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Originally posted by skipper kelly
from my experience most people that talk about it havent got it.
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Ok i'm broke who cares it's not the point. What does it matter how much money someone has it's the principle of the mindset that is important but low and behold you've all amazing completely missed that bit. Money is irrelevent rubbish so lets get back to the issue of hard work and determination and integrity in standing on your own 2 feet as compared to getting handouts in a cyclical system that ultimately is as predictable as the movements of the stars. why do people enjoy getting handouts then live as if it's not happening at all?
 
Originally posted by Deej
Glad you're acknowledging they were a gift you got for free, which is essentially a handout ala dole queue ala everything i've spoken about in this thread.
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absolutely we did, thank you very much, as would have any other club in our position. take responsibility for your choices, as you seem so willing to make everyone else do.
 
Seems the debate has well and truly moved from the system in operation to who has benefited and why. It doesn't matter whether St. Kilda will win a premiership because of draft picks or not. That is beside the point as far as I'm concerned as is whether my team will get a priority pick of an early draft pick. What concerns me is the environment created by a system where the worse you are the better your reward. I can’t think of any society or organisation in history that has operated successfully on that basis. Hell I can't even see how the AFL can claim any success given were so many clubs find themselves.

What concerns me most from the perspective of the competition is that there seems to me to be more disenchantment every year and less fervent passionate support for clubs every year.
 
Originally posted by MarkT
More in fact have probably been failures but that doesn't change anything. 10 failures don't invalidate the 1 success, The point is that in reality money does help but North got their money of what they needed by enterprise rather than "birthright". IMO what this, one of the few instances of successful cheque book recruiting, proves is that you need the admin before you need anything. North did prosper from buying talent who played for money but they used enterprise to engineer and fund it and they had a great administration in place to do it and to control it. It simply proves that even when money did buy a premiership it was only an ingredient. On many occasions clubs have had the money but not the management and they have faltered. Collingwood and Richmond in the 80's is the classic illustration.

FWIW I reckon Carlton in 1987 was close to a purchased flag with a huge influx of interstate talent plus a few recruits from other clubs. I don’t know why you get defensive about that though. The club was the best run club in the AFL at the time.
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And sometimes its not even the management - sometimes the "whizzbang superstars" don't turn the club around - Moore and Templeton, icke, nettlefold and Tanner ( and Brian Wilson) all came to Melbourne under Barrassi. Ho hum....

Your argument has enormous relevance to this argument. Draft picks, concessional, early or otherwise doesnt guarantee success.
 

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Originally posted by MarkT
What concerns me most from the perspective of the competition is that there seems to me to be more disenchantment every year and less fervent passionate support for clubs every year.
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Agreed.
 
Originally posted by Deej
Ok i'm broke who cares it's not the point. What does it matter how much money someone has it's the principle of the mindset that is important but low and behold you've all amazing completely missed that bit. Money is irrelevent rubbish so lets get back to the issue of hard work and determination and integrity in standing on your own 2 feet as compared to getting handouts in a cyclical system that ultimately is as predictable as the movements of the stars. why do people enjoy getting handouts then live as if it's not happening at all?
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never has the phrase 'get your hand off it' been more appropriate. you used money to explain your mindset and now it's 'irrelevant rubbish'. which are we to believe?
 
Originally posted by MarkT
What concerns me most from the perspective of the competition is that there seems to me to be more disenchantment every year and less fervent passionate support for clubs every year.
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Not true MarkT, I am enjoying this year as much as any I can remember so far.
 
Originally posted by JeffDunne
Not true MarkT, I am enjoying this year as much as any I can remember so far.
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me too. funny that the traditionally 'big' clubs aren't enjoying it so much now that us crappy clubs have turned it around. we really should know our place...
 
Originally posted by MarkT
Seems the debate has well and truly moved from the system in operation to who has benefited and why.
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Who benefits from this system will be a revolving door, saints and freo the 2 standouts at the moment, will change and carlton will in all likelihood be a beneficiary one day too, nothing surer. I agree that the system is the problem but the discussion has degenerated because certain beneficiaries refuse to acknowledge as much. Why? Because it would cheapen any future success they might enjoy.
 
