List Mgmt. McCartin how much more time does he need?

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These discussions, on multiple threads over multiple forums, are absolutely doin' my head in!

I'm probably gonna need to wear a helmet more than Paddy does at this rate ☹️


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thepoyz said:
Bit of a myth, the clubs I know had Paddy @ 1 had absolutely no chance of drafting him. They just thought he was the best player in the draft class.
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Interestingly Danny Frawley pretty much said what Brian speaking said that Paddy is super talented but is soft and a doesn't compete hard enough. He said it can be drilled into a player and said Shanahan was completely uncompetitive in his attitude but learnt it. I got the feeling the club is starting to get a bit frustrated with him.
 

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gringo2011 said:
Interestingly Danny Frawley pretty much said what Brian speaking said that Paddy is super talented but is soft and a doesn't compete hard enough. He said it can be drilled into a player and said Shanahan was completely uncompetitive in his attitude but learnt it. I got the feeling the club is starting to get a bit frustrated with him.
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That has nothing to do with my post?

I imagine they're a bit frustrated with a lot of players. I'd like to see significant improvement in Paddy's tank more than anything, the rest will be ok.
 
"And if we want to be blunt, the Herald Sun have Mark Robinson when they could've had a decent, intelligent, articulate, sober sports journalist".

images
 
Sir Skid said:
About this far into his career most on here were ready to ditch BJ.
Hawkins looked similar to Paddy at this stage.

Relax and enjoy seeing him and JB develop.
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This. Still needs a good season and another pre-season.

Talk about harry hindsighters with talk on Billings and McCartin.

FWIW I preferred Petracca, but now we have Paddy will support him.until he either comes good or is gone.

Same with Billings.
 
Joffaboy said:
This. Still needs a good season and another pre-season.

Talk about harry hindsighters with talk on Billings and McCartin.

FWIW I preferred Petracca, but now we have Paddy will support him.until he either comes good or is gone.

Same with Billings.
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I'm the same but I have no confidence going into games this year and was hoping for a lot more development to have happened. I'm still bullish about them both but until they really show consistent high standard footy they will cause a bit of anxiety.
 
BrianSpeaking said:
Casting observations from afar are fine, but you should do yourself a favour and jump on a plane and watch him live, up close, in a VFL setting.
The bottom line is he started on the bench today and didn't come on until about the ten minute mark.
He looks very overweight and unfit. He does not compete when the ball goes to ground, he needs a good kick up the arse if he wants to be an elite professional footballer.
Let's not sugar coat this, he was dropped after round three, after a full pre season. As far as Petracca goes, he's the most overrated draftee since Jack Watts. He can't hit a target to save his life and is lazy, arrogant and conceited.
Let's hope Paddy get serious and starts eating properly, otherwise he could end up being the biggest pick one bust since Stephen Hooper.
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I wasn't there but I can still see...

Barrels said:
Ok, here's the player by player breakdown... but first a disclaimer; these are just my thoughts, I won't have seen everything, and perfectly happy to be be disagreed with.

...
Paddy McCartin
Marshalled the forwards well and was very vocal in terms of forward structures. You could see he was trying, but the two goals were a big flattering. Devoid of confidence in his hands and kicking. Possibly tries to bring others into the game too much when he would benefit from being a bit more selfish.

You can see the talent, he just needs the belief.
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Ads734 said:
P Mccartin- I though paddy worked really hard today. Did a lot of important team things umpiring didn't help. There was one where he should've had a kick for goal 20 out on an angle but was called high instead. He wasn't marking to well initially but after he took one big mark stepped it up. Patience is needed. We've seen flashes it will come together at some stage and I though he was a better forward then Marshall today FWIW.
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sunny3193 said:
Nothing further to add that you haven't already said except:

Did you notice Wright hurt his left shoulder again in the last quarter?

And this:

Paddy McCartin
Marshalled the forwards well and was very vocal in terms of forward structures.

Very perceptive observation.

As I was standing behind the goals at the Sautner end in the last, I had a great view of the starting forward structure. In line from circle to goal square: Battle, Marshall and McCartin with the flankers playing high.
Paddy orchestrated any change to the structure: sometimes he'd signal Marshall to play long and he would play high, other times he'd play long and Marshall would move higher. Either way he seemed to be making the calls.
And double plus on his being vocal.
None of this I've seen at AFL level.
But then I don't go to games....
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I understand the need to get games into him.

