AFC979810]

He’s a Neil Craig MK2 …. never realise you were such a fan of Neil

For the life of me I cannot understand the bashing poor Neil goes through.

The more time goes on - the more you realize this poor bastard was unluckier than Sando.

Imagine taking over a team that was crap in 2004 and being top 2 in 2005 only to lose your captain to stupidity that costs you a home prelim. Then you return bigger and better in 2006.

In 2006 - you finish second on the ladder. However - you lose your #1 goal kicker in Roo (44 goals) for all the finals. You lose your #2 goalscorer - Hentschel (42 goals) for all the finals and your 3rd goal scorer Burton (41 goals) in round 18 and you have to rush him back for the prelim - leaving you with a Matty Bode and Scotty Thompson are your next best goalkickers.

Brutal. Absolutely Brutal. Between Parvo, Suspension and Injury - poor Neil.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Buckley's error was alienating players that he didn't gel with personally

That "posse" the Pies had Didak, Swan, H Shaw etc I forget the others. He moved a few of them on. Players who didn't play / train / prepare / act his way.

Whereas Mick seemed to be able to utilise and form relationships with all types.

I wonder how Buckley views that now?

 

[AFC979810]

Sticking with your plan is fine, providing it's a good plan

A good plan will work. Form is temporary, class is permanent, so backing in your preferred players is fine.

Nicks unfortunately had a crap plan and is sticking with players who have no class and shouldn't have been in the team to begin with.

Backing in a game plan is fine if it's good.

Backing in players is fine if they're good.

I think the big issue here is that the isn't a new coach.

Nicks has had 85+ games with this group and 5 preseasons. If a new coach came in and was unsuccessful for the first 4 rounds I dont think anyone would care - that takes time.

Whats the worry is that after 4 seasons with us - Nicks invented some brand new gameplan that was absolutely terrible.

 

[Scorpus]

Buckley's error was alienating players that he didn't gel with personally

That "posse" the Pies had Didak, Swan, H Shaw etc I forget the others. He moved a few of them on. Players who didn't play / train / prepare / act his way.

Whereas Mick seemed to be able to utilise and form relationships with all types.

I wonder how Buckley views that now?

You'd hope he'd view that as a serious error given he spent six seasons sending Collingwood down the ladder before finally recovering

 

[George Kramer]

Sticking with your plan is fine, providing it's a good plan

A good plan will work. Form is temporary, class is permanent, so backing in your preferred players is fine.

Nicks unfortunately had a crap plan and is sticking with players who have no class and shouldn't have been in the team to begin with.

Backing in a game plan is fine if it's good.

Backing in players is fine if they're good.

Agreed, but Bucks knew it was bad and still thought it was ok for Nicks to stick with it as it was his plan. So if Bucks had a bad plan he’d stick with it because that was the plan even though it obviously sucked

 

[George Kramer]

I think the big issue here is that the isn't a new coach.

Nicks has had 85+ games with this group and 5 preseasons. If a new coach came in and was unsuccessful for the first 4 rounds I dont think anyone would care - that takes time.

Whats the worry is that after 4 seasons with us - Nicks invented some brand new gameplan that was absolutely terrible.

It wasn’t even a new gameplan, he went to a bad gameplan from 2022, which he successfully changed in 2023. It was utter madness to have gone back to it.

 

[AFC979810]

Buckley's error was alienating players that he didn't gel with personally

That "posse" the Pies had Didak, Swan, H Shaw etc I forget the others. He moved a few of them on. Players who didn't play / train / prepare / act his way.

Whereas Mick seemed to be able to utilise and form relationships with all types.

I wonder how Buckley views that now?

That Posse was getting on. The critical error Collingwood made was making the transition from Malthouse to Bucks too early. Should have been done in 2015.

What impresses me about Buckley is that he was able to rebuild the squad.

He inherited Malthouse's squad and finished in the finals in 2012/2013.

Then reworked the squad for 2014/2015/2016/2017.

Then had a red hot crack losing the Grand Final by 4 points in 2018 and a prelim by 6 points in 2019 before falling away in 2020/2021.

