Outsider View on WCE drafting 2014

[ROYAL EAGLE]

Have started this thread and asked Knightmare, Snoop, Skippos and Chris25
to give there views on WCE drating.

Thought it would be nice to have some outsiders views.

They will hopefully give there views over next few days.

 

[Knightmare]

On how WCE drafted.

Duggan at 11 is a solid enough get. Highly skilled mid with excellent footskills and is a multi-positional player. Really high character guy and the thoughts are that he will get the most out of his game which is what you want to hear with your early picks. He has a late year birthday so he probably isn't an immediate player but has some further scope to improve. The major knock is his pace and he doesn't test quick but you don't really notice a severe lack of pace in game so I don't think that will really be a major factor for him that will necessarily hold him back from being a long term player.

Lamb is a reasonably unique running tall and is a guy where you really have to take the good with the bad. He does at times some freakish things for a tall and has excellent endurance and a few tricks with his ability at ground level and he is willing to take on the game. He also has some versatility so there are some bits there that are attractive. But the bad is he can badly lack intensity at the contest as a guy who will only ever skirt around the edges, at times he can find smart positions at the back of packs and get it fed out to him but he is not someone who really ever goes in and wins the ball. Additionally his ability defensively, particularly when used in the back half is poor. He just doesn't seem to have the awareness of where to be and seems most often than not lost. Coming into the year some touted him as a top 5, perhaps top 10 prospect but he divides opinion with some still seeing him a first round prospect and others like myself not being super high on him. But if there was a situation that is suitable I like him on Subi or whatever it is called this week as a ground that probably suits his play more as a running type who can have more space to play there.

Jackson Nelson is a skilled type with the ability to play through the midfield or off a back flank. He had a terrific underage year and is another coming into this year where some may have considered him a potential first round choice. He is another guy who isn't quick and doesn't test quick but in most other areas of the game he is capable. I am also critical of Nelson in the sense that he hasn't really stepped his game up this year from last year, but in saying that I believe he was playing injured over the second half of the season so that if the case would have played a part in it.

Cavka late draft I like as a value pick. Terrific endurance runner and improved late season having a strong finals series. Again not super quick and not super skilled either. But runs all day and runs guys off their feet just with the sheer distance he covers per game and he can really find the footy. He has excellent positional versatility as a guy who can play on the ball, outside, forward, in a negating role and do any of those things well. Through the finals he had some big disposal, big scoreboard impact games as a rotational mid/fwd so there is something there and late draft is well worth a shot.

Then Waterman is a big midfielder and another case of highly rated coming into the year but probably hasn't come on as expected or taken that next step. His scoreboard impact has halved this year with only slightly better numbers overall and he has only played at Colts level again this year which is disappointing for me given my optimism of him coming into the season after a big finals series last year where he looked to really break out.

--

As for the rookies. Many of you are probably fairly aware of Kane Lucas. The basic summary of his game is that he is a productive mid and an above average athlete but with below average footskills so that is something you'd be living with. But he can provide some depth and perhaps goes slightly better in a new situation.

Corey Adamson is a baseball convert. Can't say I know anything about him but as an alternative pathways rookie a may as well pick.

Similarly with Paddy Brophy as an Irish recruit I'm not familiar with him either and similarly it's another why not kind of pick.

 

[Falco]

"Subi or whatever it is called this week" - sad but true

If you had to give us a rating out of 10 Knightmare what would you give us?

 

[dajesmac]

Cheers for the input KM.

 

[Knightmare]

"Subi or whatever it is called this week" - sad but true

If you had to give us a rating out of 10 Knightmare what would you give us?

Maybe a 4. Maybe a 5. Middle of the road or slightly below is about what I'd say. So 4.5 for those who want a more precise rating.

I would have liked some trade/free agent activity but being out West as we've seen with Fremantle's failed free agent attempts I get that can be difficult so I won't be too harsh on WCE for that as I might on other teams.

Additionally I would have liked some more pace to have been added which is something that wasn't for my liking addressed to the level I would hope - though with next year a good draft for mids/outside types perhaps WCE have a vision to filling those needs then.

