Review Positives and Negatives vs Gold Coast

[Patron]

We have a forward problem. None of our smalls are natural crumbers, particularly clean at ground level, or support the mids up the ground.

Rioli was the answer. His tackling pressure too was great.


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[FreeTK]

We have no clue what his preparation was like in the four months since round 1, or what affect the hub has had on him. The conditions were also awful, and our midfield display certainly didn’t help either. The fact remains that we can’t know the effect the ridiculous gap of time between the end of his preseason and yesterday has had, and to ignore it is a bit unfair, at least to me.

All I’m getting at is that we have to see more games this season, rather then basing it off a run of form that happened half a year ago - whether he’s slowing down or not can‘t be ascertained off data that has been affected by a once in a lifetime event, at least not now.

That's cool, I think we are more or less on the same page.

There are three talented players that are either playing out of position, or missing out all together, Allen, Brander, Williams.

This moment in time has been coming since the end of 2018. The club, supporters and media have known for a couple of years that we would end up in this place. Now we have committed to playing young tall talent out of position in order to keep JK in his position, despite diminishing returns from his output.

Here's an article from a couple of weeks ago that pretty much lays it all out there, and is somewhat prescient in terms of the situation we are currently in.

Braden Quartermaine: Practice perfect patience required for West Coast coach Adam Simpson as same tall dilemma looms

As West Coast head back to Queensland for the first time since last season’s season-opening debacle against Brisbane, everything has changed and nothing has changed.
Footy might have done a Liam Ryan double backflip thanks to the COVID-19 pandemic, but Adam Simpson is left with the same problem he had last March.
So many promising young talls and not enough spots in the team for them.

In round one last year at a super slippery Gabba, the reigning premiers tried to squeeze the tall timber in.
The Eagles went in with eight talls, if you count 195cm utility Jarrod Brander, and came unstuck as they kicked just two goals after quarter-time in a shock 44-point loss.

West Coast have long backed in their talls.
Under John Worsfold, the Eagles sometimes fielded the tallest team in the league.
Under Adam Simpson, they have remained wedded to their two-ruckman strategy despite most clubs moving towards one specialist and a pinch-hitter.
It helped carry them to a flag in 2018 when they nullified Brodie Grundy (twice) and Max Gawn in a memorable September despite not having Nic Naitanui. But a month-long stint in Queensland, including three potentially dewy night games, has raised the stakes.
Tom Hickey, picked in round one against Gawn’s Melbourne despite the shorter quarters, looks a likely casualty for Saturday night’s clash with Gold Coast at Metricon Stadium.
The Eagles are desperate to play Brander and Oscar Allen, even if it’s out of position, and Bailey Williams is exciting and now looks ready to play as a forward/ruck.

The dilemma is amplified this season by the banning of AFL-listed players featuring in the WAFL.
If you don’t find a spot for your brightest emerging talents, where do they develop?
Yet they can’t all fit.
Brander, 21, was selected for that Gabba disaster last year and then just once more for the rest of the season.
With Chris Masten moved on, the club has creatively found what could be a regular spot for Brander on the wing this season despite his long-term appeal surely remaining as the key-position player he was drafted as.
Allen, also 21, is in a similar boat. He’s a natural footballer, not a natural ruckman, yet playing him in the forward/ruck role last year was a way to keep him in the side.
The West Perth product shapes as a suitable replacement at either and of the ground for any of Josh Kennedy, Jack Darling, Jeremy McGovern or Tom Barrass should they go down.

In the meantime, Allen doesn’t quite fit anywhere and last September when it was crunch time he was left out altogether.
Williams, 20, looks the leading contender if the Eagles want a natural forward/ruck to support Naitanui, but where does that leave Allen?
Kennedy’s retirement is the domino that would allow the next generation talls to be used in their natural positions.
Yet Kennedy, 33 in August, doesn’t look to be going anywhere just yet.
He booted six goals in the pre-season clash with Essendon in February and kicked another bag in an intraclub hit-out on Friday night.
Fewer games, shorter quarters and less flights might prove to be a good recipe for the ageing champion in 2020.
The glut of bigs is a legacy of the 2017 national draft, when the Eagles ‘accidentally’ walked away with Brander and Allen with picks 13 and 21.
There was no plan to take talls; the club simply couldn’t believe the pair were still on the table as rival clubs obsessed over midfielders and viewed them as deals too good to pass up.
It shapes as a savvy long-term move.
But with the Eagles believing they are in the go-zone to win a second flag in three seasons, some of the youngsters might have to be patient.