Buckley would be the greatest thing to happen to this club since Blight IMO.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

You'd hope he'd view that as a serious error given he spent six seasons sending Collingwood down the ladder before finally recovering

That requires self awareness

 

[AFC979810]

You'd hope he'd view that as a serious error given he spent six seasons sending Collingwood down the ladder before finally recovering

He made a prelim in 12. Finals in 13.

Spent 4 years out of the finals before losing a grand final by 5 points and losing the 19 prelim by under a kick.

This board is way too harsh on near misses.

The difference between Blight being the Messiah and Wallace being the messiah is a 50/50 umpires decision.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Not all positions on the AFL field are equal.

I can’t remember who it was that said an exceptional key forward is always more valuable than an exceptional mid.

Oh now I remember. It was me.

 

[Slippery Pete]

He made a prelim in 12. Finals in 13.

Spent 4 years out of the finals before losing a grand final by 5 points and losing the 19 prelim by under a kick.

This board is way too harsh on near misses.

The difference between Blight being the Messiah and Wallace being the messiah is a 50/50 umpires decision.

Not really. Adelaide was a much better team than that WB side.

People forget how badly Adelaide kicked that day. Shouldn’t have been that close.

The 98 prelim is a much better example of the gulf in talent and coaching between those two teams.

Blight was and is superior to Wallace in all facets.

 

[Scorpus]

He made a prelim in 12. Finals in 13.

Spent 4 years out of the finals before losing a grand final by 5 points and losing the 19 prelim by under a kick.

This board is way too harsh on near misses.

The difference between Blight being the Messiah and Wallace being the messiah is a 50/50 umpires decision.

He took a young grand final winning squad that won 20 games in the H&A season and produced fewer wins each year for 6 seasons

This board would eviscerate a coach that did that.

There were some older players in his team but in 2012 guys like Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Beams, Thomas, Shaw, Cloke, Reid were all about to enter their prime.

Their list was primed for winning flags and continued success. Especially because they ended up with draft success as well with players like Moore, De Goey and Grundy

The list Collingwood had in 2014 when they missed finals under Buckley was very strong. There is no way that list should have only won 11 games. For reference: https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2014/collingwood

The fact he was able to turn it around so quickly between missing the finals with 9 wins and making a grand final is testament to the quality of the list that underperformed with his coaching during that period

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Agreed, but Bucks knew it was bad and still thought it was ok for Nicks to stick with it as it was his plan. So if Bucks had a bad plan he’d stick with it because that was the plan even though it obviously sucked

If a 5th year coach is coming up with a dud plan and backing in dud players, you don't change plans or selection policies

You change coach

There's no rescuing this situation

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I think the big issue here is that the isn't a new coach.

Nicks has had 85+ games with this group and 5 preseasons. If a new coach came in and was unsuccessful for the first 4 rounds I dont think anyone would care - that takes time.

Whats the worry is that after 4 seasons with us - Nicks invented some brand new gameplan that was absolutely terrible.

There was an upwards trend in 2022 and 2023 but what is becoming obvious is that it was largely off the back of recruiting Dawson, then Rankine and Tex rediscovering his best football

Not so much development, coaching or talented young players coming through

Edit - and I should add, being so awful in 2020 that improvement from there was inevitable

 

[jackster83]

There was an upwards trend in 2022 and 2023 but what is becoming obvious is that it was largely off the back of recruiting Dawson, then Rankine and Tex rediscovering his best football

Not so much development, coaching or talented young players coming through

He seems almost incapable of ruling a line through players who are not up to it.

Here we are still wasting games on Sholl, McHenry, Parnell, etc.

Even Crouch we appeared to have moved on from, leaving him in the SANFL for two years before recalling him and now bringing him back into the inner sanctum.

There is just no conviction about him.

Sack and move on.

 

[AFC979810]

Not really. Adelaide was a much better team than that WB side.

People forget how badly Adelaide kicked that day. Shouldn’t have been that close.

No - they finished above us in both 97/98. In 97 - we won one game by 50 points and lost another to them by 43.

Its finals football - better team on the day wins.

We were a much better side than St. Kilda in 2005 and if you replay that game we win 9 out of 10 times.

Sports are sometimes unfair.