Duggan for me is the only guy I look at any say "certain AFL footballer." He wasn't my best available and I rated Duggan closer to 20 but with a pretty even top 20 anyone from there would have been fine so I still feel it is a pretty good selection.

Cavka is excellent value and I rated him a top 30 prospect so getting him late is a good value selection and he is someone I feel has a genuine chance of making the grade.

Lamb I rated in my late 30s in my power rankings in my "best of the rest" group as someone who could make it but I'm not betting on it.

Then Nelson I rated in the 60s which isn't so far off where he was selected either.

Kane Lucas as a rookie is another case of he is fine. Not an inspiring selection but as a rookie not terrible either as someone who can provide depth which is good enough if not liking the other options there and not seeing anyone else who can develop.

 

[Falco]

Maybe a 4. Maybe a 5. Middle of the road or slightly below is about what I'd say. So 4.5 for those who want a more precise rating.

I would have liked some trade/free agent activity but being out West as we've seen with Fremantle's failed free agent attempts I get that can be difficult so I won't be too harsh on WCE for that as I might on other teams.

Additionally I would have liked some more pace to have been added which is something that wasn't for my liking addressed to the level I would hope - though with next year a good draft for mids/outside types perhaps WCE have a vision to filling those needs then.

Duggan for me is the only guy I look at any say "certain AFL footballer." He wasn't my best available and I rated Duggan closer to 20 but with a pretty even top 20 anyone from there would have been fine so I still feel it is a pretty good selection.

Cavka is excellent value and I rated him a top 30 prospect so getting him late is a good value selection and he is someone I feel has a genuine chance of making the grade.

Lamb I rated in my late 30s in my power rankings in my "best of the rest" group as someone who could make it but I'm not betting on it.

Then Nelson I rated in the 60s which isn't so far off where he was selected either.

Kane Lucas as a rookie is another case of he is fine. Not an inspiring selection but as a rookie not terrible either as someone who can provide depth which is good enough if not liking the other options there and not seeing anyone else who can develop.

Thanks for your thoughts KM. A lot us thought that Laverde, Menadue and Markov may have been picked up in to try to fix our 'need for speed'. Obviously Cockatoo was picked up by Geelong so he wasnt an option. I guess the success of this draft won't really be kown for a few years. Who do you rate as being the big winner this year?

 

[Masto]

Maybe a 4. Maybe a 5. Middle of the road or slightly below is about what I'd say. So 4.5 for those who want a more precise rating.

I would have liked some trade/free agent activity but being out West as we've seen with Fremantle's failed free agent attempts I get that can be difficult so I won't be too harsh on WCE for that as I might on other teams.

Additionally I would have liked some more pace to have been added which is something that wasn't for my liking addressed to the level I would hope - though with next year a good draft for mids/outside types perhaps WCE have a vision to filling those needs then.

Duggan for me is the only guy I look at any say "certain AFL footballer." He wasn't my best available and I rated Duggan closer to 20 but with a pretty even top 20 anyone from there would have been fine so I still feel it is a pretty good selection.

Cavka is excellent value and I rated him a top 30 prospect so getting him late is a good value selection and he is someone I feel has a genuine chance of making the grade.

Lamb I rated in my late 30s in my power rankings in my "best of the rest" group as someone who could make it but I'm not betting on it.

Then Nelson I rated in the 60s which isn't so far off where he was selected either.

Kane Lucas as a rookie is another case of he is fine. Not an inspiring selection but as a rookie not terrible either as someone who can provide depth which is good enough if not liking the other options there and not seeing anyone else who can develop.

I think that's fair.

 

[Knightmare]

Thanks for your thoughts KM. A lot us thought that Laverde, Menadue and Markov may have been picked up in to try to fix our 'need for speed'. Obviously Cockatoo was picked up by Geelong so he wasnt an option. I guess the success of this draft won't really be kown for a few years. Who do you rate as being the big winner this year?

Laverde, Menadue and Markov would have all made sense from a needs perspective.
Weller and Jarrod Garlett could have been other good alternatives at 11 if looking purely at needs.
Will Fordham as a rookie as a tall outside mid with a good skillset and some running ability may have been another example of a guy to look at as a list fit.