The bones of it is, at what point do we say "JK is no longer best 22"?

 

[Rowan18]

I think teams will find us out this season if we don't change our gameplan ASAP.

They can just.

• Run the ball from our forward line with ease thanks to our Dicky McGeezaks forward pressure.
• Hit our midfield hard with strong physicality.
• Smash us in ground ball gets, Dees smashed us in that statistic in round 1.
• Catch us on the fast break where our mids can't, won't or struggle to run the other way.
• Get the ball to our defensive 50 ASAP so they won't allow our defense to set up on a fast break.
• Put a small defensive forward on Gov to make him accountable and to also make him run more instead of Gov running and jumping at the footy.
• Avoid bombing it high in our defensive 50 unless necessary.
• Lowering the eyes to players who are open/not being manned or on a lead to avoid Barrass, Gov, Hurn and co intercepting it.
• Put gun crumbers if the footy goes to ground in our defensive 50 and make us pay for spoiling or not marking it.
• Get the small forwards to pressure Hurn and Jetta so they can't get a clean kick away or reduce their kicking efficiency so Barrass, Shep or Duggan can kick it more since they lack the penetration Hurn and Jetta have.
• Play us tight man on man to stop us chipping it around with ease and make us go down the line more. (We win around 95% of the time if we take more than 90 marks, we only took 56 marks against Gold Coast).
• Work harder than us.
• Kick more accurate at goal than us if possible.

We aren't at all convincing let along playing like top four favorites in 2020. The Dees in round 1 were playing better than us at a stretch but poor decision making and inaccuracy at goal costed them the game against us, if they were more accurate and made better decisions then I reckon they could've won against us unfortunately.

Not sure if Allen or Darling are number 1 forwards despite JK's clear decline. Allen and Darling do pretty well when JK takes the best defender so I'm not sure how will they do with the best defender on them. Hopefully Brander can be our FF in the future despite us playing him on the wing.

Darling has proved conclusively that he can play number 1 forward. He has excelled in many games in 2018 and 2019 when Kennedy wasn't there and is usually the better performed when Kennedy plays now days (including last night).

 

[Antomonic]

It's really really hard to "teach" tall forwards to play in the midfield. You either get it or you don't. Players like Pat Cripps gets it because he was 170cm as a junior and so it's just a bonus now he's big. For someone like Brander I really don't get it. I just don't see how he's going to complete on the wing against, well, any good natural wingman who knows the running patterns and knows where to run to be damaging. He looks so lost. Doesn't have an elite kick and while he may be able to run well, there's so much more that goes into playing successfully in the midfield -- what am i missing?

 

[Dark Sharks]

I've been in the Kennedy should be phased out camp for a couple years now, and it's interesting watching the idea gaining momentum.

Unfortunately yall are failing to realize that we've turned his replacement into a slimmed down, outside running beatnik.

You can't just snap your fingers and Brander plays KPF again.

And if the alternative is to send Oscar forward and bring Bailey into 2nd ruck.. thats also a stretch.

If Brander was still a KPF I'd want Kennedy out asap, but I don't think I've got enough confidence in Bailey and Allen eclipsing his output. Bit of a stretch for 2 young talls.

 

[Godfather32]

I've been in the Kennedy should be phased out camp for a couple years now, and it's interesting watching the idea gaining momentum.

Unfortunately yall are failing to realize that we've turned his replacement into a slimmed down, outside running beatnik.

You can't just snap your fingers and Brander plays KPF again.

And if the alternative is to send Oscar forward and bring Bailey into 2nd ruck.. thats also a stretch.

If Brander was still a KPF I'd want Kennedy out asap, but I don't think I've got enough confidence in Bailey and Allen eclipsing his output. Bit of a stretch for 2 young talls.