Originally posted by Deej
Ok i'm broke who cares it's not the point. What does it matter how much money someone has it's the principle of the mindset that is important but low and behold you've all amazing completely missed that bit. Money is irrelevent rubbish so lets get back to the issue of hard work and determination and integrity in standing on your own 2 feet as compared to getting handouts in a cyclical system that ultimately is as predictable as the movements of the stars. why do people enjoy getting handouts then live as if it's not happening at all?
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So I can assume at the start of the year, you thought the Saints would win their first seven games, and the pre-season comp. Did you also think Melbourne would be 6-1?

Why has Brisbane not failed given they have had to trade into the top 10 picks? I can accept $400k more than Collingwood keeps them a couple of players, but why are Collingwood 16 and Brisbane still flag favorites?
 
Originally posted by MarkT
[ I can’t think of any society or organisation in history that has operated successfully on that basis.
. [/B]
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You'd better leave australia then - we operate on that system.

We have a progressive tax system that operates giving advantage to the lower income earners. you can argue that it doesnt help enough but the more you earn the more tax you pay. We have a social welfare systems that operates on helping the underpriviliged, the poor, the homeless the unemployed and the downtrodden.

What we call enlightened countries work on exactly that system.
 
Originally posted by nutbeennn
And sometimes its not even the management - sometimes the "whizzbang superstars" don't turn the club around - Moore and Templeton, icke, nettlefold and Tanner ( and Brian Wilson) all came to Melbourne under Barrassi. Ho hum....

Your argument has enormous relevance to this argument. Draft picks, concessional, early or otherwise doesnt guarantee success.
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And nor does money, so why not just have it opened up?
 

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Originally posted by Deej
Ok i'm broke who cares it's not the point. What does it matter how much money someone has it's the principle of the mindset that is important but low and behold you've all amazing completely missed that bit. Money is irrelevent rubbish so lets get back to the issue of hard work and determination and integrity in standing on your own 2 feet as compared to getting handouts in a cyclical system that ultimately is as predictable as the movements of the stars. why do people enjoy getting handouts then live as if it's not happening at all?
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Deej. Everyone gets handouts. First home buyers get handouts. Medicare. Superannuation. etc etc etc. Many neccessities are govt subsidised. There is nothing wrong with handouts. If you base your whole life on handouts, well thats your choice. But everyone recieves handouts in some form or another.

As for the AFL, the draft, salary cap concession and the draw are not handouts. They are part of the system and the system involves 16 clubs. Depending on what stage a club is at, determines how they benefit from the system. Just like in life, depending on what stage you are at, determines how you benefit from the system.
 
Originally posted by kahuna71
me too. funny that the traditionally 'big' clubs aren't enjoying it so much now that us crappy clubs have turned it around. we really should know our place...
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Says who? I am proabably a little less passionate than when I was a kid because I am older and have a lot more on my plate. What I am talking about is an overall assessment. I don't have less passion this year than I did last year as a Collingwood supporter. If anything I have more because next week means more than it did last year if that makes sense.
 
Originally posted by MarkT
Yeh, but you probably think Jeff Dunne deserved those State jumpers.;)
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You have instanty gained my respect for knowing who Jeff Dunne was. ;)

You're not suggesting he was our token state representative are you? :)
 
Originally posted by skipper kelly
Deej. Everyone gets handouts. First home buyers get handouts. Medicare. Superannuation. etc etc etc. Many neccessities are govt subsidised. There is nothing wrong with handouts. If you base your whole life on handouts, well thats your choice. But everyone recieves handouts in some form or another.

As for the AFL, the draft, salary cap concession and the draw are not handouts. They are part of the system and the system involves 16 clubs. Depending on what stage a club is at, determines how they benefit from the system. Just like in life, depending on what stage you are at, determines how you benefit from the system.
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And then some of guy gets exposed on ACA as a tripple dole recipient on compo cheating his ex out of maintenance and people want to hang him. Why? Because social justice is not the same welfare reliance.
 
