List Mgmt. Problems with our List going forward

[Hawthorn United]

Midfielders are the first group of players to receive all the accolades when teams are winning, but when losing, the defense or forwards cop the criticisms.

Our forwards were never the big pack marking players. They were allowed to excel with the forward entries we had. We hit up the lead and loose players around the 35-45m mark in the previous years. If we had the ball outside 50, we'd centre it and look for the short option.

I don't recall seeing any of that late in the season after we were on top, 2 games clear. We were bombing it in long hoping that we suddenly had a pack marking forward that we never knew about.

To me, this showed our midfield were losing control of the games. Unable to get the ball clear to our runners to be in space and deliver a pass under little pressure. We were constantly under pressure going forward and had to bomb away.

Our midfield is the area that needs youth to come through. Mitchell's decline in form, due to teams starting to tag him, coincided with our drop down the ladder.

Next year, we cannot have Hodge and Lewis in there.

 

[Goodo73]

We need someone like Fyfe or Bontempelli, those monster midfielders, or a key position forward, so many times till bombing it in with the hope that cyril or Poppy will take a speccy......

We'll just pop down to Monster Midfielders R Us and KPF Disposals shall we, and pick some up for 2017?

 

[Harper_Hawk]

Too difficult to say where we might finish at this point in time.If we get a fit JOM, and are able to get Mitchell also,our midfield improves. Add Burton. and Howe (I am a fan of him) and we are adding quality to our list. However, I still think we need a mobile ruckman who can take multiple grabs around the ground, as well as give our mids good supply at stoppages.

One thing that will help us is the fact our break starts now, and not in two weeks time as it has for the past four years. As I have said in other posts, we have had longer and harder seasons than the other clubs, and I believe this a factor in the drop off in form of some of our ageing heroes, Gibbo and Birch in particular.

There are so many things yet to factor in, such as who we lose, and whether we go for any mature age recruits, as well as the draw. However I would be very disappointed if we don't play finals again in 2017.

Do you think we can play finals next year,H_H?

That's a great summation. Yeh I do think we can make finals. But it does depend whether or not Clarkson can get them mentally up again to tackle a finals series and go deep. Your point about the break starting now for the boys will go some way to that. I think going so close to defeating Geelong with the kick after the siren will hurt them...as it does all Hawks supporters. That kick (not blaming Smith) has in some way shaped the finals series on our side of the draw.

What's worrying for me is that in the live games I watched at the G. It started with Melbourne after our run of 9 wins..was the ease at which Viney and their midfield sliced us up. It happened again with Collingwood and then the Bulldogs. This swarm of movement that Beveridge has created with his midfield is worrying for us..as it goes counter to how we play at the moment. Do we follow suit and emulate that as Clarkson said in his presser or do we continue along with our current gameplan?

 

[The Lemon]

2-4 after round 20.

The experienced can no longer help. We need to get games into kids. Lots of games.

 

[Paul007]

Midfielders are the first group of players to receive all the accolades when teams are winning, but when losing, the defense or forwards cop the criticisms.

Our forwards were never the big pack marking players. They were allowed to excel with the forward entries we had. We hit up the lead and loose players around the 35-45m mark in the previous years. If we had the ball outside 50, we'd centre it and look for the short option.

I don't recall seeing any of that late in the season after we were on top, 2 games clear. We were bombing it in long hoping that we suddenly had a pack marking forward that we never knew about.

To me, this showed our midfield were losing control of the games. Unable to get the ball clear to our runners to be in space and deliver a pass under little pressure. We were constantly under pressure going forward and had to bomb away.

Our midfield is the area that needs youth to come through. Mitchell's decline in form, due to teams starting to tag him, coincided with our drop down the ladder.

Next year, we cannot have Hodge and Lewis in there.

Great summation. Not sure what happened to Mitchell, he has never been fast, good decisions and skilled ball movement by hand and foot is where his brilliance is. How he gets tagged I don't know.

 

[Agent Smith]

We'll just pop down to Monster Midfielders R Us and KPF Disposals shall we, and pick some up for 2017?

That's sort of what we're doing with TV, actually. With Rough not expect back until June minimum, we really need a chop out up forward. Not only does he have the size to play KPF but he can actually kick a goal or two and even help out in the ruck. It's easy to see why we're into him. We're sniffing around another tall player down back as well, as all signs lead to Brand being out the door.

 

[grumbleguts]

I know that I can hit the like button here, but just have to say what a great and accurate (in my opinion) post you have made hawksfan71, right on the button, couldn't have put it better myself; a great in depth coverage!

I wonde rif you also know

Isn't the midfield the engine room of any successful side? Yes! Bring on Omeara and Mitchell from Gold Coast and Sydney!

That you can

Bucket loads of Scots Porridge Oats might do the trick for TOB.

reply to multiple posts

A big boy is also needed down in defense, the likes of Spang. What has happened to Brand, has he fallen out of favour or what?

at the same time

I think Vickery will fit into the forward role as long as he is willing to be coached to do that job, and as he is only 26, he still has some good playing years ahead of him.

rather than spamming the forum.

 

[Goodo73]

Mitchell's decline in form

Come again???

