Non-AFL chat thread part 2

[fronkalicious]

Lebrons D is so so shit. I get that he’s trying to rest etc, but seriously, his defensive instincts are just terrible. His athleticism gets him some highlight blocks and steals, but I’m consistently shocked why his God awful D doesn’t get much attention.

I’m not really into the Jordan v Lebron thing, but MJ never, ever mailed it in on D like Lebron has for a long time now.

 

[DelRe]

Lebrons D is so so shit. I get that he’s trying to rest etc, but seriously, his defensive instincts are just terrible. His athleticism gets him some highlight blocks and steals, but I’m consistently shocked why his God awful D doesn’t get much attention.

I’m not really into the Jordan v Lebron thing, but MJ never, ever mailed it in on D like Lebron has for a long time now.

Terrible call.

 

[immortalmike]

He used to be able to play serious D when he wanted to. Pretty much defended all 5 positions when they won the chip.

Not anymore though. Very much resting on that end.

I think that's the conventional wisdom, but the only reason he was ever able to guard 5s is because the center position has been watered down in his era. He wouldn't be able to guard Shaq, **** he'd struggle to guard Greg Ostertag. Flexibility is all well and good but it doesn't make you elite. He was never trash just not ever an all timer on the defensive end even.
Now he's more of a joke than Harden used to be.

Can't speak for his earlier stint in Cleveland as I didn't watch him as closely but he was an animal in Miami. Locked down D-Rose during his MVP year in the Conference Finals. Tony Parker when he was torching the Heat during the Finals was the same.

6x first team all defense. Agree he has lapsed as he has gotten older but at his best he was as good as anyone.

D-Rose averaged 24 points in those finals.
Sure he was a good defender. Just not in the league of the greats though.

 

[DelRe]

Is this thread for serious discussion or just silly banter?

 

[immortalmike]

Lebrons D is so so shit. I get that he’s trying to rest etc, but seriously, his defensive instincts are just terrible. His athleticism gets him some highlight blocks and steals, but I’m consistently shocked why his God awful D doesn’t get much attention.

I’m not really into the Jordan v Lebron thing, but MJ never, ever mailed it in on D like Lebron has for a long time now.

The comparison between the two is over. 6-0 beats 3-6 no matter how you slice it.
Lebron has melted in big moments too many times. And no way am I buying this broken hand nonsense.

 

[DelRe]

The comparison between the two is over. 6-0 beats 3-6 no matter how you slice it.
Lebron has melted in big moments too many times. And no way am I buying this broken hand nonsense.

I guess Bill Russell is the greatest of all time then.

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Now its getting juicy...

I love MJ. He was the reason that I (and millions of others) fell in love with the game. I think that is why to many he is infallible. But he wasn't perfect, he missed more buzzer beaters than he made, he did get swept in the 1st round of the playoffs, he couldn't get past the peak Celtics or Pistons and more importantly for me, he faced far inferior opposition then what todays superstars face.

Dan Majerle? Jeff Hornacek?? Danny Ainge??? Chris Mullin (who was a full blown alcoholic)? Rim protectors like Rik Smits, Rony Seikally, Jeff Foster, Greg Ostertag?

Its the equivalent of LeBron having to guard Adam Morrison or Kirk Hinrich and vice versa. Seriously, watch the Suns v Bulls finals if you get a chance. Dan Majerle's D is laughable.

MJ never had to face anything like Durant, a 7ft scoring machine who is quick and can handle like a PG and score from anywhere on the court. He never had to chase anyone like Klay who never stops moving and cutting and can shoot 35 footers in his sleep. There was nobody with the speed and power of Westbrook or the handle of Kyrie or the shooting of Steph.

Yes Jordan went a perfect 6-0 in the finals but he played 15 seasons, which means he wasnt perfect nine times. Of those teams he faced in the finals not one was anywhere near the Spurs or Warriors that LeBron has had to play Seven!!! Times.

 

[ossie_21]

Just appreciate greatness, compsarisons will go nowhere

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Just appreciate greatness, compsarisons will go nowhere

Says the bloke with the GOAT comparison in his sig

 

[ossie_21]

Says the bloke with the GOAT comparison in his sig

 

[immortalmike]

I guess Bill Russell is the greatest of all time then.

