Autopsy Positives and Negatives - Round 7 vs Dockers

[Biggie]

For those who may have forgotten - stickied to the top of every page for your convenience.

 

[Dark Sharks]

I don't want to keep banging on about being at the game, but watching live you could see the switch kicks worked amazingly well for us.

We used the switch 100x better than Fremantle did and you could see it really opened the game up for us.

Might be different watching on TV, but not once did i think at the game that we were over possessing the ball in the back half.


APART FROM this one time when Oscar Allen beat his opponent and had a clear path to run inside 50 and either have a shot or deliver to JK or Darling..

And he turned directly back towards the opposition goal and went backwards into the corridor or something stupid.

It could've been one of the most exciting moments of the game, I was already up out of my seat, and due to coaching/structures/gameplan we totally killed it.

I need to watch the game and see if it was as bad as it looked, because i was filthy

 

[FreeTK]

I don't want to keep banging on about being at the game, but watching live you could see the switch kicks worked amazingly well for us.

We used the switch 100x better than Fremantle did and you could see it really opened the game up for us.

Might be different watching on TV, but not once did i think at the game that we were over possessing the ball in the back half.


APART FROM this one time when Oscar Allen beat his opponent and had a clear path to run inside 50 and either have a shot or deliver to JK or Darling..

And he turned directly back towards the opposition goal and went backwards into the corridor or something stupid.

It could've been one of the most exciting moments of the game, I was already up out of my seat, and due to coaching/structures/gameplan we totally killed it.

I need to watch the game and see if it was as bad as it looked, because i was filthy

I know exactly the moment you are thinking about.

It looked like Oscar thought someone was behind him and he tried to turn and then realised no one was there.

It was quite odd.

 

[Jiggyman]

How about a video of his clearing kick from the centre circle, where I think waterman marked and goal.

looked a 60 m kick from a quick outside of his boot.

Ryan got it to Waterman, who goaled.

 

[Gwaihir]

Rather we just had no song. Just fart noises

On SM-G925I using BigFooty.com mobile app

Eagle Rock represents... unofficially, in the same way Cuz was our spiritual leader in 06.

 

[Gwaihir]

Booing sounded loud on the TV and the commentators loved it. Brought it up every chance they could. Which was quite often because Gaff got a lot of it

I didn't mind it at all, and it disappeared after three quarter time for some reason

What I do mind is that our fans will be torn a new one when we unleash the boo next week, completely forgetting the derby. But that's OK, it won't stop us

Gaffy was taunted and booed until their throats were sore... and unable to continue.

 

[FreeTK]

Gaffy was taunted and booed until their throats were sore... and unable to continue.

2. In the eyes of Fremantle supporters Andrew Gaff is public enemy No.1 and they were keen to remind him. Fortunately they had ample opportunity to do so as Gaff produced a typically hard-running performance through the midfield. There would be some hoarse Dockers fans today as Gaff accumulated 24 possessions, five of them contested, and his team gained 481 metres from his influence.

Five things we learned against Fremantle

Check out our writer's five key learnings from the club's 10th-straight RAC Derby victory over the Dockers

www.westcoasteagles.com.au

 

[who gives a]

Positive- Floggers lost again
Negative- The Floggers should have lost by more

 

[Dylan82]

I don't want to keep banging on about being at the game, but watching live you could see the switch kicks worked amazingly well for us.

We used the switch 100x better than Fremantle did and you could see it really opened the game up for us.

Might be different watching on TV, but not once did i think at the game that we were over possessing the ball in the back half.


APART FROM this one time when Oscar Allen beat his opponent and had a clear path to run inside 50 and either have a shot or deliver to JK or Darling..

And he turned directly back towards the opposition goal and went backwards into the corridor or something stupid.

It could've been one of the most exciting moments of the game, I was already up out of my seat, and due to coaching/structures/gameplan we totally killed it.

I need to watch the game and see if it was as bad as it looked, because i was filthy

It looked to me like he was not aware that he had so much space available in the moment and thus was not willing to pull the trigger off his non-dominant thinking that he was about to get tackled, instead back-stepping onto his dominant side towards the corridor where the available options were worse.

I think we forget that he remains 21 and is still yet to play 30 games.

No doubt that passage will be isolated by the coaching staff and used as encouragement for him to have confidence and back his skills in the future.

 

[HoneyBadger35]

I don't want to keep banging on about being at the game, but watching live you could see the switch kicks worked amazingly well for us.

We used the switch 100x better than Fremantle did and you could see it really opened the game up for us.

Might be different watching on TV, but not once did i think at the game that we were over possessing the ball in the back half.


