News NGA changes for 2019?

[jackess]

In what way did we get a discount on any of those players on account of them being from WA? We payed the same thing any club would for a player in that position. You can't just arbitrarily decide that we got a discount because it suits your narrative. You need some proof.

McCarthy we got a discount on because he sat out a year. We offered 2 firsts the year before which is nothing like a discount
Kersten was getting delisted.
Bennell has well publicised issues with both off field and injury.
Matera was injury prone and thoroughly inconsistent
Hamling had played 20 games at the time in 4 years

I have no problem with the academy, especially in QLD (I live here, I know what it is like). I do have a problem with any club getting a discount along with priority access. To be fair, at the moment you guys aren't exploiting it, but the Sydney situation is a joke.

Wilson was the best one that I didn't list.

At Brisbane we've seen clearly the discount on players wanting to go home; Docherty, Yeo, Schache, etc.

Sydney got lucky and got the guns before the rules were tightened. The rules the other clubs agreed on.

As it stands now the discount doesn't make a huge difference. You also have to remember that draft order means * all once the draft is completed. Look at Fyfe and where he was taken.

 

[Cleric]

Having Open Top 30 draft you still get migrant and indigenous kids into academy system isn't it .

Sure, if your academies are open to the top 30 as well. You still get Qld Kids into the academy system.

 

[Orange Agent]

But why take away the incentive to develop them? If they’re going to be top 25 players the club deserves priority access same as the northern clubs and Vic clubs.

The talent pool is far richer than what the Northern academies have and these kids grow up with Aussie rules jumpers on. None of the academies you are comparing to have a whole state to work with.

 

[Joao]

Wilson was the best one that I didn't list.

At Brisbane we've seen clearly the discount on players wanting to go home; Docherty, Yeo, Schache, etc.

Sydney got lucky and got the guns before the rules were tightened. The rules the other clubs agreed on.

As it stands now the discount doesn't make a huge difference. You also have to remember that draft order means **** all once the draft is completed. Look at Fyfe and where he was taken.

Again, Wilson put in 7 years at GWS. That is vastly different from Docherty, Yeo or Schache.

Just because the clubs agree doesn't mean I have to.

Where Fyfe was taken means **** all. What a completely irrelevant example. How about we swap you pick 7 for pick 3 this year since it doesn't matter?

Are you seriously stating that Sydney getting multiple top 5 talents for bunching up picks 15+ doesn't make a difference? Go look up the stats on success of draft picks and how much the top 5 ****s all over other picks and get back to me.

 

[jackess]

Again, Wilson put in 7 years at GWS. That is vastly different from Docherty, Yeo or Schache.

Just because the clubs agree doesn't mean I have to.

Where Fyfe was taken means **** all. What a completely irrelevant example. How about we swap you pick 7 for pick 3 this year since it doesn't matter?

Are you seriously stating that Sydney getting multiple top 5 talents for bunching up picks 15+ doesn't make a difference? Go look up the stats on success of draft picks and how much the top 5 ****s all over other picks and get back to me.

Exactly where a player is taken means * all. You said it.

So worrying about a small discount contradicts what you just said.

Under the new rules it makes it a lot more difficult to take so many highly rated kids. If they match Blakey this year it might effect their first round pick for next year.

If Mills went to Brisbane and Blakey went to the Suns through their academies would there be such an issue? Maybe the rules need to be tweaked again but that doesn't mean the academy system should be canned

 

[Joao]

Exactly where a player is taken means **** all. You said it.

So worrying about a small discount contradicts what you just said.

Under the new rules it makes it a lot more difficult to take so many highly rated kids. If they match Blakey this year it might effect their first round pick for next year.

If Mills went to Brisbane and Blakey went to the Suns through their academies would there be such an issue? Maybe the rules need to be tweaked again but that doesn't mean the academy system should be canned

No I said specifically your example is stupid. Luke Hodge went pick 1, Riewoldt 1. Cameron Sutcliffe went 60odd - see a pattern here?

I have an issue with any player rated as highly as Mills, Heeney or potentially Blakey going to ANY club for less than what they are worth. It is bad enough there is an arbitrary points system assigned, the last thing it needs is a discount.

It won't affect them because they just bundle up 3rd rounders to make the difference.

I also literally said

"I have no problem with the academy, especially in QLD (I live here, I know what it is like). I do have a problem with any club getting a discount along with priority access."

The academies are fine. just remove the discount. Priority access to local talent makes 100% sense for the QLD clubs (and NSW to a lesser extent). Getting a sometimes ridiculous advantage when you don't need one (Sydney), doesn't.