With the WCE picks I personally would have taken Lever, Blakely, Gore and R.McKenzie just from a value standpoint. Then as a rookie Bampton. They're the guys discounting needs based on my power rankings that I would have taken. Similarly like West Coast's eventual draft it doesn't fill the pace need but through the midfield and the key position posts anyway they would be some in my view interesting additions.
But generally I'm of the view you fill needs through trade week/free agency and take the best guys there through the draft.

I think that's fair.

It's really just all going to be based on my power rankings and whether the picks fill list needs in any way so that 4/5 of 10 should roughly reflect that.

It's a draft where you've got at least one player to go forward with long term, perhaps more depending on which way some of the other guys go.

It's not going to be a gamechanger, few drafts are. But it's not a poor draft either for WCE.

 

[Masto]

Laverde, Menadue and Markov would have all made sense from a needs perspective.
Weller and Jarrod Garlett could have been other good alternatives at 11 if looking purely at needs.
Will Fordham as a rookie as a tall outside mid with a good skillset and some running ability may have been another example of a guy to look at as a list fit.

With the WCE picks I personally would have taken Lever, Blakely, Gore and R.McKenzie just from a value standpoint. Then as a rookie Bampton. They're the guys discounting needs based on my power rankings that I would have taken. Similarly like West Coast's eventual draft it doesn't fill the pace need but through the midfield and the key position posts anyway they would be some in my view interesting additions.
But generally I'm of the view you fill needs through trade week/free agency and take the best guys there through the draft.

It's really just all going to be based on my power rankings and whether the picks fill list needs in any way so that 4/5 of 10 should roughly reflect that.

It's a draft where you've got at least one player to go forward with long term, perhaps more depending on which way some of the other guys go.

It's not going to be a gamechanger, few drafts are. But it's not a poor draft either for WCE.

I don't have any problem with your grade - not that such grades mean anything. It was a very even draft and WCE should have done more to address their deficiencies: speed. Lever might be value but is of no need to WCE. Gore, McKenzie and Bampton I just don't rate and they also don't fullfill needs so it seems strange to me you would mention their names. Blakely could really embarrass our recruiting team but we wouldn't be the only ones. Most teams passed on him 2-3 times.

 

[Chris_6678]

Blakely i just can not see a place in a team where we have Waterman and Sheed playing the same position and i see Blakey having a lot less versatility than either Waterman or Sheed. Ditto for Gore.

Lever would be handy for the future but where is he going to play when we have JK, Brown, Darling, Mcgovern and Emac entering their prime? Being from interstate i can not see him wanting to sit in the 2's waiting for a gig. We also have Sinclair, Barras & Mcinnes waiting in the wings. Ditto for McKenzie

Do not know anything regarding Bampton.

There must have been a reason Lavedere slide so far so i am not fussed we didn't go down that route.

 

[Knightmare]

Blakely I project as an excellent better pro. He is still growing and will all thing said and done be in the 190s.

His inside game is so advanced and perhaps the best or if not then very close to the best in this draft. Then in traffic he moves so well. Excellent skillset for a tall inside mid.

He projects as something like Mundy as that taller mid. If need-be he could play off a back flank and go fine there, but his value is through the midfield with such an advanced and excellent inside game for a still growing and still improving tall mid.

I can't help but think Blakely's upside has been in clubland been greatly underrated.


But as with a junior follow we're all going to rate talent differently and those guys I listed above are more the guys I am bullish about and see as being underrated in clubland. Being so early it's just a case of wait and see what happens.

 

[Snoop Dog]

ROYAL EAGLE asked me to drop in and give a view on how i thought Eagles drafted. I suspect he did that because;

1. I do see a fair bit of junior and state footy
2. He bloody well knows you blokes made out like bandits.

Seriously have said to a couple people i know who watch a fair bit as well that was my view and whilst some reckon Suns or Dees did equally we all agreed WCE were well in that discussion.

Duggan

My personal view is that Duggan is probably one of the saftest kids to draft out of the pool (as was Weller) and you just know the professionalism and scope this kid has is huge. Watched a lot of him and never seen him play poorly. I think he will give you things you were probably looking for in Wellingham that has come just yet. I think those things are transition run and skill from HB and Wing. Personally if Cockatoo was there I would have taken him as he gave you some x factor and surely Laverde would have been in the discussion.


