Priority Picks fair?

[Joffaboy]

Originally posted by Deej
This says it all.

Don't you feel that any success you get from now might have a certain fabricated or cheapened feel to it? I don't feel that Carlton's wooden spoon in 2002 was as bad as you lot all made out. In an open system we would NEVER have fallen that hard. If we win a flag over the next 5 years it will have been aided by the acquisition of Walker and that saddens me. I want Carlton to win on their own 2 feet, not aided from AFL handouts. I don't respect Brisbane's flags anywhere near as much as i do Hawthorn's flags in the 80's. I've said it before, any success or failure in this system is worth about 1/100th of what it was worth in an open system.

This says it all about your attitude.

No our success is not cheapened at all. People like you would like to because you just cant buy premierships like you used to. You cant cheat the SC like you used to etc etc.

If you dont like the rules, bring a case against the AFL's draft and SC rules in court as a restraint of trade. See how it stands up. If that dont work you are free to follow another code or comply with the rules. Really quite simple.

Our club has been well run in the past three years. It is culminating in our current success both on and off the field.

And as the old saying goes, the winners can laugh, everyone else can please themselves.

No our success is hard earned, the only cheapening is from people with sour grapes in their mouths. Do you fit that category Deej?

 

[Ari]

Originally posted by feher
you would hope they would climb up the ladder after more then 7 years being out of the finals wouldn't you? i fail to see what that proves, why don't you show us what they did between those years.

Better still I will tell you what they did.

They went about building a team.... some of that based on key PP's they received. Do you "honestly" believe that without the handout players they would be on top of the ladder right now?

The topic of discussion is not whether or what the PP's has meant to St Kilda.... the answer to that is the statistical and factual information which exists. The topic here is whether or not it's fair on other clubs. There are 16 clubs in the comp, not 1.

http://allthestats.com/stats/ladposnseas.asp?yrfm=2000
http://allthestats.com/stats/ladposnseas.asp?yrfm=2001
http://allthestats.com/stats/ladposnseas.asp?yrfm=2002
http://allthestats.com/stats/ladposnseas.asp?yrfm=2003
http://allthestats.com/stats/ladposnseas.asp?yrfm=2004

 

[Weaver]

Originally posted by Deej
Are you trying to say a bloke from Frankston will always be a better footballer than a bloke from Mildura? What rubbish, it's totally random where good footballers come from. Dunstall came from Qld.

I am suggesting that if one zone has twice the population of another it is not unreasonable to presume that it is twice as likely to produce top players.

I would also suggest that a kid in Frankston is more likely to benefit from training squads, rep games, inter-school comps etc. Also would find it easier to make it to under-19 games etc than a kid in Ouyen.

Beyond all that the suggestion that we once had an 'open' system which was fair to all is a myth. The current system may not be fair, but it more fair than anything that went before.

 

[feher]

Originally posted by Ari
Better still I will tell you what they did.

They went about building a team.... some of that based on key PP's they received. Do you "honestly" believe that without the handout players they would be on top of the ladder right now?

if not this year, then i would have said between next or the year after, all they got was a slight help up the ladder.

The topic of discussion is not whether or what the PP's has meant to St Kilda.... the answer to that is the statistical and factual information which exists. The topic here is whether or not it's fair on other clubs. There are 16 clubs in the comp, not 1.

other clubs can go out and get them, it isn't one rule for the saints and dockers, its the same for all clubs. It doesn't matter what kinda of sys. you put in place, if its a lottery for the top picks, then its still better to be at the bottom to get a better chace to get the first pick, at the end of the day, do you have any better solution that doesn't involve keeping the top clubs always being at the top? and helping the bottom clubs up, that is after all what the system is there to do!

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Fred
You obviously forget how North got their first flag.
Money.

But Fred, North were a poor club who had a sensational administration who raised that money that was used to buy the right players. The most relevant point in the context of your money wins theory is that they were a long long way from the rich clubs but did very well off the field. It is about administration Fred not bank balances. Money probably means more now because clubs like Collingwood know they will always survive but clubs like the Dogs know they can never ever be more than one of the poorest clubs reliant on the AFL for survival. They can never do what Hawthorn did.

 

[Yardie]

At the moment I'm all for priority picks!

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by Joffaboy
No our success is not cheapened at all. People like you would like to because you just cant buy premierships like you used to. You cant cheat the SC like you used to etc etc.

It's such a copout to say certain clubs bought flags yet not comment on the other clubs who spent just as much money but didn't win anything at all.

Not one club has ever bought a premiership, ever. Plenty of clubs have spent squillions and come up short. StKilda even. When the Saints recruit interstaters they get Narkle and McAdam and god knows how many other duds, some high priced (who was silvio foschini???)