APART FROM this one time when Oscar Allen beat his opponent and had a clear path to run inside 50 and either have a shot or deliver to JK or Darling..

And he turned directly back towards the opposition goal and went backwards into the corridor or something stupid.

It could've been one of the most exciting moments of the game, I was already up out of my seat, and due to coaching/structures/gameplan we totally killed it.

I need to watch the game and see if it was as bad as it looked, because i was filthy

Looked shithouse on TV too and made me audibly yell at the TV. I don't think it was over coaching and being too rigid on structures, I think he just thought he had someone charging him down which he did not. Similar thing happened to JK at one point, and Freo did leave their men to move up towards the play, so I guess that's what Allen expected.

People still not understanding our game style and how well it works, how effective switches are, and how badly it chokes teams out make me laugh. What are we, six years, two Grand Finals and one flag into it? And still people freak out that our back flankers chip the ball around?

 

[FreeTK]

Looked shithouse on TV too and made me audibly yell at the TV. I don't think it was over coaching and being too rigid on structures, I think he just thought he had someone charging him down which he did not. Similar thing happened to JK at one point, and Freo did leave their men to move up towards the play, so I guess that's what Allen expected.

People still not understanding our game style and how well it works, how effective switches are, and how badly it chokes teams out make me laugh. What are we, six years, two Grand Finals and one flag into it? And still people freak out that our back flankers chip the ball around?

But apparently it's BOOOORING.




NB: To be fair, it isn't a game plan that you can decipher well on TV. A lot of what happens with West Coast's ball movement and how it shifts the field of play happens way out of shot on TV.

 

[HoneyBadger35]

But apparently it's BOOOORING.




NB: To be fair, it isn't a game plan that you can decipher well on TV. A lot of what happens with West Coast's ball movement and how it shift the field of play happens way out of shot on TV.

Yeah I noticed that with his constant whinging on the call.

I can’t tell you to enjoy the game style if you don’t. That’s your call, fine. I love it. Not just I like it because it yields results, I love watching it as a spectacle. At its best it’s a perfect machine with every part in sync. You can just choose to watch, say, Shep or Gaff, and just follow them for a minute, watch them pick up three touches each and suddenly we’re on the far wing in acres of space. All the boomers groan at the footy when we start chipping it, then suddenly roar in anticipation as someone gets the ball 40m clear going inside 50. They will never connect the two and will never shut up. Meanwhile it just keeps yielding results.

I acknowledge the entertainment element of it is better to watch live than on TV, because you can actually engage with all the awesome movement off ball, but if you’re watching on TV and not a fan of it, I just want you to consider any time we “stuff around with it” for too long, then get in miles of space, how exactly the two are linked.

Framing it as the conservative approach is also laughable. It’s an unreal backing in of your skills and fitness, because if you stuff up a kick it’s almost a guaranteed goal. Turning into the corridor and banging it long to “take the game on” is far far far less likely to result in the ball coming straight back with interest. At worst you’re gaining territory and going again. If our back flanks miss the “chip” kicks, it’s a walk in goal to the opponent. A more accurate framing is methodical vs aggressive, but why shouldn’t the best teams in the league excerpt control over a game if they’re good enough?

Ultimately this game style and its offshoots will be remembered for at least four flags (Hawks x3, Eagles x1) and Garry Lyon will be remembered for bawling on a stretcher and rooting his mates wife.

 

[Ishmael_]

NB: To be fair, it isn't a game plan that you can decipher well on TV. A lot of what happens with West Coast's ball movement and how it shifts the field of play happens way out of shot on TV.

I think this is the salient point. It is boring to watch at times on TV, because you have zero context of the wider field of play. At the ground you can see our backs testing the lines, looking for gaps and moving it forward. It's no accident that Garry felt this way when he's calling off the TV.

I actually thought our ball movement was much better than it has been this game. When it's good, you're almost surprised how quickly the footy has been moved uncontested by foot from deep in the back pocket to the forward half and the next kick is an inside 50.

 

[FreeTK]

Yeah I noticed that with his constant whinging on the call.

I can’t tell you to enjoy the game style if you don’t. That’s your call, fine. I love it. Not just I like it because it yields results, I love watching it as a spectacle. At its best a perfect machine with every part in sync. You can just choose to watch, say, Shep or Gaff, and just follow then for a minute, watch them pick up three touches each and suddenly we’re on the far wing in acres of space. All the boomers groan at the footy when we start chipping it, then suddenly roar in anticipation as someone gets the ball 40m clear going inside 50. They will never connect the two and will never shut up. Meanwhile it just keeps yielding results.