Lamb

In my mock and in a couple of discussions I wrote that I thought he was top 5-7 on talent. He tested off the charts and knowing a bit about his history yeah he had some moments as a kid but thats been well and truly settled. The issue for him was more consistency and I subscribe to the view the kid had probably 6 coaches this year and that has to be hard for some kids and I think Tom was one. At his best he changes games in a way Goddard can. He can play anywhere and I think you ultimately got the x factor you wanted. He would have been at Essendon if Laverde didn't fall.....you can bank that!


Nelson

He was another that I thought was severely under rated by those on the BF Board. He ticks a lot of boxes and I know one club if had a later pick would have taken him a lot earlier. He can do anything this kid and I think maybe people under rate bc at champs he played deep back and was only so-so. His best spot for me is HB and middle. He is very good around the stoppages has nice poise and a lovely ball user. He was a good get for mine.


Cavka

Well I know Collingwood wanted him but deferred to getting a pure midfielder instead. I have watched a lot of him and was really disappointed Pies didn't take him. He runs all day as you would know, he had the best TAC finals campaign of anyone, he can play fwd and wing and his ball use is good. There is a knock on speed and ball winning. The former is fair but the latter is crap. Lot of people liken him to Stanton but I liken him to Zaharakis.

Waterman

I think there are guys who are just bloody good footballers who yeah sure don't have a lot of pace but they win footy and get you going your way. Jordy Lewis and Luke Ball aren't quick footballers but geez they are smart footballers. I think Waterman was a bargain at where you got him.

Lucas

Look I have to say I was happy for him bc it clearly meant a lot to get cut but to be fair I was surprised he was. I genuinely have seen him play few good games and he has all the tools to do it. He reminds me a bit of a poor mans Wellingham. Wellers was good for us and think he will be for you. Lucas plays like Wellers but had nowhere near the results.

Not sure about the last fella you selected.

 

[Keys]

Really appreciate an unbiased perspective KM particularly from someone who has a far better idea on all of the draftees than I ever will. That said a rating of 4.5/10 to my mind is harsh as it basically rates it as a fail

I think that you've over emphasized the lack of leg speed from the draft as whilst none if the players are express, I don't think that they could be fairly categorized as slow either. Going into this draft we had a stated aim of improving our midfield and that's what our recruiters have based their selections on with an emphasis on disposal and endurance rather than speed which wasn't an area the club was as concerned with compared with opinions of others outside the club (rightly or wongly)

The success or otherwise of this draft will probably hinge on the success or otherwise of lamb - he was a risk and if he can overcome/improve his weaknesses then with the more assured success of Duggan and to a lesser extent waterman this become a very solid draft for us. If Nelson and/or cavka develop beyond what their draft position would indicate then that becomes a bonus

Anyway, my glasses are likely more rose colored than yours so it's good to read a less bullish point of view

 

[nameless]

Thanks for the feedback from some of the experts - good to hear an honest assessment.

On the pace debate I find that Simpson coming from Hawks probably saw the real value in players like Sewell, Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Burgoyne etc.
All those lads you'd have 3-4 strengths listed before speed.

The core of your midfield needs to be highly talented, strong bodies who can feed those 3-4 genuinely quick player eg. Cyril, Smith Hill.

So I'm ok with the focus being more on mids with other strengths rather than speed.

 

[Knightmare]

Really appreciate an unbiased perspective KM particularly from someone who has a far better idea on all of the draftees than I ever will. That said a rating of 4.5/10 to my mind is harsh as it basically rates it as a fail

I think that you've over emphasized the lack of leg speed from the draft as whilst none if the players are express, I don't think that they could be fairly categorized as slow either. Going into this draft we had a stated aim of improving our midfield and that's what our recruiters have based their selections on with an emphasis on disposal and endurance rather than speed which wasn't an area the club was as concerned with compared with opinions of others outside the club (rightly or wongly)

The success or otherwise of this draft will probably hinge on the success or otherwise of lamb - he was a risk and if he can overcome/improve his weaknesses then with the more assured success of Duggan and to a lesser extent waterman this become a very solid draft for us. If Nelson and/or cavka develop beyond what their draft position would indicate then that becomes a bonus

Anyway, my glasses are likely more rose colored than yours so it's good to read a less bullish point of view

Treat 4.5 as middle of the road with 5/10 that median point.