Not in an unprofessional era. He was playing against carpenters. In an 8 team league.
Modern era it's Jordan. Then the rest can be argued.

Now its getting juicy...

I love MJ. He was the reason that I (and millions of others) fell in love with the game. I think that is why to many he is infallible. But he wasn't perfect, he missed more buzzer beaters than he made, he did get swept in the 1st round of the playoffs, he couldn't get past the peak Celtics or Pistons and more importantly for me, he faced far inferior opposition then what todays superstars face.

Dan Majerle? Jeff Hornacek?? Danny Ainge??? Chris Mullin (who was a full blown alcoholic)? Rim protectors like Rik Smits, Rony Seikally, Jeff Foster, Greg Ostertag?

Its the equivalent of LeBron having to guard Adam Morrison or Kirk Hinrich and vice versa. Seriously, watch the Suns v Bulls finals if you get a chance. Dan Majerle's D is laughable.

MJ never had to face anything like Durant, a 7ft scoring machine who is quick and can handle like a PG and score from anywhere on the court. He never had to chase anyone like Klay who never stops moving and cutting and can shoot 35 footers in his sleep. There was nobody with the speed and power of Westbrook or the handle of Kyrie or the shooting of Steph.

Yes Jordan went a perfect 6-0 in the finals but he played 15 seasons, which means he wasnt perfect nine times. Of those teams he faced in the finals not one was anywhere near the Spurs or Warriors that LeBron has had to play Seven!!! Times.

The peak Pistons call is laughable. They were all in their 20s or early 30s. And Jordan swept them as soon as he had one other all star to play with.

Mitch Richmond, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Reggie Miller, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Shaq, Ewing, Duncan, Mutumbo, Robinson, Olajuwan, Webber, Wilkins, Drexler. Might want to check on the competition in the 90s. It was fierce and you could destroy a guy coming through the lane.

What you did was the equivalent of me listing shit players from Lebron's era as indicative of the competition. It's a complete myth.

Maybe Jordan never faced something like Durant but Lebron never faced anything like a prime Shaq, Olajuwan or Ewing. There is nobody with the perimeter defense of a Payton, the grit of a Rodman, the dirtiness of a Lambeer. Klay is a very good player but to compare him to the 2 guards from the 90s is laughable. Mitch Richmond would light him up and he was third tier. Curry is a great shooter but Mark Price (not as great but pretty great) was too, Jordan beat up on his Cavs for fun. Do you honestly think that these guys wouldn't have been just as athletic as the guys now with the benefit of today's training and "medical science"?

The simple fact was that as soon as Jordan had one allstar teammate he never lost in the finals again. Lebron was locked up and lit up by the likes of JJ Barea and Jason Terry in the finals. He's been very smart to stack his teams (Cavs have had the highest player payments in the NBA since he came back) in a weak East but when up against comparable talent his style more often than not loses.

The Jazz and Sonics were the equal of those teams comparatively. Especially considering what MJ had to work with. Jordan had Pippen and role players until he got a 36 year old Rodman. Lebron had a prime Wade, Bosh and allbeit aging Allen, or Love and Kyrie (with some of the best role players money can buy . The Spurs had a great coach and Duncan (an aging one at that), a baby Kawaii, Ginobili and Parker are only what they are because of Pop's system. As evidence of this look at how far off a cliff most of the Spurs cast offs fall once they leave. The Warriors were on the Cavs level talent wise until Durant joined, unlucky for Lebron but then again you live by the sword you die by it.

This is not to say Lebron isn't top 5 of all time. He is easily. But he's not Jordan who is the GOAT and will be until Simmons dethrones him .

 

[Mattdougie]

LeBron just isn’t in the same stratosphere as MJ.

Jordan played in an era where the brutalised him to try and stop him and they still couldn’t.

To suggest he didn’t play the talent MJ is facing is a joke. The reason he didn’t have to face anyone like Durant was because he was the best by a mile so no one could compare.