Carlton go get Kenny Hunter and the Buzz. Money did this? I don't think so joffaboy. You and everyone else who thinks this (probably the majority) live in la la land.

 

[garth p]

Originally posted by Mead
Contrast the current situation of St Kilda with that of Essendon, Kangaroos or West Coast- losers are rewarded, triers get nothing.

Either your a brain dead FW, or a devious liar. the Saints have actually ever only had two priority picks. They drafted kossi and X Clarke with those picks.

Your team west Coast has had far more draft assistance than the Saints could ever dream of getting.

Coupled with that is the fact that you also drafted Sampi with a priority pick, and it is a bit rich saying that triers get nothing.

 

[TasSaint]

You people seem to suggest that we have gone out and thrown games. This is crap. Saints management went along a path of recruiting youth and allowing them to play in their positions. The players were trying their hardest.

A question for the knockers. What would be the point in the saints recruiting old hacks just to help fill in positions?

This is good management under the current rules not being crap. Just giving a fair relection on where development was really up to.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by TasSaint
This is good management under the current rules

Yes this i will agree with.

UNDER CURRENT RULES

 

[garth p]

Originally posted by Deej When the Saints recruit interstaters they get Narkle and McAdam and god knows how many other duds, some high priced (who was silvio foschini???)

[/B]

Silvio was a fine young footballer, cut down is his prime by terrible shoulder injuries. Should have been one of the greats.

 

[Ari]

Originally posted by TasSaint
A question for the knockers. What would be the point in the saints recruiting old hacks just to help fill in positions?

You have achance of winning games and don't waste valuable playing time with your other 2/3'rd of the team.

Essendon recruited Murphy and Allen from Carlton this year because they had holes to fill and these guys could do it. It's all about winning games, all the time.... and absolutely nothing else.

 

[Joffaboy]

Originally posted by Deej
It's such a copout to say certain clubs bought flags yet not comment on the other clubs who spent just as much money but didn't win anything at all.

Not one club has ever bought a premiership, ever. Plenty of clubs have spent squillions and come up short. StKilda even. When the Saints recruit interstaters they get Narkle and McAdam and god knows how many other duds, some high priced (who was silvio foschini???)

Carlton go get Kenny Hunter and the Buzz. Money did this? I don't think so joffaboy. You and everyone else who thinks this (probably the majority) live in la la land.

It is all perception Deej. The perception is that the moneyed clubs like Carlton has bought key players over the years. Fact or not? We could argue for 10 pages and still would not convince the other.

It can also be said not one club has won premierships from priority picks as easily as nobody won flags from money (What about North in the 70's???).

Point is that the Saints admin for years were incompetent, no argument.

Under AFL rules you cant just be continually bad as far as admin goes or the AFL is all over you like a rash. With these rules the current Saints admin has cleaned up the incompetency, has turned around the finances, have awoken the dormant Saints supporter base and are absolutely flying (ATM).

Has this whole culture shift been caused because of a couple of high draft picks? or is it the enviroment that has allowed the Saints to work hard and prosper? I believe the latter. Why cant you believe the Saints admin has turned the place around? All the KPI's show that that is the case.

Look you dont like the current system, i reckon it is great for national Competition. I dont really care if a few disgruntled "traditional" clubs supporters bemoan the loss of the good old days.
I and the vast majority of footy fans love the fact that strugglers like the Saints and Freo are forging ahead. Too bad you can't because of you own reasons.

 

[TasSaint]

no its about winning premierships. The players were trying to win the games. They just wernt trying to fool themselves about where they were at in comparison to the top sides. How about some of the other sides stop kidding them selves and go along a path of real rebuilding instead of whinging that they should be able to win a flag all the time.

for example if richmond fans actually thought their team was building to somthing instead of tryin to make silk out of sh*t do you think teir fans may be a bit less upset.

It is true it is all about good administration of the club and right now stkilda is top in this area

 

[garth p]

Originally posted by SurreyBlue
Sorry we have DIGNITY.

As mentioned before.....not many teams are prostitutes like StKilda.

Well, the members of some clubs, shouldn't throw stones, seeing that their house is made of glass.

 

[garth p]

Originally posted by SurreyBlue
Is that before or after your administration and coaches came out and made statements like "we will stay at the bottom of the ladder to receive top picks" just to ride the wave back up.

Sorry no hard work - NO RESPECT. Win as much as you like, you will still be branded LOSERS.

Just exactly when did anyone at the saints say that.


They did and said exactly the opposite. It was only the hard won draw over the Swans that stopped a third PP and ensured that the Roos got Wells and not the Saints.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Deej
Not one club has ever bought a premiership, ever.

At the very least North did in 1975.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by Joffaboy
It is all perception Deej. The perception is that the moneyed clubs like Carlton has bought key players over the years. Fact or not? We could argue for 10 pages and still would not convince the other.

