Autopsy Positives and Negatives - Round 7 vs Dockers

[Biggie]

For those who may have forgotten - stickied to the top of every page for your convenience.

 

[shooshka]

Not quite sure where this undervaluing of defenders comes in, like defenders who are only back men are somehow not worthy? Or unless you make the leap from the backline to midfield you were just a guy that hit their ceiling.

Shep not being a mid is fantastic, because he’s one of the best defenders in the league and has been our best player this year.

Duggan not being a mid is fantastic, because he gives us drive off half back. Likewise Jetta, who set a lot up for us over the years as a surgical user of the footy off half back.

Not being a mid and therefore not being a threat is a very old school look at it. Our backline are the most pivotal part of our entire game style. I want more quality defenders, not less.

I hope my post regarding Nelson wasn't taken as undervaluing defenders, it certainly wasn't meant to do that! I guess the point I was hoping to make is that we may have midfield depth on our hbf, as we have plenty of hbf depth in the reserves (or whatever we call those out of the team nowadays) and relatively little midfield depth.

I'm not rushing to move anyone (and hopefully injury, form and age don't force any changes for a couple of seasons), but it is nice to think that we have capable players in defence who might be able to step into the midfield holes after the eventual retirements that we will have there, and also capable players (Rotham for example), who would be in most teams b22, to come into defence.

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[flamingEMBERS]

But apparently it's BOOOORING.




NB: To be fair, it isn't a game plan that you can decipher well on TV. A lot of what happens with West Coast's ball movement and how it shifts the field of play happens way out of shot on TV.

I’m a big fan of our game style and it isn’t truly appreciated unless you sit at least half way up the ground level at Optus. Kick mark spread. That said I still love watching us on TV. We truly play a great style when we’re on.

The short kick is used to split the defenders and then you go to the next player that wasn’t used. It’s simple mathematics.

Only thing I’ve found is we probably are a little more conservative this year, but that’s ok we’re building, missed half the season and missing our two most dangerous kicks in Rioli and Jetta.

Do I feel our contested work could improve. Of course. But that style isn’t the be all and end all of football. It helps to win the contest for sure. But in the meantime we’ve added to our “ground ball gets” by recruiting Kelly.

 

[DanWCE]

Gaff has had 6 minutes on the bench over the last three games (292 minutes combined, or 4hrs 52min) including 0 interchange rotations in the derby.

What a beast.

 

[RookiePick]

Gaff has had 6 minutes on the bench over the last three games (292 minutes combined, or 4hrs 52min) including 0 interchange rotations in the derby.

What a beast.

Fuelled BY boooo on the weekend.

 

[FreeTK]

I’m a big fan of our game style and it isn’t truly appreciated unless you sit at least half way up the ground level at Optus. Kick mark spread. That said I still love watching us on TV. We truly play a great style when we’re on.

The short kick is used to split the defenders and then you go to the next player that wasn’t used. It’s simple mathematics.

Only thing I’ve found is we probably are a little more conservative this year, but that’s ok we’re building, missed half the season and missing our two most dangerous kicks in Rioli and Jetta.

Do I feel our contested work could improve. Of course. But that style isn’t the be all and end all of football. It helps to win the contest for sure. But in the meantime we’ve added to our “ground ball gets” by recruiting Kelly.

In 2018 we were the #1 team in the league for contested marks. I think that Coincided with JD having his best ever start to the season. He was an absolute contested marking beast in 2018, including the GF (drop was uncontested mark and JD is no good at those ).

It's easy to forget how important he is in terms of providing a target when we are up and about.

EDIT: I just checked footy wire and in 2018 we had #1 (McGovern) and 2# (Darling) for contested marking.

 

[Cuzz09]

Anyone else concerned about Cameron?

Looks like he's running in sand. I know he wouldn't be fully fit, but its been evident even in the opening minutes. Worried he might have copped the old OP hit.

Yeah. He’s legs are pumping but he’s not covering the ground.

Hopefully it’s a conditioning and strength issue that can be rectified by time.


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if this is the case why is he playing?

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[Ambrose Burnside]

if this is the case why is he playing?

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Because Jones, Petch and Venables are injured. And Willie smokes pot.

 

[eaglesnutcase]

if this is the case why is he playing?

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I thought there were good signs from him on the weekend.Just little confidence things.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

In 2018 we were the #1 team in the league for contested marks. I think that Coincided with JD having his best ever start to the season. He was an absolute contested marking beast in 2018, including the GF (drop was uncontested mark and JD is no good at those ).

It's easy to forget how important he is in terms of providing a target when we are up and about.

EDIT: I just checked footy wire and in 2018 we had #1 (McGovern) and 2# (Darling) for contested marking.

I thought there was some good signs from JD on the weekend. Looked to get to more contests. But to me He still seems to be running heavy this year. I wonder if he’s added some extra bulk. He really is quite large when you see him from the ground level.