Better scorer
Better defender
Better clutch

Didn’t need to be a better assist because he did it himself

 

[DelRe]

Not in an unprofessional era. He was playing against carpenters. In an 8 team league.
Modern era it's Jordan. Then the rest can be argued.

So we can rule out Don Bradman as a great cricketer then as well?

I don’t think it’s a clear cut Jordan above everyone else although there’s obviously good arguments he is - the fact that many NBA greats debate it says there’s more to it than titles (30k pts / 8k assists + rebounds which no one else has done in the history of the game; making 8 consecutive finals etc).

Is Brereton better than Carey because of flags or Tuck better than Skilton?

Anyway it’s a side track because my comments in this thread are not so much about who is the greatest (although I find the definitiveness of views on it over the top) it’s suggesting that someone like Lebron is so so bad or god awful at defence. Unlike me to be so blunt but to be honest it’s a stupid opinion.

 

[LittleG]

So we can rule out Don Bradman as a great cricketer then as well?

I don’t think it’s a clear cut Jordan above everyone else although there’s obviously good arguments he is - the fact that many NBA greats debate it says there’s more to it than titles (30k pts / 8k assists + rebounds which no one else has done in the history of the game; making 8 consecutive finals etc).

Is Brereton better than Carey because of flags or Tuck better than Skilton?

Anyway it’s a side track because my comments in this thread are not so much about who is the greatest (although I find the definitiveness of views on it over the top) it’s suggesting that someone like Lebron is so so bad or god awful at defence. Unlike me to be so blunt but to be honest it’s a stupid opinion.

Hey.

Leave Bradman out of it! No other sports person has performed at that level. In an era with bodyline, no helmets & everyone out to get the Don, he still doubled everyone else.

MJ is the greatest BB but in terms of being that much better than the others, no one catches Bradman.

 

[jdz101]

I think that's the conventional wisdom, but the only reason he was ever able to guard 5s is because the center position has been watered down in his era. He wouldn't be able to guard Shaq, **** he'd struggle to guard Greg Ostertag.

Not many legitimate seven foot centers could guard Shaq.

 

[jdz101]

Not in an unprofessional era. He was playing against carpenters. In an 8 team league.
Modern era it's Jordan. Then the rest can be argued.

The only way you can measure greatness in sport in different eras is the level of dominance over said players at the time.

Gretzky isn't suiting up in today's NHL and potting 90 goals in a season. His oilers got absolutely murdered by the Russian national team. Doesn't mean he's not the greatest ever.

It pains me to say as a celtics fan, but Lebron has been just as dominant over his opposition than any other player in the NBA ever. If not more so. As soon as he was given a good supporting cast and a decent coach in Miami, he won championships. His record in finals is moreso Cleveland's failure than his.

 

[immortalmike]

The only way you can measure greatness in sport in different eras is the level of dominance over said players at the time.

Gretzky isn't suiting up in today's NHL and potting 90 goals in a season. His oilers got absolutely murdered by the Russian national team. Doesn't mean he's not the greatest ever.

It pains me to say as a celtics fan, but Lebron has been just as dominant over his opposition than any other player in the NBA ever. If not more so. As soon as he was given a good supporting cast and a decent coach in Miami, he won championships. His record in finals is moreso Cleveland's failure than his.

Don't agree at all with your last paragraph.
Firstly Wade and Bosh with Riley overseeing things is hardly a decent supporting cast it was designed to break the NBA and they still lost to a middling Spurs and an old Mavericks (with only Dirk as their star). Then when back in Cleveland he was given everything he asked for Kyrie was a superstar closer, they traded number one draft pick Wiggins for perennial allstar Kevin Love and signed JR and Thompson to massive contracts at Lebron's behest. His teams were stacked to his liking yet he still continued to fail on the big stage. Frankly I'm sick of the excuses.

He isn't Russell, he isn't Jordan. At best he's Chamberlain. A guy who kept getting there but struggled to win. And very few call him the GOAT.

 

[immortalmike]

Not many legitimate seven foot centers could guard Shaq.

Rodman was 6 '9 and could.