To put it in perspective I'd be giving Carlton a 1/10 this offseason if that makes you feel better - due to the disparity between who they picked and my ratings of the guys they picked based on my power rankings.

I haven't ranked every club but 11/18 roughly without going through them all.

For those school kids here if B is the average in the class perhaps a C+ grade.

 

[paran]

KM, snoop, thanks for the input/feedback and thanks RE for organising - awesome effort.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Like most everyone else - I choose to read the favourable comments, ignore the negative comments and take a blissfully optimistic view that they will all project to be All Australian players.

#2015premiers

 

[BartBart]

"Subi or whatever it is called this week" - sad but true
...

Although Subi Oval shouldn't really be used when discussing how well a new recruit will do in WA as its days are numbered.

But good to hear non-WCE (and non-trolling) comments. I wonder if our main picks would have been quite different if we didn't already have Waterman in the bank.

It is tough to rate a team's picks until a few years have passed, so under-rating it until then is probably apt.

 

[Johnno22]

C + what the ? Very harsh

Don't believe that at all .

I believe that this is another example of someone over rating leg speed.

I am of the opinion that ball movement and speed of ball movement is the most important ingredient.
Meaning that good thinking footballers who move the ball quickly and find and create space are the essence of a successful team.

I can't remember Simpson ever saying that we lack speed. He did allude to the fact that our ball movement was lacking and that our midfielders lacked size and strength.

Hawthorn for years recruited and put their game plan in the hands of players with skill and footy nous and it was once the a precise plan for quick ball movement was in place that they went for some outside run as a cherry on top.

Fast outside runners compliment the work of the engine room and the engine room needs skilled, smart players.

 

[Suma Magic]

I think it's a fair enough rating. To get a great rating I think we need to pick up some awesome outside pace (as best available), which we didn't.

 

[eagles rule]

^^^. Johnno I deleted so as not to discourage different expert views .

 

[paran]

I believe that this is another example of someone over rating leg speed.

I am of the opinion that ball movement and speed of ball movement is the most important ingredient.
Meaning that good thinking footballers who move the ball quickly and find and create space are the essence of a successful team.

I can't remember Simpson ever saying that we lack speed. He did allude to the fact that our ball movement was lacking and that our midfielders lacked size and strength.

Hawthorn for years recruited and put their game plan in the hands of players with skill and footy nous and it was once the a precise plan for quick ball movement was in place that they went for some outside run as a cherry on top.

Fast outside runners compliment the work of the engine room and the engine room needs skilled, smart players.

As long as they don't get burned on the spread (ala Priddis), enough speed is required for this not to happen.

 

[Masto]

I can't remember Simpson ever saying that we lack speed. He did allude to the fact that our ball movement was lacking and that our midfielders lacked size and strength.

Doesn't mean we don't. Over the last few weeks i've been watching some of our games from 2014. When we didn't play 3 ruckmen we looked okay and when Cox and Glass were out of the team later in the year we looked a lot quicker. I think as young talent continues to migrate into the team we will naturally look quicker.

 

[Keys]

Doesn't mean we don't. Over the last few weeks i've been watching some of our games from 2014. When we didn't play 3 ruckmen we looked okay and when Cox and Glass were out of the team later in the year we looked a lot quicker. I think as young talent continues to migrate into the team we will naturally look quicker.

Clean ball movement also gives the impression that sides are quicker and I think at stages towards the end of the season that certainly applied to us

 

[Johnno22]

Doesn't mean we don't. Over the last few weeks i've been watching some of our games from 2014. When we didn't play 3 ruckmen we looked okay and when Cox and Glass were out of the team later in the year we looked a lot quicker. I think as young talent continues to migrate into the team we will naturally look quicker.

Exactly, earlier in the season we struggled to move the ball through the zone and looked pathetically slow but later when players understood the game plan and moved the ball quicker we looked a different team.

This also contributed to the fact that our forwards could find some space to run into or compete one on one rather that have six extra opponents to contend with.

Players like Gaff, Shuey and Masten all looked to grow a leg and impact games.