 

[bombard]

Yeah I noticed that with his constant whinging on the call.

I can’t tell you to enjoy the game style if you don’t. That’s your call, fine. I love it. Not just I like it because it yields results, I love watching it as a spectacle. At its best it’s a perfect machine with every part in sync. You can just choose to watch, say, Shep or Gaff, and just follow them for a minute, watch them pick up three touches each and suddenly we’re on the far wing in acres of space. All the boomers groan at the footy when we start chipping it, then suddenly roar in anticipation as someone gets the ball 40m clear going inside 50. They will never connect the two and will never shut up. Meanwhile it just keeps yielding results.

I acknowledge the entertainment element of it is better to watch live than on TV, because you can actually engage with all the awesome movement off ball, but if you’re watching on TV and not a fan of it, I just want you to consider any time we “stuff around with it” for too long, then get in miles of space, how exactly the two are linked.

Framing it as the conservative approach is also laughable. It’s an unreal backing in of your skills and fitness, because if you stuff up a kick it’s almost a guaranteed goal. Turning into the corridor and banging it long to “take the game on” is far far far less likely to result in the ball coming straight back with interest. At worst you’re gaining territory and going again. If our back flanks miss the “chip” kicks, it’s a walk in goal to the opponent. A more accurate framing is methodical vs aggressive, but why shouldn’t the best teams in the league excerpt control over a game if they’re good enough?

Ultimately this game style and its offshoots will be remembered for at least four flags (Hawks x3, Eagles x1) and Garry Lyon will be remembered for bawling on a stretcher and rooting his mates wife.

Two things:

- Garry Lyon strikes me as a bloke who maintains a google alert on his own name. In that spirit, I'd love to make sure he sees this: Garry Lyon Garry Lyon Garry Lyon.

- Was it just me or were Freo flooding the crap out of their backline early on? It didn't feel to me that we were the negative force on that game at all. Rather, the Freo (who made a rational choice to go defensive) ran out of puff and our structure/team just came over the top of them late in Q2 onwards.

 

[DanWCE]

My procrastination knows no bounds this week.

We're averaging almost 20 more inside 50s per game than our opponents over the last three weeks. If we keep those numbers up I think we'll see some big wins posted.

JK in particular could have killed a few sides off his own boot, but if we see JD hit that menacing early 2018 form I suspect some games will be over by half time.

 

[Coasters7]

No idea how anyone can call our game boring. Boring to me is flooding the backline and countering in a huge pack or “smashing the ball forward at all costs” ala Richmond.

I love our methodical approach because it takes a lot of skill to pull off and is based on the fundamentals of the entire sport. Kicking, marking and efficient shots at goal. Rather than scrapping it forward and hoping for the best.

It might seem “boring” to a neutral at some points of the game but that’s the beauty of the way we’re able to control tempo. On the weekend was the perfect example. Freo were getting their tails up in the 4th, so what did we do? Forced them to make the play. “If you want to get back in the game you’re going to have to get the ball off us first”. That’s us at our very best.

It’s not always slow like that either. If we’re mentally switched on and our skills/chemistry are there, and we decide to up the pace, it’s damn good to watch us slice through defences.

I liken it to some of Guardiolas teams over the years (obviously the success isn’t quite at that level but we’ve done alright). They’ll pass it around the back and middle for a little, move the defence back and forth and suddenly boom, they’ve found an opening, pinged a couple of pinpoint passes up the pitch and are in your 18 yard box having a shot at goal. Then if they’re really feeling it they’ll press right up and choke you out. Very similar to the way we play. Albeit probably not quite as ruthless.

We haven’t been all there this year or even most of last but at our best it’s the sexiest form of football and I enjoy watching every bit of it.

Wouldn’t take Gary’s advice on boredom either. Had to root his mates wife to get some excitement in his life so probably gets bored by most things.

 

[Jiggyman]

It looked to me like he was not aware that he had so much space available in the moment and thus was not willing to pull the trigger off his non-dominant thinking that he was about to get tackled, instead back-stepping onto his dominant side towards the corridor where the available options were worse.

I think we forget that he remains 21 and is still yet to play 30 games.

No doubt that passage will be isolated by the coaching staff and used as encouragement for him to have confidence and back his skills in the future.

I noticed a few times we had a player with possession just above the HFF, there were open running options inboard into an open 50, but we instead elected to work the long kick in to a Kennedy or Darling lead to the pocket. I believe it was a conscious call to get the footy into our talls with Fremantle so undermanned in key defensive options. I think we missed 3 or so goals with this kind of overly conservative forward-half decision-making, which obviously still managed to win us the game... The limited training definitely hasn't helped with our link-up.