 

[jdz101]

Rodman was 6 '9 and could.

One guy who defended Shaq in spots. Shaq still averaged pretty amazing numbers in those series'.

A guy who's sole job it was to defend and rebound should not be equated to LeBron James' defense either.

Don't agree at all with your last paragraph.
Firstly Wade and Bosh with Riley overseeing things is hardly a decent supporting cast it was designed to break the NBA and they still lost to a middling Spurs and an old Mavericks (with only Dirk as their star). Then when back in Cleveland he was given everything he asked for Kyrie was a superstar closer, they traded number one draft pick Wiggins for perennial allstar Kevin Love and signed JR and Thompson to massive contracts at Lebron's behest. His teams were stacked to his liking yet he still continued to fail on the big stage. Frankly I'm sick of the excuses.

He isn't Russell, he isn't Jordan. At best he's Chamberlain. A guy who kept getting there but struggled to win.

Jordan would have "failed on the big stage" too if he continually had to come up against a 73 win team who THEN added one of the better scorers of this generation in Durant. This GSW team is the most lopsided distribution of NBA talent in history, and it's not even close.

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Not in an unprofessional era. He was playing against carpenters. In an 8 team league.
Modern era it's Jordan. Then the rest can be argued.


The peak Pistons call is laughable. They were all in their 20s or early 30s. And Jordan swept them as soon as he had one other all star to play with.

Mitch Richmond, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Reggie Miller, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Shaq, Ewing, Duncan, Mutumbo, Robinson, Olajuwan, Webber, Wilkins, Drexler. Might want to check on the competition in the 90s. It was fierce and you could destroy a guy coming through the lane.

What you did was the equivalent of me listing shit players from Lebron's era as indicative of the competition. It's a complete myth.

Maybe Jordan never faced something like Durant but Lebron never faced anything like a prime Shaq, Olajuwan or Ewing. There is nobody with the perimeter defense of a Payton, the grit of a Rodman, the dirtiness of a Lambeer. Klay is a very good player but to compare him to the 2 guards from the 90s is laughable. Mitch Richmond would light him up and he was third tier. Curry is a great shooter but Mark Price (not as great but pretty great) was too, Jordan beat up on his Cavs for fun. Do you honestly think that these guys wouldn't have been just as athletic as the guys now with the benefit of today's training and "medical science"?

The simple fact was that as soon as Jordan had one allstar teammate he never lost in the finals again. Lebron was locked up and lit up by the likes of JJ Barea and Jason Terry in the finals. He's been very smart to stack his teams (Cavs have had the highest player payments in the NBA since he came back) in a weak East but when up against comparable talent his style more often than not loses.

The Jazz and Sonics were the equal of those teams comparatively. Especially considering what MJ had to work with. Jordan had Pippen and role players until he got a 36 year old Rodman. Lebron had a prime Wade, Bosh and allbeit aging Allen, or Love and Kyrie (with some of the best role players money can buy . The Spurs had a great coach and Duncan (an aging one at that), a baby Kawaii, Ginobili and Parker are only what they are because of Pop's system. As evidence of this look at how far off a cliff most of the Spurs cast offs fall once they leave. The Warriors were on the Cavs level talent wise until Durant joined, unlucky for Lebron but then again you live by the sword you die by it.

This is not to say Lebron isn't top 5 of all time. He is easily. But he's not Jordan who is the GOAT and will be until Simmons dethrones him .

I'll cut to the chase.

"it is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American." - Larry Bird



Look at that picture above. This squad won three Championships in the 80s and swept MJ in the first round.

There are three legitimate white American starters in the NBA;
Gordon Hayward
Kevin Love
JJ Redick

The Utah Jazz team that won 126 games over the two years that they faced the Bulls in the Finals had three white starters on their own!

Larry Bird used to chew tobacco during games and was a heavy drinker. Chris Mullin was a full blown alcoholic. These guys were perennial all stars and Olympians!

I agree that MJ would've succeeded in todays game (though imho not to the same extent) but I disagree about the competition faced.