The 98 prelim is a much better example of the gulf in talent and coaching between those two teams.

We weren't a much better side than the Bulldogs in Rd 11 of 1998 when they pumped us by 72 points. They finished above us.

Blight was and is superior to Wallace in all facets.

History says so now. If that one umpire decision went against us - its a different story.

The margins are razor thin at this level. Its better to be lucky than good.

 

[AFC979810]

He took a young grand final winning squad that won 20 games in the H&A season and produced fewer wins each year for 6 seasons

This board would eviscerate a coach that did that.

It was an idiotic move to swap from Malthouse to Buckley. Thats on Collingwood.

But how he rebuilt the squad into the 2018/2019 squad is the key piece here.

There were some older players in his team but in 2012 guys like Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Beams, Thomas, Shaw, Cloke, Reid were all about to enter their prime.

Their list was primed for winning flags and continued success. Especially because they ended up with draft success as well with players like Moore, De Goey and Grundy

The list Collingwood had in 2014 when they missed finals under Buckley was very strong. There is no way that list should have only won 11 games. For reference: https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2014/collingwood

The fact he was able to turn it around so quickly between missing the finals with 9 wins and making a grand final is testament to the quality of the list that underperformed with his coaching during that period

It's bloody tough to win flags. And Buckley has been closer than any of our coaches other than Blight.

You keep bringing up the list he inherited. But isn't the pertinent part - what he turned that list into in 2018/2019?

 

[Coopers]

For the life of me I cannot understand the bashing poor Neil goes through.

The more time goes on - the more you realize this poor bastard was unluckier than Sando.

Imagine taking over a team that was crap in 2004 and being top 2 in 2005 only to lose your captain to stupidity that costs you a home prelim. Then you return bigger and better in 2006.

In 2006 - you finish second on the ladder. However - you lose your #1 goal kicker in Roo (44 goals) for all the finals. You lose your #2 goalscorer - Hentschel (42 goals) for all the finals and your 3rd goal scorer Burton (41 goals) in round 18 and you have to rush him back for the prelim - leaving you with a Matty Bode and Scotty Thompson are your next best goalkickers.

Brutal. Absolutely Brutal. Between Parvo, Suspension and Injury - poor Neil.

Also cousins meth's his way to superhuman feats on the football field that the fittest ever player we've ever had (VB) can't keep up with him and your ruckman does a knee in the prelim.

 

[Soggy2112]

Voss 2.0 is better than Voss 1.0
I expect Buckley to be the same

Buckley and Voss are very different.

Voss was put into the role based on his playing rep. He failed, was sacked, then went off and did a long stint as an assistant coach. He had a chance to work on his flaws and prove he was ready for another crack.

Buckley was literally handed the keys to a Ferrari, ****ed it, then had another crack and couldn’t make it, then struggled again. This all happening at probably the most well resourced club with some of the biggest leg ups. Since then he has gone into the media and done no meaningful coaching. It’s worth mentioning that Buckley coached for 10 years, and made finals in 5 of those. In the two years either side of his tenure Malthouse won a flag and made a GF, and McRae made a prelim and won a flag.

 

[Scorpus]

It was an idiotic move to swap from Malthouse to Buckley. Thats on Collingwood.

But how he rebuilt the squad into the 2018/2019 squad is the key piece here.



It's bloody tough to win flags. And Buckley has been closer than any of our coaches other than Blight.

You keep bringing up the list he inherited. But isn't the pertinent part - what he turned that list into in 2018/2019?

Buckley is one of the very few coaches to have inherited a proven winning side. Most coaches get the job when a team is underperforming.

So we have rare insight into what a coach was able to achieve with a great, winning team. And he made that team worse.

You could say that he "rebuilt" the side but why did he need to? It was a winning team. You don't need to rebuild good team.

We also can see what a different coach could do with the same list immediately after Buckley left, which is improve drastically and win a flag.

If Buckley spent most of his time making a proven Collingwood team worse, what would he do with our scrubber list and poor drafting?

He coached Collingwood for long enough that I would put his 2018/19 down as more of an outlier than not.

Of course he may have learned a lot from his time and could be much better the second time around. But if he's the same coach he was at Collingwood, I'm not on board