 

[Feeling Groovy]

Improved team defences around the league and we don’t have the right balance of run to make all that kicking dangerous offensively.


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This. It isn't the chipping around and kicking back that bothers me. That is our style and has done well for us. It is our lack of pace/run and pentetrating kicking from the back half at times. The balance is wrong. Part of that is no Jetta (and Hurn's form/conservative kicking) and our backs are not overly quick. That said, when we do run the ball, with Kelly etc, we look dynamic. A bit more run and handball at the right moments would be nice. I think it would help our forwards too.

 

[PintSzedSlasher]

The old double switch is one of our biggest weapons, always think its a decent sign if its coming out.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

This. It isn't the chipping around and kicking back that bothers me. That is our style and has done well for us. It is our lack of pace/run and pentetrating kicking from the back half at times. The balance is wrong. Part of that is no Jetta (and Hurn's form/conservative kicking) and our backs are not overly quick. That said, when we do run the ball, with Kelly etc, we look dynamic. A bit more run and handball at the right moments would be nice. I think it would help our forwards too.

If we take history and runs on the board out, our backline probably looks better with Jetta in and Hurn out.

 

[FKASC]

This. It isn't the chipping around and kicking back that bothers me. That is our style and has done well for us. It is our lack of pace/run and pentetrating kicking from the back half at times. The balance is wrong. Part of that is no Jetta (and Hurn's form/conservative kicking) and our backs are not overly quick. That said, when we do run the ball, with Kelly etc, we look dynamic. A bit more run and handball at the right moments would be nice. I think it would help our forwards too.

Need to insert the Johnson

 

[Eastern Rangers]

This. It isn't the chipping around and kicking back that bothers me. That is our style and has done well for us. It is our lack of pace/run and pentetrating kicking from the back half at times. The balance is wrong. Part of that is no Jetta (and Hurn's form/conservative kicking) and our backs are not overly quick. That said, when we do run the ball, with Kelly etc, we look dynamic. A bit more run and handball at the right moments would be nice. I think it would help our forwards too.

You can make space with a kick and mark game. That kick to the defensive corner of the centre square is one way to force the defence to roll back and spread out over a larger portion that the field, that gives players like Gaff and Cripps opportunity to get busy on the spread.

The other is those long offensive switches that involve two kicks across the field. If you kick the ball four times moving across the field you’ve moved the ball too laterally and defensively and too slowly.


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[Wadsworth]

...I'm still worried about strong marking oppo forwards, Dixon killed us when we were playing Port and Tabernar and Lobb looked like gods when Freo had consistent F50 entries. Our defense has been decent this season and Cole and Duggan have been good but one may have to make way for Schoey to play on those strong marking types soon thus freeing up Gov and Barrass.

A lot of comments about how susceptible our talls are defensively one on one.

Perhaps the answer is partly in how and where we're zoning off. Are we getting more pressure and forcing turnovers further up the ground and allowing less forward 50 entries? We dominated the F50 entries, but looked susceptible when it went into their F50. Perhaps the zoning structures are moving further up the ground and the more open defensive 50 is part of that trade-off.

It'll be interesting seeing a game at the ground rather than on TV if there are noticeable differences. I'd be interested if anyone has any thoughts on this.

 

[Reminiscence]

I gotta say its a huge positive at just how good some of our key position players are overhead.

Barrass, Mcgovern, JK, Allen, Waterman

They seem to have that sheer ability to cleanly clunk marks at full stretch.
Massive kudos to them for all of their hard work, but also for the coaching team.

 

[FKASC]

I gotta say its a huge positive at just how good some of our key position players are overhead.

Barrass, Mcgovern, JK, Allen, Waterman

They seem to have that sheer ability to cleanly clunk marks at full stretch.
Massive kudos to them for all of their hard work, but also for the coaching team.

Allen especially. Sticky handed mother*er

 

[Hap Hapablap]

Probably shouldn't have told him you were banging his wife.

haha.

in all seriousness the last time we lost a derby was in 2014?

 

[jesterwester]

Lyon on the one hand was getting annoyed at our ball movement, then praising Fremantle for using the “full width of the ground to stretch our defenders” almost in the same breath.

Say what you want about that period of no scoring in the second, those 3 goals in 90 seconds came as a direct result of us absorbing Fremantle’s pressure and then restricting them from exiting the back half. The dam wall broke.

 

[ioppolo]

haha.

in all seriousness the last time we lost a derby was in 2014?

Early 2015

 

[ziad]

Lyon on the one hand was getting annoyed at our ball movement, then praising Fremantle for using the “full width of the ground to stretch our defenders” almost in the same breath.

Say what you want about that period of no scoring in the second, those 3 goals in 90 seconds came as a direct result of us absorbing Fremantle’s pressure and then restricting them from exiting the back half. The dam wall broke.

You listen to a bitter Jack Watts advocate?