However, with Roo still playing, I reckon we are +1 with both in the team.

I'd be more than happy to have him develop his game at Sandy for half a season.

More likely is that he will be treated like Acres and be in and out depending on how much he follows instructions.

As a key forward, he needs to control the front 6 like Roo does. And frankly that's not easy with Roo, Bruce and Members in the same team.

I don't think we'll see his best until Roo retires. Meanwhile, let him learn his craft at Sandy and play seniors when he's ready.
 
Kildonan said:
I do not agree that we should have picked Petracca. He is undoubtedly a good player, and so is McCartin. We picked Paddy because he was a freak. His reaction times were phenomenal and we needed a KPP with his qualities. He is a natural leader and will
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Great call there Kildonan....and a very wise one too.

It's very understandable that people want Paddy kicking bags right now.......god knows,I've dreamt about that many times.

Pre season 2 full seasons ago....a few of the media "experts" were tipping that we wouldn't win a game in 2015.....that's ONLY 2 full seasons ago....

Given our improved win rate each year since.....the expectation of the team was sky high this season especially with all the media hype(which I personally didn't fully buy into.....there were still too many unknowns for my liking)

The expectation was that we'd burst out of the blocks.....which hasn't quite happened.

One of the few positives for me is the sheer amount of scoring shots that we have had.....which has resulted in way too many behinds being kicked.
The number we had in Perth was the highest by a side there since 2013.

If we can straighten up we'll be fine.

I'm confident Paddy will surprise......along with the team....patience folks!
 
For both Paddy and Billings to have gone so high in their respective drafts there is no doubt on their ability. They were being compared to young men of similar age and ranked accordingly. The next step in translating that into a career against a pool of highly talented, and in most cases more physically mature players, is where both them are struggling.

A lot of top footballers have that ruthless competitive streak which drives their performance week in, week out. I feel that Jack and Paddy need to become mentally stronger if they are to carve out successful careers. They are still young and have time to mature into this mindset, it all depends on how much they really want it to happen as there are no shortcuts.
 
Kildonan said:
I do not agree that we should have picked Petracca. He is undoubtedly a good player, and so is McCartin. We picked Paddy because he was a freak. His reaction times were phenomenal and we needed a KPP with his qualities. He is a natural leader and will captain our club. It is understandable that fans compare players we might have picked with those who we actually picked, but you have to ensure that you are comparing apples to apples. Tracca is a mid/forward - these players usually come to form quite quickly. Paddy is a KPF - these players often don't realise their potential until their 4th seasons - sometimes even later than that. It really means that you need to see more of their respective careers before you can judge who was the better choice for pick #1. I personally feel that Peter Wright could still turn out to be a better pick that Petracca. Reserve judgement on Paddy until a more realistic time has passed to allow a truer assessment of their respective contributions to team performances.
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Peter Wright has struggled this year too.

Would love club to get Jono Brown down at Seaford to go thru some footage with Paddy.
Talking to him about getting on the move which is his strength marking on wings and changing angles of his leads.
rather than standing & wrestling.
Not completely convinced he is completely over the hits either.
Finally would also get Paddy to talk to guys like Michael Klim about increasing his lung capacity with swimming &
diet .
 

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thepoyz said:
Bit of a myth, the clubs I know had Paddy @ 1 had absolutely no chance of drafting him. They just thought he was the best player in the draft class.
Click to expand...

I've seen u mention this a few times now. Iirc u said two interstate clubs plus us had Paddy 1?

There was a 2014 draft poll on afl.com with club names undisclosed & 16 clubs had CP, one club Paddy & one club Heeney wrt who they'd pick at pick 1 in the draft.

I'm not saying what u know or heard is wrong, opinions can change from day to day.
 
Glen Buterol said:
I've seen u mention this a few times now. Iirc u said two interstate clubs plus us had Paddy 1?

There was a 2014 draft poll on afl.com with club names undisclosed & 16 clubs had CP, one club Paddy & one club Heeney wrt who they'd pick at pick 1 in the draft.

I'm not saying what u know or heard is wrong, opinions can change from day to day.
Click to expand...