 

[jackess]

No I said specifically your example is stupid. Luke Hodge went pick 1, Riewoldt 1. Cameron Sutcliffe went 60odd - see a pattern here?

I have an issue with any player rated as highly as Mills, Heeney or potentially Blakey going to ANY club for less than what they are worth. It is bad enough there is an arbitrary points system assigned, the last thing it needs is a discount.

It won't affect them because they just bundle up 3rd rounders to make the difference.

I also literally said

"I have no problem with the academy, especially in QLD (I live here, I know what it is like). I do have a problem with any club getting a discount along with priority access."

The academies are fine. just remove the discount. Priority access to local talent makes 100% sense for the QLD clubs (and NSW to a lesser extent). Getting a sometimes ridiculous advantage when you don't need one (Sydney), doesn't.

Fyfe went to your club for less than what he's worth.

Already Callum Mills despite being bid on at pick 3 probably isn't worth a top 3 pick if you re-did that draft.

And you can't just bundle up 3rd rounders anymore they closed that loophole and to do that to get Mills Sydney traded back from pick 14 and didn't have a second selection until pick 56.

Other clubs like the Saints and North actually benefited in the from Sydney and Brisbane trading back down the draft for more points.

 

[Taylor]

It's very clear you support one of the big clubs. How has the salary cap helped the Suns attract any decent footballers?

How many struggling clubs have attracted big name free agents?

Besides getting the best player of this generation in his prime you mean? Or is that an inconvenient truth?

 

[Taylor]

Fyfe went to your club for less than what he's worth.

Can we get a refund on Morabito going top five then if we get to look back and judge that way? Every club gets to have a go at drafting a player in the first round if they haven't traded out their pick.

 

[jackess]

Besides getting the best player of this generation in his prime you mean? Or is that an inconvenient truth?

Clearly I mean after then. Their extra salary cap and the ambassador payments certainly helped too. But how have they replaced all the guns they've lost.

 

[jackess]

Can we get a refund on Morabito going top five then if we get to look back and judge that way? Every club gets to have a go at drafting a player in the first round if they haven't traded out their pick.

So if Freo had got a discount for Morabito would that have been bad for the game?

 

[Taylor]

Clearly I mean after then. Their extra salary cap and the ambassador payments certainly helped too. But how have they replaced all the guns they've lost.

They went and poached a player who was offered a four year extension by his former club just last season.

 

[Taylor]

So if Freo had got a discount for Morabito would that have been bad for the game?

It's your shitty example of determining value after the fact that is at question here.

Players aren't an exact science. The point of value is what other teams would have paid for them, draft value is the value they are. That's all it is.

 

[jackess]

It's your shitty example of determining value after the fact that is at question here.

Players aren't an exact science. The point of value is what other teams would have paid for them, draft value is the value they are. That's all it is.

The point I'm making is people are exaggerating the impact on the discount because they overrate the draft.

The draft value is the value they are at 17 and that changes as soon as they start playing.

Brisbane's best academy player was matched in the third round.

 

[Taylor]

The point I'm making is people are exaggerating the impact on the discount because they overrate the draft.

The draft value is the value they are at 17 and that changes as soon as they start playing.

Brisbane's best academy player was matched in the third round.

Brisbane's best academy player is Eric Hipwood, he was taken at pick #15 by using pick #36 and #37.

Would you accept a trade of pick #36 and #37 for your pick #15? That is where the points system is rubbish and the discount only makes it worse.

No club would trade their first round pick for two third round picks. Nobody.

Not unless they weren't going to the draft with them, that actually gave the non academy clubs a chance to get value out of the system, but they got rid of that too.

Before that change the academy clubs could leave the early draft entirely by giving their top picks to other clubs for their later picks, everybody wins.

 

[jackess]

Brisbane's best academy player is Eric Hipwood, he was taken at pick #15 by using pick #36 and #37.

Would you accept a trade of pick #36 and #37 for your pick #15? That is where the points system is rubbish and the discount only makes it worse.

No club would trade their first round pick for two third round picks. Nobody.

Not unless they weren't going to the draft with them, that actually gave the non academy clubs a chance to get value out of the system, but they got rid of that too.

Before that change the academy clubs could leave the early draft entirely by giving their top picks to other clubs for their later picks, everybody wins.

I'd give short odds of Andrews winning more best and fairests (might still win it this year if he gets back soon) and more all australians (would have been close this year) than Hipwood.

Do you know how we got those picks in the third round? We traded picks 17, 21, 26 and James Aish (pick 7 two years earlier) for them, Tom Bell and Ryan Bastinac (both of whom won't get their initial contract with us renewed). We ended up with Hipwood (worth pick 15), Keays who looks likely to be delisted soon, Mathieson and Skinner who are both a long way off being AFL standard.