We've 100% s**t the bed with Brander's development but I don't particularly want to see JK struggling to keep up for next 4 or 5 months.
Allen looked good yesterday and I've been high on Williams since I saw him live, he's going to be a very good player. What about if we brought Waterman into the mix and dropped someone like Ah Chee?
I don't see Brander lasting much longer on the wing, I'd rather put Cole there.

 

[Quinz]

Is Waterman good enough to play JD while JD moves to JK?

 

[ziad]

We've 100% s**t the bed with Brander's development but I don't particularly want to see JK struggling to keep up for next 4 or 5 months.
Allen looked good yesterday and I've been high on Williams since I saw him live, he's going to be a very good player. What about if we brought Waterman into the mix and dropped someone like Ah Chee?
I don't see Brander lasting much longer on the wing, I'd rather put Cole there.

Brander may not last on the wing, although he did show some skill and a few occasions and we should perhaps persevere.

However, given his attack on the ball he is miles away from making it as a forward,

 

[Godfather32]

Brander may not last on the wing, although he did show some skill and a few occasions and we should perhaps persevere.

However, given his attack on the ball he is miles away from making it as a forward,

Oh I wasn't suggesting Brander should go to the forward line, I agree with you, unless he improves his attack on the ball he's as useful as a tall Ash Smith.

 

[Avalor]

+ The loss I guess? Had to cop this feeling again at some point so hopefully it's a wake up call that the season is actually back on.
+ Jetta and McGovern I suppose. Can't remember too many positive performances. Gaff and Shuey tried hard but were ineffective.

- Ball winners. Redden outside, Sheed outside; who is winning the ball these days? Throw somebody else in and change it up mid-game if it's not working.
- Non-stop fumbles. Need to fix.
- Invisible players. Off the top of my head I didn't notice Sheppard, Cripps, Kennedy, Redden.
- Lack of intensity by a fair few; Sheed especially.
- Ah Chee way too many single efforts.
- Ryan's accuracy.

Jetta was terrible. Certainly not a +

 

[frenchconnection]

Might well be year four of his career before he plays in front of a home crowd. What an odd start to the career of a first rounder.

IMO not so sure he has been given much of a chance really - has Simmo got something against him lol - the poor buggar - it would be good if he could get a game when the rest of the team are firing - instead he always gets selected when they decide to play as soft as butter!

 

[frenchconnection]

Coming in to tonight; 19 losses in row. 7 wins from their last 50.

Next week should tell us where they really are and possibly where we are at - presume Gold Coast play Freo next weekend?

 

[Avalor]

Just a lack of skills, no where near our best footy. Dribble kicks, Turnovers, No numbers in the contest.

Tim Kelly was at 45% Disposal efficiency, for all the hype about him, that is not good enough. Our midfield in the short term is still figuring out how to play with him, it absolutely hurt us having sheed playing as a forward.

Brander the jury is still out on him playing on the wing, did nothing in the first game and was even worse tonight, he played like a WAFL player.


Allen, Kennedy, Shuey were the only positives tonight.

JK a positive? Most are calling for his head after his last 2 performances.

 

[Coaster2012]

If there is a time to have our worst performance in recent memory, its round 1 of the restart. I expect the boys to come out fired up after that piss poor showing. And if they dont, well...kiss 2020 goodbye.

 

[Balls In]

Moron McGovern.

Leader, my ass.

That was not a strike deserving a week. Give me a break. The push into the fence was worse but that happens every game. Stitch up.

 

[Coaster2012]

That was not a strike deserving a week. Give me a break. The push into the fence was worse but that happens every game. Stitch up.

Strikes with close fists are always 1 week now. Theres no debating it. Guy completely lost his head and basically volunteered to have a week off. Hope he got a spray in the lockeroom

 

[Coaster2012]

I think people need to remember that we haven’t actually beaten Gold Coast at Metricon since 2014. I heard the stat mentioned in the commentary, but we’ve played there twice in the last five years.

The last time we actually beat Gold Coast there was in 2014. Since then, we had a draw (in 2015) and a loss (in 2017). Both times we were expected to smash them, but it ended up being a close match. Additionally, the weather in 2015 was incredibly similar to this match.

Not to excuse the performance, but results always seem to turn up weird when we play them at that ground. It could be a similar case to our record at the SCG.