Us for Paddy, Sydney for Heeney and then the rest for Petracca.
 
Its easy to s**t can him and say his the next Jack Watts but that's far from true kid can't even get out on the park let alone show everyone why he was drafted 1st. He has shown signs he will be a superstar its just about been patient with KPF. Sorry to intrude in saying that but had to have my say.
 
Look, I just want to share an observation from the Sandy game yesterday.

In one of Barrels' comments he shared an observation about Paddy laying a great tackle but then being unfairly pinged by the umpire: free kick going to Essendon.
That happened right in front of me - sitting on the fence Sautner Goal, Beach Road side pocket.
Of course Paddy objected to the decision, umpire ignoring his objections, so Paddy is on the mark shaking his head in disbelief.
No biggie but what happened next was.
The Essendon player takes his kick, Paddy turns to watch it upfield and the guy runs past Paddy, slaps Paddy's left open palm with his right hand. A gesture of comradeship.
They glance at each other and the Essendon player continues to run upfield.
A very small gesture of player solidarity. Well hidden on an AFL oval.
Also a gesture of respect.
I can remember Trout talking about Paddy and arguing why he should be taken rather than Petracca. If I recall, one reason being Trout was sold on his character and that he was the type of player others would flock to, and that a club could be built around.
The unbelievable sporting gesture from an opponent notwithstanding, it would seem Trout was spot on with his character.
I have no reason to believe that Trout was right in this, and wrong on his ability.
 
More on Hawkins comparison
Kildonan said:
Lance Franklin
Code: 
Year Games Goals GA CM
2005   20   21   8  10
=======================
2006   14   31   6   6
2007   22   73  12  28
2008   25  113  18  64
2009   21   67   8  37
2010   18   64   7  32
2011   22   82  16  39
2012   19   69  24  39
2013   21   60  11  26
2014   22   79  20  51
2015   17   47   7  17
2016   26   81  19  42

Josh Kennedy
Code: 
Year Games Goals GA CM
2006    9    5   1   5
2007   13    6   -   7
2008    7    7   4   9
=======================
2009   16   31   9  23
2010   22   41  15  30
2011   23   59  15  42
2012    9   18   1   7
2013   21   60  17  16
2014   20   61  10  19
2015   25   80  18  28
2016   23   82  15  42

Jack Riewoldt
Code: 
Year Games Goals GA CM
2007    8    7   5   6
2008   18   18  15  14
2009   20   32   8  28
=======================
2010   22   78   9  54
2011   22   62  21  41
2012   22   65  20  39
2013   22   58  26  31
2014   23   61  18  28
2015   23   54  22  42
2016   22   48  18  43

Tom Hawkins
Code: 
Year Games Goals GA CM
2007    9   12   6   6
2008   10   13   6  17
2009   24   34  18  31
2010   18   21   9  22
2011   18   27  14  42
=======================
2012   22   62  19  54
2013   22   49  16  35
2014   24   68  17  56
2015   19   46  16  48
2016   23   55  17  58

Kurt Tippett
Code: 
Year Games Goals GA CM
2008   19   17   7  14
=======================
2009   24   55  13  41
2010   22   46  10  44
2011   18   31   3  41
2012   21   39  10  50
2013   12   35   4  22
2014   14   34   5  25
2015   22   44   9  37
=======================
2016   17   17  10  28

I have arbitrarily chosen to mark a key forward as successful once he can regularly produce seasons where he averages 2 goals per match. The lag for a key forward to become a 2 goal a week forward is quite variable. One could generalise that most of these successful key forwards have a 3 year build up to get to that level but the evidence is quite weak. Tom Hawkins took 5 years.
Click to expand...
 
Obviously we would have preferred he'd be tearing games apart already. He isn't and there are a few factors at play there.
How long does he need? As long as it takes, the glimpses he's displayed show that he could be special. If it takes some time, it takes some time.
 
liked how strong richo was on paddy in his presser tonight. Exactly what we need to project for both paddy's confidence and keeping the media off our back.

As richo(?) says, improvement isn't linear, there will be ups and downs. Look at the players that played well for us today. I've got faith in this group's want to improve, paddy's a part of that. In the meantime we have roo, members and bruce. Not so bad, we could have collingwood's forward line :S
 
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