 

[Hawthorn United]

Come again???

He was still one of our better players, but I felt his influence on games were declining as teams were putting effort into stopping him. We were/are too reliant on him and Burgoyne getting us into winning positions.

 

[Taskmaster]

He was still one of our better players, but I felt his influence on games were declining as teams were putting effort into stopping him. We were/are too reliant on him and Burgoyne getting us into winning positions.

Addidng O'meara and T.Mitch will allow S.Mitch to go ape again!

 

[realhawk]

everyone here is on about this player or that player or who we need etc, the problem I see is that for the first time in a long time Clarkson and his coaches got it wrong, he wanted to play outside football to much , we simply cant win contested ball , minus 52 against the cats , minus 50 against the dogs, nowhere near good enough, hard nuts like Langford and Woody killing it at Box Hill and he goes and selects a soccer players like Hartung. even if Omera and tom mitchell come to the club unless the coaches have a mindset of winning the contest, we are not going to cut it against the top clubs.

 

[Hawkboy62]

With JOM, Titch & Ty we will a better team and should be competing for a 3rd to 8th place finish. Much will depend on which players we lose to satisfy the trade demands of Swans & Suns. However we will lack quality KPPs in attack & defence, at least one of each, plus back ups.

Unfortunately our key defenders seem to be in decline. I expect Chip to bounce back, Stratton is reliable and underrated, but Gibbo appears to have lost pace, Birchall's disposals have included costly clangers and Duryea has gone backward after his stellar finish to 2015.

IMO we lack quality all over the grounds. Quite a few promising C graders who are potential B graders. Fortunately the strength of our team has been more than the sum of it's parts. We will require Clarko and the support staff to rework our game plan and fitness regime to make sure we remain competitive, or get ahead of the curve again.

With some serious grunt in the middle the forwards such as Rioli, Gunners and Bruest should be able to score more readily, and importantly, be less fatigued when taking their shots, leading to greater accuracy. Burton could turn out to be a very classy big midfielder/ forward.

The Giants and the (Western) Braves appear to have better lists than us but we should competitive, but with about 10 teams on roughly the same level. We will need to draft astutely to try and re-invigorate our spine.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

2-4 after round 20.

The experienced can no longer help. We need to get games into kids. Lots of games.

The Problem is with our current crop of kids is that not many have A grade potential.

 

[Endorphin Machine]

That's sort of what we're doing with TV, actually. With Rough not expect back until June minimum, we really need a chop out up forward. Not only does he have the size to play KPF but he can actually kick a goal or two and even help out in the ruck. It's easy to see why we're into him. We're sniffing around another tall player down back as well, as all signs lead to Brand being out the door.

I thought Brand was pretty good in some of those games, maybe not so much against WCE.
It'd be a shame to let him go. Would he be leaving due to lack of opportunity or is his body letting him down?

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

everyone here is on about this player or that player or who we need etc, the problem I see is that for the first time in a long time Clarkson and his coaches got it wrong, he wanted to play outside football to much , we simply cant win contested ball , minus 52 against the cats , minus 50 against the dogs, nowhere near good enough, hard nuts like Langford and Woody killing it at Box Hill and he goes and selects a soccer players like Hartung. even if Omera and tom mitchell come to the club unless the coaches have a mindset of winning the contest, we are not going to cut it against the top clubs.

Surely if Rough was still playing and Cegs didn't go down the story would have been different.

I do agree with you though in that they realised you cannot play both Hartung and Hill in the same side when you are also forced to play guys like Sicily who cannot make a tackle stick or provide any physical pressure at a stoppage.

I think we also realised that we can not only continue to get flogged at contested ball on the ground but also in the air.

 

[Gralin]

everyone here is on about this player or that player or who we need etc, the problem I see is that for the first time in a long time Clarkson and his coaches got it wrong, he wanted to play outside football to much , we simply cant win contested ball , minus 52 against the cats , minus 50 against the dogs, nowhere near good enough, hard nuts like Langford and Woody killing it at Box Hill and he goes and selects a soccer players like Hartung. even if Omera and tom mitchell come to the club unless the coaches have a mindset of winning the contest, we are not going to cut it against the top clubs.

Russell and the medicos too hard a target these days eh

 

[Agent Smith]

I thought Brand was pretty good in some of those games, maybe not so much against WCE.
It'd be a shame to let him go. Would he be leaving due to lack of opportunity or is his body letting him down?

The Brand situation is an enigma. The fact he is still unsigned has me believing he's gonna be traded, but whether that's his request or our prerogative... who knows?