Steve Kerr said after their recent win that having played with and against MJ and coaching against LeBron that they were easily the two best players he'd ever seen and that where you rank them is subjective. For me, the league was still too white in the 80s and 90s and thats what gives LeBron a slight edge.

I'm with you on Ben Simmons though. He develops a reliable jumper and the league is his.

 

[immortalmike]

One guy who defended Shaq in spots. Shaq still averaged pretty amazing numbers in those series'.

A guy who's sole job it was to defend and rebound should not be equated to LeBron James' defense either.



Jordan would have "failed on the big stage" too if he continually had to come up against a 73 win team who THEN added one of the better scorers of this generation in Durant. This GSW team is the most lopsided distribution of NBA talent in history, and it's not even close.

Jordan was the 70 win team. That then won the chip.
Ignoring the Durant years. Lebron is still a failure on the big stage 3-4. Add being swept in the finals and 4-1 and there's no argument. A prime Jordan would've at least made it competitive.

We are talking mount Rushmore all timers here. Everything counts. Jordan never quit on his teams, Jordan was never swept in his prime. Jordan never even allowed a game 7 in the finals. Lebron was beaten by a 5'11 Barea, lit up by a >30 Jason Terry in the finals! The Spurs he lost to had a 37 year old Duncan as an anchor with a 22 year old shutting him down. And I could go on.

I'll cut to the chase.

"it is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American." - Larry Bird

View attachment 510986

Look at that picture above. This squad won three Championships in the 80s and swept MJ in the first round.

There are three legitimate white American starters in the NBA;
Gordon Hayward
Kevin Love
JJ Redick

The Utah Jazz team that won 126 games over the two years that they faced the Bulls in the Finals had three white starters on their own!

Larry Bird used to chew tobacco during games and was a heavy drinker. Chris Mullin was a full blown alcoholic. These guys were perennial all stars and Olympians!

I agree that MJ would've succeeded in todays game (though imho not to the same extent) but I disagree about the competition faced.

Steve Kerr said after their recent win that having played with and against MJ and coaching against LeBron that they were easily the two best players he'd ever seen and that where you rank them is subjective. For me, the league was still too white in the 80s and 90s and thats what gives LeBron a slight edge.

I'm with you on Ben Simmons though. He develops a reliable jumper and the league is his.

Could not disagree more. Basketball is a skill game. Harden is proof enough of that.
Jordan used to go out partying until 4 or 5 am. It was a different time. The level of competition was a great as it's ever been. Have a look at the scrub teams that make the playoffs in the East up until even the 4th or 5th seed as compared to the 8th seeds in the 90s.

Simmons with a jumper will be scary.

 

[jdz101]

.

Simmons with a jumper will be scary.

Simmons did not make a single shot outside of 4 feet in the Boston series. Assuming that his shot is going to suddenly appear from being non-existent is massive. For every one case of that happening in the NBA, there are 10 when it doesn't.

 

[fronkalicious]

Saw DMA’s live at the enmore over the weekend. Amazing aussie band. Go see em if you can.

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Jordan was the 70 win team. That then won the chip.
Ignoring the Durant years. Lebron is still a failure on the big stage 3-4. Add being swept in the finals and 4-1 and there's no argument. A prime Jordan would've at least made it competitive.

We are talking mount Rushmore all timers here. Everything counts. Jordan never quit on his teams, Jordan was never swept in his prime. Jordan never even allowed a game 7 in the finals. Lebron was beaten by a 5'11 Barea, lit up by a >30 Jason Terry in the finals! The Spurs he lost to had a 37 year old Duncan as an anchor with a 22 year old shutting him down. And I could go on.


Could not disagree more. Basketball is a skill game. Harden is proof enough of that.
Jordan used to go out partying until 4 or 5 am. It was a different time. The level of competition was a great as it's ever been. Have a look at the scrub teams that make the playoffs in the East up until even the 4th or 5th seed as compared to the 8th seeds in the 90s.

Simmons with a jumper will be scary.

Hey, Carpenters in the 60s were skilled too...

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Why is there a need to slag one off when comparing players?
Both are great, some think it is close, some thing Jodan is better, a few thing LeBron is better.