I acknowledge the entertainment element of it is better to watch live than on TV, because you can actually engage with all the awesome movement off ball, but if you’re watching on TV and not a fan of it, I just want you to consider any time we “stuff around with it” for too long, then get in miles of space, how exactly the two are linked.

Ultimately this game style and its offshoots will be remembered for at least four flags (Hawks x3, Eagles x1) and Garry Lyon will be remembered for bawling on a stretcher and rooting his mates wife.

Not sure if your use of "you" and "your" is directed at me.

Personally, I love our game style.

But my comment was just an observation of how seeing footy on TV limits the fans ability to understand what is going on around the field when broadcast is too tightly focussed on the ball carrier.

Also - I wonder if our game plan has changed a little bit over the last 18 to be more risk averse, and if that is a conscious decision made by coaches. It might just be nostalgia, but I feel like we moved the ball quicker in 2018 and were more willing to go quickly even at the risk of turning it over.

 

[FreeTK]

I think this is the salient point. It is boring to watch at times on TV, because you have zero context of the wider field of play. At the ground you can see our backs testing the lines, looking for gaps and moving it forward. It's no accident that Garry felt this way when he's calling off the TV.

I actually thought our ball movement was much better than it has been this game. When it's good, you're almost surprised how quickly the footy has been moved uncontested by foot from deep in the back pocket to the forward half and the next kick is an inside 50.

So I live in Melbourne and don't get to see many games live.

Last year when I was at the cats game it was quite a dramatic difference between seeing it live and watching it on TV. It's a very quirky style of play, like a kaleidoscope where things surprise you and seemingly come out of nowhere.

It's underappreciated by Victorian media because they see it in person far less, and Victorians have a set idea of how footy should be played, which is based more around contested footy and "ground ball gets".

 

[HoneyBadger35]

Not sure if your use of "you" and "your" is directed at me.

Personally, I love our game style.

But my comment was just an observation of how seeing footy on TV limits the fans ability to understand what is going on around the field when broadcast is too tightly focussed on the ball carrier.

Also - I wonder if our game plan has changed a little bit over the last 18 to be more risk averse, and if that is a conscious decision made by coaches. It might just be nostalgia, but I feel like we moved the ball quicker in 2018 and were more willing to go quickly even at the risk of turning it over.

It wasn’t sorry, just putting it out to the general “bang it long” crowd.

I wonder if it’s risk aversion or if it’s other teams shaping up better. We’ve always used this possession game to a degree, but the leap in quality from 2017 to 2018 wasn’t just due to bringing in some exciting players. I feel like we took the possession game to a new level, and I wonder if teams have had two years to really study what we do and plan accordingly.

I think there is an increase in risk aversion amongst certain players (Hurn notably, and Jetta early on), but the last three weeks, opposition acknowledged, our defence are really starting to shape the entire game. Choking teams out as they try to exit 50, controlling possession and moving the opponent’s defensive structure around at will when we have it. Duggan has dialled up his drive forward. Nelson good. Shep keeps on being a star. I think the drive is back in our game a fair bit these last few weeks.

 

[omgfridge]

Yeah I noticed that with his constant whinging on the call.

I can’t tell you to enjoy the game style if you don’t. That’s your call, fine. I love it. Not just I like it because it yields results, I love watching it as a spectacle. At its best it’s a perfect machine with every part in sync. You can just choose to watch, say, Shep or Gaff, and just follow them for a minute, watch them pick up three touches each and suddenly we’re on the far wing in acres of space. All the boomers groan at the footy when we start chipping it, then suddenly roar in anticipation as someone gets the ball 40m clear going inside 50. They will never connect the two and will never shut up. Meanwhile it just keeps yielding results.

I acknowledge the entertainment element of it is better to watch live than on TV, because you can actually engage with all the awesome movement off ball, but if you’re watching on TV and not a fan of it, I just want you to consider any time we “stuff around with it” for too long, then get in miles of space, how exactly the two are linked.

Framing it as the conservative approach is also laughable. It’s an unreal backing in of your skills and fitness, because if you stuff up a kick it’s almost a guaranteed goal. Turning into the corridor and banging it long to “take the game on” is far far far less likely to result in the ball coming straight back with interest. At worst you’re gaining territory and going again. If our back flanks miss the “chip” kicks, it’s a walk in goal to the opponent. A more accurate framing is methodical vs aggressive, but why shouldn’t the best teams in the league excerpt control over a game if they’re good enough?

Ultimately this game style and its offshoots will be remembered for at least four flags (Hawks x3, Eagles x1) and Garry Lyon will be remembered for bawling on a stretcher and rooting his mates wife.