Originally posted by kahuna71
never has the phrase 'get your hand off it' been more appropriate. you used money to explain your mindset and now it's 'irrelevant rubbish'. which are we to believe?
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AS I SAID, you didn't get my point. It had nothing to do with money. You totally missed what i was driving to say and became abusive and sarcastic and smart alec in return. And you say i'm the idiot, haha.
 
Originally posted by JeffDunne
You're not suggesting he was our token state representative are you? :)
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The old 1 player from every club rule got an average back pocket a few state games is all I'm saying.
 

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Originally posted by MarkT
And then some of guy gets exposed on ACA as a tripple dole recipient on compo cheating his ex out of maintenance and people want to hang him. Why? Because social justice is not the same welfare reliance.
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I think I agree with you. I'm not really referring to people on the dole, or better still people who cheat the dole, just that there are handouts directly and indirectly in all forms of life.
 
THe AFL has tried to make a competition as even as possible. Since the draft and salary cap they have succeeded in doing this. The sytem in place distributes the wealth of both players and money" more evenly across the teams. Gone are the days when the difference between one and 16 is the distance between the mercury and pluto ( no uranus jokes please)
This is the caring socially conscious AFL society we live in and i think it is a better product because of it.
 
Originally posted by Deej
AS I SAID, you didn't get my point. It had nothing to do with money. You totally missed what i was driving to say and became abusive and sarcastic and smart alec in return. And you say i'm the idiot, haha.
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does anyone get Deej's point?


Originally posted by Fred
BTW, have you ever thought your thinking on footy in general would be totally different had fate made you a Saint or a Dog?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope, I came from absolutely nothing and I'm going to be a millionaire and i've never got a single handout along the way and i haven't changed a bit still a down to earth person who loves a beer and i'm no better or worse than anyone else apart from those who want handouts to further themselves. I would always have this attitude mate it got nought to do with carlton.
 
Originally posted by skipper kelly
Deej. Everyone gets handouts. First home buyers get handouts. Medicare. Superannuation. etc etc etc. Many neccessities are govt subsidised. There is nothing wrong with handouts. If you base your whole life on handouts, well thats your choice. But everyone recieves handouts in some form or another.

As for the AFL, the draft, salary cap concession and the draw are not handouts. They are part of the system and the system involves 16 clubs. Depending on what stage a club is at, determines how they benefit from the system. Just like in life, depending on what stage you are at, determines how you benefit from the system.
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Difference is, this is sport, not society. If you didn't have welfare in society you'd have other problems present themselves, it's a strategy to minimise society's problems. You ever been to columbia? Madness. No welfare there. Maybe if they had welfare they'd have a few less probs, although obviously there's more wrong there than just no welfare you know what i mean. Without welfare you get people being killed for a pack of smokes. This sort of thing would never happen in afl. Society needs certain handouts just to make the streets safe(r). I don't totally think handouts should be scrapped in every corner of human existence, just in sport. Sport should be open competition in every way. (except maybe a salary cap, but that's only to save clubs like melbourne overspending and sending themselves broke trying to compete)
 
Originally posted by nutbeennn
You'd better leave australia then - we operate on that system.
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No we don't. I like many others pay taxes and that money gets used for a host of things. I in fact have benefited as a child from this as the child of a single mother. That is not what I am talking about. I have no problem with taxes in principle nor welfare, medical, etc system being funded out of those taxes. Nor do I have any problem with a handout to the needy. That has nothing to do with the debate about rewarding poor performance better than we reward good performance.

In a nutshell if we did operate like that there would be nothing because there would be hardly a taxpayer to pay the bills. The reward for effort is exactly what allows a social justice system to be funded.
Originally posted by nutbeennn
We have a progressive tax system that operates giving advantage to the lower income earners. you can argue that it doesnt help enough but the more you earn the more tax you pay. We have a social welfare systems that operates on helping the underpriviliged, the poor, the homeless the unemployed and the downtrodden.

What we call enlightened countries work on exactly that system.
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Can you tell me of any enlightened country that would pay a higher dole than average weekly earnings or that would offer free medical care above the average hospital standard for paying punters or that would allocate jobs on the basis of least suitability?
 

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