It's amazing that no one in the footy public, nor the west coast top brass were aware of these facts. We fought to play in the QLD play over Victoria because????

 

[Scotland]

Positives: 0.

Brander isn't a wing. Allen isn't a ruck. Not really sure why we're trying to play both out of the forward line while picking Ah Chee as a pseudo third tall.

 

[ChampRevesby]

Sounds like the players are buying into their own self worth and BS again.
How about Simmo stops coddling them and actually treats them like professionals that need to pull their fingers out to actually legitimize their position.

 

[The Stid]

Have been a bit MIA over the past couple of months, I hope you have all been keeping well both physically and mentally.

Well what a complete sh*t show that was on Saturday. I’m not going to bother making a negatives list as they’ve mostly been covered. But will say, I’m not panicking (just yet) given the lads have just packed up their lives and moved to the other side of the country this week. Just looked incredibly flat, heavy legged and disinterested. And of course struggled to handle the slippery conditions again

I’ll try and come up with a few Positives but it’ll be tough.
+ Allen
+Shuey
+TK’s start
+ Pizza & Footy night made a long awaited return.

One thing I’m interested in getting others opinions on is this.

I’ve noticed that we seem to lack mid rotations. We don’t have any pinch hitters in the Current 22 since losing LeCras, Rioli & Venners over the past two seasons and we’re still playing the same amount of Mids (7) as we have over the past two seasons. So are the mids tiring? Resulting in poor i50s and forward press and allowing the oppo mids/HB’s to create plays resulting in oppo i50s? Only Jetta, Duggan, Nelson & Ah Chee currently in the 22 have midfield experience at AFL/WAFL level, but none of them have provided a chop out in the first two rounds (that I can recall)

2018
Full time mids:

Shuey
Yeo
Gaff
Sheed
Redden
Masten
Hutchings

Part time/casuals:

LeCras
Rioli
Venables

2019:
FT

Shuey
Yeo
Gaff
Sheed
Redden
Masten
Hutchings

PT/C’s
Rioli
Venables (concussed RD9)

2020 RD 1&2:
FT

Shuey
Yeo
Kelly
Gaff
Sheed
Redden
Brander

PT/C’s
None

We started having less mid rotations in 2019 with Leccas retirement and DV’s form and then concussion. Is this partly why we were struggling to ice games like we did in 2018? plus we were taller last year compared to 2018 playing both Allen and Waterman along with two rucks and the KPPs at either end.

 

[Keptindark]

Sick to death of hearing we are Managing Nic Nat...cant keep saying that anymore . Dont get me wrong very very good at Jumping and Palming the ball ( Thats about it ) thats all he does, start of the 3rd he was off the ground within 3 mins of starting !!! Whereas Witts did his knee in Round 1 and was going to be out for a while and he Shouldered the whole ruckwork for the Suns and played 89%. Please give me a spell on this managing excuse for Nic Nat.

Yeo looked very annoyed he was getting towelled up by a 2nd gamer and refused to chase and kicks the ball to no one every time, Small forward are very good at running forward to OPEN space but dont see them running too hard in busy traffic.

Thats just my opinion but surely you die hard Eagles supporters agree with the Nic Nat managing now.

Commentators saying unusual for the Eagles being in the hub.. Yes it is I can understand if the game was the 4th in the Hub but it was their first so flyiong over a few days earlier is no different to any other time they fly to the Gold Coast.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Simmo on Naitanui's retirement game - "We're asking fans to be patient, we aren't expecting much from him. He's coming off an injury and we'll have to manage his minutes.."

 

[FKASC]

Have been a bit MIA over the past couple of months, I hope you have all been keeping well both physically and mentally.

Well what a complete sh*t show that was on Saturday. I’m not going to bother making a negatives list as they’ve mostly been covered. But will say, I’m not panicking (just yet) given the lads have just packed up their lives and moved to the other side of the country this week. Just looked incredibly flat, heavy legged and disinterested. And of course struggled to handle the slippery conditions again

I’ll try and come up with a few Positives but it’ll be tough.
+ Allen
+Shuey
+TK’s start
+ Pizza & Footy night made a long awaited return.