 

[Taylor]

I'd give short odds of Andrews winning more best and fairests (might still win it this year if he gets back soon) and more all australians (would have been close this year) than Hipwood.

Do you know how we got those picks in the third round? We traded picks 17, 21, 26 and James Aish (pick 7 two years earlier) for them, Tom Bell and Ryan Bastinac (both of whom won't get their initial contract with us renewed). We ended up with Hipwood (worth pick 15), Keays who looks likely to be delisted soon, Mathieson and Skinner who are both a long way off being AFL standard.

It doesn't matter what road you took to the draft, none of it had anything to do with Richmond bidding on Hipwood at #15. Brisbane then got to give up a pair of later picks to get that player. The picks between your #36 and #37 were going to be used to match Hipwood's bid, but you got to sell them to buy mature players before the draft.

 

[jackess]

It doesn't matter what road you took to the draft, none of it had anything to do with Richmond bidding on Hipwood at #15. Brisbane then got to give up a pair of later picks to get that player. The picks between your #36 and #37 were going to be used to match Hipwood's bid, but you got to sell them to buy mature players before the draft.

Everybody knows there's a discount but it's not like pick 15 is just added to the Lions picks. That's the rules every single club agreed on. If Brisbane only had 20 and 38 for the draft it would've cost pick 20. But the trades that I outlined showed

1. How inaccurate draft position is to the quality of player in the long term and the problems Brisbane have with retention (James Aish)
2. That Brisbane despite having the same salary cap as Hawthorn can only attract players like Bastinac and Bell on inflated contracts, and
3. In a couple of years all Brisbane is likely to have to show for having at one stage picks 17, 21 and 26 is Hipwood and maybe a couple of fringe players which shows how difficult it is for Brisbane to build through the draft even with the current academy system

 

[Taylor]

Everybody knows there's a discount but it's not like pick 15 is just added to the Lions picks. That's the rules every single club agreed on. If Brisbane only had 20 and 38 for the draft it would've cost pick 20. But the trades that I outlined showed

1. How inaccurate draft position is to the quality of player in the long term and the problems Brisbane have with retention (James Aish)
2. That Brisbane despite having the same salary cap as Hawthorn can only attract players like Bastinac and Bell on inflated contracts, and
3. In a couple of years all Brisbane is likely to have to show for having at one stage picks 17, 21 and 26 is Hipwood and maybe a couple of fringe players which shows how difficult it is for Brisbane to build through the draft even with the current academy system

Brisbane's draft problems aren't part of the debate.

1. Draft position is the only way other clubs get to rate the value of a pick, they either select them or they don't. That's the only way to grade value at market rate. Development is not a matter for the draft or academy system to factor in. Players can develop well, some don't. Retention is potentially a matter for my next comment.

2. Brisbane has the same salary cap and has to pay it's players as much money as Hawthorn does. If you can't afford to retain your players or attract quality then perhaps the magnifying glass needs to be turned on the administration paying too much to too few because the total dollars paid and the total player number is exactly the same.

3. The draft isn't a guarantee, it's just the best way we have to judge value. That an academy club gets to pick players rated in the top twenty without picks in the top twenty is a massive advantage. The odds of selecting a player above 30 turning out well is much less than pick #15. Your chance of getting a quality player out of both picks is less than pick #15. Again, Brisbane's issues with list management aren't the fault of the system and the academy isn't going to fix them all - but it will eventually lead to a situation where Brisbane will be able to select an entire draft of QLD talent. That's what it will do.

 

[jackess]

Brisbane's draft problems aren't part of the debate.

1. Draft position is the only way other clubs get to rate the value of a pick, they either select them or they don't. That's the only way to grade value at market rate. Development is not a matter for the draft or academy system to factor in. Players can develop well, some don't. Retention is potentially a matter for my next comment.

2. Brisbane has the same salary cap and has to pay it's players as much money as Hawthorn does. If you can't afford to retain your players or attract quality then perhaps the magnifying glass needs to be turned on the administration paying too much to too few because the total dollars paid and the total player number is exactly the same.

3. The draft isn't a guarantee, it's just the best way we have to judge value. That an academy club gets to pick players rated in the top twenty without picks in the top twenty is a massive advantage. The odds of selecting a player above 30 turning out well is much less than pick #15. Your chance of getting a quality player out of both picks is less than pick #15. Again, Brisbane's issues with list management aren't the fault of the system and the academy isn't going to fix them all - but it will eventually lead to a situation where Brisbane will be able to select an entire draft of QLD talent. That's what it will do.