Can you come to my work tomorrow because I legit had this chat at work today.

I reminded my mate we won a flag with this play. "Yeah buts its a bit boring isn't it? I want to go down the middle." Yeah probably why Simmo gets payed a bit more than you buddy.

 

[FKASC]

Don’t mind the switch, but when you have Hurn back there tucked into a back flank and instead of switching or looking inside, kicks it 10 metres to Sheppard who is closer to the boundary line, that shits me. He’s just absolving himself the responsibility.

Then Sheppard invariably has no choice but kick a lollipop long down the line which gets brought to ground with our smalls outnumbered or flat footed.

 

[Gugs9]

Agree with Dark Sharks, being at the ground it didn’t feel like we over possessed the ball at all. Keeping possession in the back half shifted freo’s press well and particularly after half time freo were exhausted defending and hardly had a look in.

I know we have played 3 average opponents but all 3 wins have had a very 2018 feel about them.

Build a slight advantage in the first half, pummel the opponent in a burst in the third quarter and then cruise and suffocate the opposition with our possession style in the last quarter.

Will be a good test the next couple of weeks against good opposition to see if our 2018 form is truly back.

 

[HoneyBadger35]

Don’t mind the switch, but when you have Hurn back there tucked into a back flank and instead of switching or looking inside, kicks it 10 metres to Sheppard who is closer to the boundary line, that shits me. He’s just absolving himself the responsibility.

Then Sheppard invariably has no choice but kick a lollipop long down the line which gets brought to ground with our smalls outnumbered or flat footed.

I think that’s grouping a heap of cases together and saying they’re all made equal.

Hurn has been down this year and noticeably less aggressive on his kicking, but equally most of those short chipped kicks to the boundary result are a key part of what we do. Using every blade of grass we can to stretch teams wide is why the switch works so well.

Hurn doing the right but unspectacular thing isn’t a bad decision just because he’s having a poor year. It’s not like we just set it up the line all the time the second Hurn gives off.

 

[omgfridge]

Maybe Hurn is playing down so Sheppard finally gets his deserved AA?

 

[Mattman93]

Anyone else concerned about Cameron?

Looks like he's running in sand. I know he wouldn't be fully fit, but its been evident even in the opening minutes. Worried he might have copped the old OP hit.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Anyone else concerned about Cameron?

Looks like he's running in sand. I know he wouldn't be fully fit, but its been evident even in the opening minutes. Worried he might have copped the old OP hit.

Yeah. He’s legs are pumping but he’s not covering the ground.

Hopefully it’s a conditioning and strength issue that can be rectified by time.


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[Eastern Rangers]

The balance is not right ATM
It crept more and more into our games last season..now it’s just the default option

Improved team defences around the league and we don’t have the right balance of run to make all that kicking dangerous offensively.


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[Dark Sharks]

I think the switching, over possessing the ball in the back half needs to be assessed on each game.


Sheppard - 23 touches at 100% with 10 marks

Nelson - 23 touches at 82% with 8 marks

Hurn - 17 touches at 88% with 10 marks.

Barrass - 13 touches at 90% with 10 marks

Duggan - 19 touches at 73% with 8 marks

Hell, even Waterman dominated at both ends with 15 touches at 73% with 10 marks and 2 snags to boot.

These are old school Hawthorn Esq numbers. Compare them to the Dockers, who's marking was lead understandably by Taberner and Lobb with 7 a piece.



It worked this game because we took control of the tempo and managed to utilize the space and player we identified free on the opposite wing.

It's different in other games when we're behind and racing against the clock and we don't know how to go fast because we're stuck in this slower gear.

The situation changes from game to game. From opponent to opponent, depending on how they defend it.


All the while while we're switching we should be (like any team) looking for that attacking kick into the corridor which opens up the entire field. Against Fremantle, i don't recall that kick being on, or if it was we didn't use it. Perhaps Cockburn prioritized defending the corridor.

I also, as i've said before don't think we really possess the kicking firepower down back without Jetta in the team to make that attacking kick. Cole, Nelson, Duggan and Barrass aren't capable IMO. McGovern bites off more than he chews and it pays off about once in every 5 attempts.



I'm not sure what's been missing from Hurns game since round 1, because i can't see a clear trend or anything in his stats other than the lack of ball and impact he's having. Bottom line is he just isn't attacking enough with his disposals at the moment.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Add 20% and our scores are 95, 55, 53, 49, 92, 80, 74. Proportionally speaking they're still not great and this is league wide.

Less minutes equals less fatigue, more congestion late in quarters and games and less free flowing football.


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