Fact, yes that is the perception, I flagged that though by saying the majority believed it, or did you miss that part?

Originally posted by Joffaboy
It can also be said not one club has won premierships from priority picks as easily as nobody won flags from money (What about North in the 70's???).

Point is that the Saints admin for years were incompetent, no argument.

Under AFL rules you cant just be continually bad as far as admin goes or the AFL is all over you like a rash. With these rules the current Saints admin has cleaned up the incompetency, has turned around the finances, have awoken the dormant Saints supporter base and are absolutely flying (ATM).

Has this whole culture shift been caused because of a couple of high draft picks? or is it the enviroment that has allowed the Saints to work hard and prosper? I believe the latter. Why cant you believe the Saints admin has turned the place around? All the KPI's show that that is the case.

Look you dont like the current system, i reckon it is great for national Competition. I dont really care if a few disgruntled "traditional" clubs supporters bemoan the loss of the good old days.
I and the vast majority of footy fans love the fact that strugglers like the Saints and Freo are forging ahead. Too bad you can't because of you own reasons.

I think your clubs ability to force change was seriously aided by the draft 'handouts'.

I also view your stance in the last paragraph with some bemusment, given that it's the same sort of me me me attitude that you absolutely slate clubs like carlton for apparently having.

My view on the draft has absolutely nothing to do with who it benefits more, it has to do with what i believe is right. If Carlton win 20 spoons straight because we can't compete with corporate giants from perth and adelaide then you know what i will think? Work harder, there has got to be a way we can work smarter to beat or at least compete with these mobs. I hate handouts, I want us to walk on our own 2 feet. Your attitude is typical stkilda, mine is typical carlton. It's only the system that got you where your club sits today. Congratulations you're proof the evening up process works.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by MarkT
At the very least North did in 1975.

Rubbish they did. They went out and targetted certain footballers that gelled brilliantly and got them a flag or two, just as many high priced recruits across history have been abject failures.

 

[kahuna71]

Originally posted by Deej
Rubbish they did. They went out and targetted certain footballers that gelled brilliantly and got them a flag or two, just as many high priced recruits across history have been abject failures.

as have many high draft picks.

 

[kahuna71]

Originally posted by Deej
Fact, yes that is the perception, I flagged that though by saying the majority believed it, or did you miss that part?
I think your clubs ability to force change was seriously aided by the draft 'handouts'.

I also view your stance in the last paragraph with some bemusment, given that it's the same sort of me me me attitude that you absolutely slate clubs like carlton for apparently having.

My view on the draft has absolutely nothing to do with who it benefits more, it has to do with what i believe is right. If Carlton win 20 spoons straight because we can't compete with corporate giants from perth and adelaide then you know what i will think? Work harder, there has got to be a way we can work smarter to beat or at least compete with these mobs. I hate handouts, I want us to walk on our own 2 feet. Your attitude is typical stkilda, mine is typical carlton. It's only the system that got you where your club sits today. Congratulations you're proof the evening up process works.

nothing would make me happier, but if you did win 20 spoons straight your club would not exist any more. Luckily for you the AFL will have given you a chance to scrape your sorry asses off the bottom by allowing you first pick in the draft. Or would you rather go under than accept help?

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by kahuna71
as have many high draft picks.

It's not about the ones you get that fail, it's about the ones you targetted but can't get access to because you're patiently waiting in line for your turn to take your pick. ie greatest example of all time, Brendon Goddard.

 

[kahuna71]

Originally posted by Deej
It's not about the ones you get that fail, it's about the ones you targetted but can't get access to because you're patiently waiting in line for your turn to take your pick. ie greatest example of all time, Brendon Goddard.

you've only got yourselves to blame for that one. I'm bloody sick of this 'let them live or die' attitude. It's bull**** right wing politics that takes nothing into account except money. While we're at it, what the hell do single mothers do for the community, or disabled people? Give em nothing and if they can't make it well tough ****.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by kahuna71
Or would you rather go under than accept help?

You just don't get it. I would want my club to work harder and smarter so that we can beat them on our own merits. I would never voluntarily choose to take a handout in an open system. In this system yeah fine go for it might as well bend over and play the game just like everyone else does. See this is why i have said before that i want carlton to voluntarily fold. I'm sure I don't speak for many carlton fans by the way.

 

[kahuna71]

Originally posted by Deej
You just don't get it. I would want my club to work harder and smarter so that we can beat them on our own merits. I would never voluntarily choose to take a handout in an open system. In this system yeah fine go for it might as well bend over and play the game just like everyone else does. See this is why i have said before that i want carlton to voluntarily fold. I'm sure I don't speak for many carlton fans by the way.

so you'd rather see them go under then. smart.