 

[Davo-27]

imo the quality of the list is as such (as of 2016 season) (over 27yrs old not added)

A-Graders (Star Player)
Shaun Burgoyne
Sam Mitchell
Jordan Lewis
Jarryd Roughead*
Cyril Rioli
Isaac Smith
Jack Gunston (25 yrs old)

B-Graders (Good Player)
Grant Birchall
James Frawley
Ben McEvoy
Ben Stratton
Luke Breust (26 years old)
Paul Puopolo
Brendan Whitecross
Jonathan Ceglar (26 years old)
James Sicily (22 years old)
Kaiden Brand (22 years old)
Ryan Burton (19 years old)
Bradley Hill (23 years old)
Luke Hodge
Josh Gibson

C-Graders (Fringe/Low Value 1st 22/ Untried Potential - Player)
Liam Shiels (25 years old)
Taylor Duryea (25 years old)
Ryan Schoenmakers (26 years old)
Daniel Howe (21 years old)
Kieran Lovell (19 years old)
Marc Pittonet (20 years old)
Kurt Heatherley (20 years old)
Blake Hardwick (19 years old)
Teia Miles (potential b-grader/ yet to debut) (20)
Jono O'Rourke (22 years old)
Jack Fitzpatrick (25 years old)
Will Langford (24 years old)
Billy Hartung (22 years old)

D-Graders (Below Average Player)
Matt Spangher
Angus Litherland (24 years old)
Tim O'Brien (22 years old)
Dallas Willsmore (21 years old)
Zac Webster (21 years old)

 

[threesixpio]

imo the quality of the list is as such (as of 2016 season) (over 27yrs old not added)

A-Graders (Star Player)
Shaun Burgoyne
Sam Mitchell
Jordan Lewis
Jarryd Roughead*
Cyril Rioli
Isaac Smith
Jack Gunston (25 yrs old)

B-Graders (Good Player)
Grant Birchall
James Frawley
Ben McEvoy
Ben Stratton
Luke Breust (26 years old)
Paul Puopolo
Brendan Whitecross
Jonathan Ceglar (26 years old)
James Sicily (22 years old)
Kaiden Brand (22 years old)
Ryan Burton (19 years old)
Bradley Hill (23 years old)
Luke Hodge
Josh Gibson

C-Graders (Fringe/Low Value 1st 22/ Untried Potential - Player)
Liam Shiels (25 years old)
Taylor Duryea (25 years old)
Ryan Schoenmakers (26 years old)
Daniel Howe (21 years old)
Kieran Lovell (19 years old)
Marc Pittonet (20 years old)
Kurt Heatherley (20 years old)
Blake Hardwick (19 years old)
Teia Miles (potential b-grader/ yet to debut) (20)
Jono O'Rourke (22 years old)
Jack Fitzpatrick (25 years old)
Will Langford (24 years old)
Billy Hartung (22 years old)

D-Graders (Below Average Player)
Matt Spangher
Angus Litherland (24 years old)
Tim O'Brien (22 years old)
Dallas Willsmore (21 years old)
Zac Webster (21 years old)

Hodge and Gibson are B Graders....

 

[Davo-27]

Hodge and Gibson are B Graders....

in 2016 yes......

 

[Slick]

Shiels should be up a group. Brings a hell of a lot to the team, shouldn't be grouped with who he is currently.

 

[Davo-27]

Shiels should be up a group. Brings a hell of a lot to the team, shouldn't be grouped with who he is currently.

imo when Shiels has good seasons he is a B-Grader, but when he has average seasons he is a C-Grader and at the moment he is a C-Grader..........

 

[William Wonka]

Addidng O'meara and T.Mitch will allow S.Mitch to go ape again!

Exactly.
In times past if a hard tag was put on Mitchell it just meant Hodge or Lewis was in for a day out.
(Sadly not so much late this season)

 

[Chubberson]

I'm interested to see where people think Lewis and Hodge play if Mitchell and a fit O'Meara play in 2017. They have been great warriors but the end is close IMO, both still skillful and willing but Hodgey is very slow and Lewis has lost his acceleration and some top end. Can't see them dropping Shiela. I believe we'll see a fair bit more change in the team next year and feel excited by what we'll see. Conor Glass, Burton, Lovell, Brand, Heatherly, Mitchell x 2 and JOM (maybe) then make or break years for JOR, TOB and a few others would indicate that there will be a lot of players desperate to stay in the AFL/transition into the next era and hopefully make us hungry for it next season.

Lovell is going to be good and needs games and will get them next year. If anything it ensures there is pressure to hold spots through the midfield. I think we will be around the mark.

 

[Kinghts 24]

I'm no expert on these maters, i only see games on TV living outside of Melbourne. However IMO it's no small coincidence that our decline in 2016 and our prospects for 2017 (a lower ladder finish, maybe bottom half of the 8) align to the fact we just haven't been earlier enough in the draft for so many years now. And many of our 1st round picks we've traded away, albeit successfully for players who have helped us win flags - i get that piece. The recruiters have done a great job of plucking players in later rounds and fitting them into the needs of the team , but i don't think that's long term sustainable.
The dilemma is, if you went to the draft and managed to select a JOM, Mitchell and Vickery...well you'd be pretty pleased with your drafting efforts! So in some senses that path seems like a good option.
I'd love to find a way to get those 3 in, and then trade away some of our B graders for some higher draft picks, get us back into the first round and get some genuine quality youngsters onto the list, as we did in 2004 with with 3 inside the top ten. *I know we're unlikely to get 3 in the top ten, but it would be great a couple of top 15 picks, and maybe that means a significant clean out of players who are not going to play a meaningful role in the build toward another genuine shot at a premiership.