Brisbane's draft problems is part of the debate. It's part of the reason why the academies are required.

1. I'm not arguing against this, I'm arguing against the value of draft picks. Look at Carlton. With all their very early draft picks, their best 2 players were taken in the late first round. Look at what Sydney was able to do without high draft picks up until a couple of years ago.

2. Brisbane offered Kennedy and GWS both better deals last year in terms of salary and picks but despite this he chose to go to Carlton. Just because you can offer more money doesn't mean you get the player.

3. You brought up Hipwood being taken with 2 picks in the 30s. I showed we traded out of the top 20 to get him. Also with Mills, Sydney ended up with their next pick in the 50s. The discount is an advantage but it's not as big an advantage as it was. When Queensland starts producing enough talent that it's possible for Brisbane to have the opportunity to draft locally without the discount then the discount can (and probably will) be removed but remove it now and we go back to very little talent being produced by Queensland.

 

[Taylor]

1. I'm not arguing against this, I'm arguing against the value of draft picks. Look at Carlton. With all their very early draft picks, their best 2 players were taken in the late first round. Look at what Sydney was able to do without high draft picks up until a couple of years ago.

A club's choices at the draft are their own issue. The club making the selection has to be responsible for them. If they are poor, they are poor. It's nobody else's fault.

2. Brisbane offered Kennedy and GWS both better deals last year in terms of salary and picks but despite this he chose to go to Carlton. Just because you can offer more money doesn't mean you get the player.

The details of offers made to players are not made public and are based entirely on speculation. Cameron went to Brisbane ok... maybe he cost too much to offer Kennedy what he wanted.

3. You brought up Hipwood being taken with 2 picks in the 30s. I showed we traded out of the top 20 to get him. Also with Mills, Sydney ended up with their next pick in the 50s. The discount is an advantage but it's not as big an advantage as it was. When Queensland starts producing enough talent that it's possible for Brisbane to have the opportunity to draft locally without the discount then the discount can (and probably will) be removed but remove it now and we go back to very little talent being produced by Queensland.

You spent your early picks attracting mature talent. Brisbane made their choice because they knew they could buy their players and get a handful of late picks to buy their even higher rated top talent.

It doesn't matter to me if the players you bought with the early picks aren't with the club anymore, Brisbane made the choice.

 

[Taylor]

I'm not anti-Academy, I'm against the supporters thinking they aren't sitting on an absolute goldmine for the future. It's a massive advantage and deep down the northern clubs know it because the same system in WA scares them, that's the goal of the academies there, to make it like it is in WA.

 

[jackess]

A club's choices at the draft are their own issue. The club making the selection has to be responsible for them. If they are poor, they are poor. It's nobody else's fault.

The details of offers made to players are not made public and are based entirely on speculation. Cameron went to Brisbane ok... maybe he cost too much to offer Kennedy what he wanted.

You spent your early picks attracting mature talent. Brisbane made their choice because they knew they could buy their players and get a handful of late picks to buy their even higher rated top talent.

It doesn't matter to me if the players you bought with the early picks aren't with the club anymore, Brisbane made the choice.

Like arguing with a brick wall.

Clearly you don't give a s**t about equalisation and want the AFL to go down the same path as the EPL. Suits a rich club in a football state like Freo I guess.

 

[Taylor]

Like arguing with a brick wall.

Clearly you don't give a s**t about equalisation and want the AFL to go down the same path as the EPL. Suits a rich club in a football state like Freo I guess.

Equilisation is about equality of opportunity, not of outcome. Brisbane can be responsible for it's drafting issues.

I've told you my idea for more equality of opportunity. No minimum salary cap spend. Then you can buy the talent you want.

All clubs are free to s**t the bed, but they have to sleep in it after.

 

[jackess]

Equilisation is about equality of opportunity, not of outcome. Brisbane can be responsible for it's drafting issues.

I've told you my idea for more equality of opportunity. No minimum salary cap spend. Then you can buy the talent you want.

All clubs are free to s**t the bed, but they have to sleep in it after.

Brisbane can't afford to run an academy and without it there's no local talent. The AFL has made it really easy to move clubs which has increased the importance of having a significant portion of your list being locals. The drafting system will always be broken while player movement is so easy and there's an uneven amount of talent produced in each state as well as opportunities for third party deals, etc.

But you can't buy the talent you want. Brisbane spent half a decade trying to buy an experienced forward and they couldn't. While every year just about Hawthorn picks up a gun from another team.

The AFL and other clubs agree on this, hence the academy system we currently have. Even Eddie McGuire has stopped whinging about it.