One thing I’m interested in getting others opinions on is this.

I’ve noticed that we seem to lack mid rotations. We don’t have any pinch hitters in the Current 22 since losing LeCras, Rioli & Venners over the past two seasons and we’re still playing the same amount of Mids (7) as we have over the past two seasons. So are the mids tiring? Resulting in poor i50s and forward press and allowing the oppo mids/HB’s to create plays resulting in oppo i50s? Only Jetta, Duggan, Nelson & Ah Chee currently in the 22 have midfield experience at AFL/WAFL level, but none of them have provided a chop out in the first two rounds (that I can recall)

2018
Full time mids:

Shuey
Yeo
Gaff
Sheed
Redden
Masten
Hutchings

Part time/casuals:

LeCras
Rioli
Venables

2019:
FT

Shuey
Yeo
Gaff
Sheed
Redden
Masten
Hutchings

PT/C’s
Rioli
Venables (concussed RD9)

2020 RD 1&2:
FT

Shuey
Yeo
Kelly
Gaff
Sheed
Redden
Brander

PT/C’s
None

We started having less mid rotations in 2019 with Leccas retirement and DV’s form and then concussion. Is this partly why we were struggling to ice games like we did in 2018? plus we were taller last year compared to 2018 playing both Allen and Waterman along with two rucks and the KPPs at either end.

There’s no excuse for not playing guys like Cripps and Duggan in the middle in stages. Hawthorn will rotate Breust, Puopolo and Burgoyne, Geelong rotated Parfitt, Narkle, Ablett etc, and it just makes them so much less predictable.

No reason why Cripps should not be playing the late Le Cras role.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

There’s no excuse for not playing guys like Cripps and Duggan in the middle in stages. Hawthorn will rotate Breust, Puopolo and Burgoyne, Geelong rotated Parfitt, Narkle, Ablett etc, and it just makes them so much less predictable.

No reason why Cripps should not be playing the late Le Cras role.

Can you imagine Cripps trying to get a clearance in those conditions? Bloke fumbles more than any other player in the side. It isn’t good enough for a small.

 

[omarlittle1]

Have been a bit MIA over the past couple of months, I hope you have all been keeping well both physically and mentally.

Well what a complete sh*t show that was on Saturday. I’m not going to bother making a negatives list as they’ve mostly been covered. But will say, I’m not panicking (just yet) given the lads have just packed up their lives and moved to the other side of the country this week. Just looked incredibly flat, heavy legged and disinterested. And of course struggled to handle the slippery conditions again

I’ll try and come up with a few Positives but it’ll be tough.
+ Allen
+Shuey
+TK’s start
+ Pizza & Footy night made a long awaited return.

One thing I’m interested in getting others opinions on is this.

I’ve noticed that we seem to lack mid rotations. We don’t have any pinch hitters in the Current 22 since losing LeCras, Rioli & Venners over the past two seasons and we’re still playing the same amount of Mids (7) as we have over the past two seasons. So are the mids tiring? Resulting in poor i50s and forward press and allowing the oppo mids/HB’s to create plays resulting in oppo i50s? Only Jetta, Duggan, Nelson & Ah Chee currently in the 22 have midfield experience at AFL/WAFL level, but none of them have provided a chop out in the first two rounds (that I can recall)

2018
Full time mids:

Shuey
Yeo
Gaff
Sheed
Redden
Masten
Hutchings

Part time/casuals:

LeCras
Rioli
Venables

2019:
FT

Shuey
Yeo
Gaff
Sheed
Redden
Masten
Hutchings

PT/C’s
Rioli
Venables (concussed RD9)

2020 RD 1&2:
FT

Shuey
Yeo
Kelly
Gaff
Sheed
Redden
Brander

PT/C’s
None

We started having less mid rotations in 2019 with Leccas retirement and DV’s form and then concussion. Is this partly why we were struggling to ice games like we did in 2018? plus we were taller last year compared to 2018 playing both Allen and Waterman along with two rucks and the KPPs at either end.

If they are intent on keeping Ah Chee in the forward line, surely he could provide a midfield rotation? Ditto Duggan from defence. Heck even give Ryan the odd run in there ala Willie.