Public vs Private School funding

[Ned_Flanders]

I mean maybe use Universal names then We don't have middle school in Australia
We have pre, primary, secondary and tertiary

If your argument is year 10 is sufficient say that

we do have some junior high's, but its pretty unusual

I know Mount Waverley have a junior and senior high, but i cant think of any others off the top of my head

assume cost is a factor (duplication of services and teaching skills and so on)

 

[Gralin]

we do have some junior high's, but its pretty unusual

I know Mount Waverley have a junior and senior high, but i cant think of any others off the top of my head

assume cost is a factor (duplication of services and teaching skills and so on)

we had that out our way, a junior and senior campus for about 5 minutes 20+ years ago

but middle school doesn't mean anything specifically to people here I don't reckon

 

[Suspense]

This is correct. We have an education system that wastes a fortune forcing the vast bulk of people down a single, unattainable career direction. 30% of Australians go to university and what perecentage of those from the public system? Yet here we go with a public system wholely set up to prepare and select students for university study that only a fraction will obtain. This fails the vast bulk of people who were never going down that path who end up wasting a couple of years at school just because they have to be there, and drags down the prospects of those who have legitimate aspirations for uni study having to try to learn amongst those who aren't interested.

Nonsense. Students can start pursuing vocational pathways via VCAL, VET, SBAT as early Year 10.

Prior to Year 10, school is focused on learning the fundamentals of Reading Writing, Math and Humanities, which students need regardless of whether they are 'academically inclined' and getting to experience a range of different subjects to explore areas of interest to help guide their later pathways.

Is it wise to not teach probability or basic financial literacy to a 14 year old because they "don't want to be there"?

 

[Suspense]

We're not talking primary or even middle school, where the fundamentals are taught. We're talking about secondary school and if kids haven't learnt the basics by then, then the system needs an overhaul.

If middle school (Year 7 to 9) are where the fundamentals are taught, students can be on a vocational pathway as early as Year 10 which is the start of senior school. I work in a senior leadership team in a public school and we do a mountain of work trying to identify which students would be better suited to a vocational pathway throughout Years 9 and 10.

Schools are positively incentivised to move 'non-academic' students into vocational pathways (and away from traditional VCE) - as these disengaged students will disrupt the learning environment and ultimately bring down the school's VCE results. This leads to less enrolments, less VCE subjects available, less funding etc. At 17 years old (Year 11), you can pretty much tell a disruptive student that they need to buy-in to the academic requirements of VCE or they will need to find another place to go. You can't have that conversation with a middle schooler.

The reasons why all of this isn't as simple as you think are:

• some students at this age are still quite unsure of their preferred pathway as they are still exploring their interests - this means they continue in an academic stream to keep their options open - even though they may eventually be better suited to a vocational pathway
• for schools that don't offer VCAL, some students prefer to remain with their friendship group doing VCE at their current school - even though they may be better suited to VCAL pathway elsewhere
• some parents are resistant to their child pursuing a vocational pathway and insist they remain in VCE - even though they may be better suited to VCAL
• often school disengagement at senior school isn't about 'vocational vs academic inclination' - but personal wellbeing issues that require counselling and support

 

[Gralin]

I also don't like the identify and encourage students that will bring our VCE scores down part

 

[Suspense]

I also don't like the identify and encourage students that will bring our VCE scores down part

I can't speak to Private schools, but at our public school there isn't any discussion about students "bringing down the VCE scores". The discussion for these students is focused on them, their interests, and whether they themselves would be better suited to pursuing a vocational pathway such VCAL rather than remain in VCE and be forced, against their will, to learn about the production of haploid gametes from diploid cells by meiosis.

 

[Gralin]

I can't speak to Private schools, but at our public school there isn't any discussion about students "bringing down the VCE scores". The discussion for these students is focused on them, their interests, and whether they themselves would be better suited to pursuing a vocational pathway such VCAL rather than remain in VCE and be forced, against their will, to learn about the production of haploid gametes from diploid cells by meiosis.

Hey i did VCE and wasn't forced to learn that.
But yeah I've got a family member who has been to school more days this year doing their VCAL than they did last year when they were meant to be at school full time

 

[Carn The Berries]

I can't speak to Private schools, but at our public school there isn't any discussion about students "bringing down the VCE scores". The discussion for these students is focused on them, their interests, and whether they themselves would be better suited to pursuing a vocational pathway such VCAL rather than remain in VCE and be forced, against their will, to learn about the production of haploid gametes from diploid cells by meiosis.

This is similar in the private system (at least in my experience across a few schools). Schools are moving away from even making reference to academic outcomes in their student objectives, the focus is about preparing students for life after school, regardless of what that looks like.

VCAL programs are becoming so popular that they are oversubscribed in some instances. There are also applied learning programs at senior secondary, which is attached to the VCAL program (and diverges from the traditional VCE learning framework).

 

[Baltimore Jack]

 

[Sttew]

but middle school doesn't mean anything specifically to people here I don't reckon

It would in the private system where studies have recognised the need to separate the three groups, as occurs in the USA and other countries.

 

[Balls In]

People keep talking about classism when talking about this issue but really, what is the juxtaposition between "class" and reality? Private schooling is a far superior and those students have far higher academic prospects. That's the reality. That is what people are paying a small fortune for. The "classism" would be if we suggested those students are smarter than the great unwashed. I haven't suggested that (although there's probably some truth to that as well frankly). It boils down to where the sweet spot is for funding. Funding of private schools will give you more kids going through university and having professional careers. Funding of public schools will give you a greater mass of people attaining a basic education. In terms of professional outcomes though, I reckon a kid coming surviving a public system and going to uni will often do better professionally as they are more grounded and practical exponents than the private school kids.

 

[Gough]

My school had a junior middle and senior school with the senior campus being sort of pre university with small study groups and lectures, no bells and free periods, basically treating students as young adults which obviously being sixteen year old lads we abused as much as possible.

 

[Kyptastic]

People keep talking about classism when talking about this issue but really, what is the juxtaposition between "class" and reality? Private schooling is a far superior and those students have far higher academic prospects. That's the reality. That is what people are paying a small fortune for. The "classism" would be if we suggested those students are smarter than the great unwashed. I haven't suggested that (although there's probably some truth to that as well frankly). It boils down to where the sweet spot is for funding. Funding of private schools will give you more kids going through university and having professional careers. Funding of public schools will give you a greater mass of people attaining a basic education. In terms of professional outcomes though, I reckon a kid coming surviving a public system and going to uni will often do better professionally as they are more grounded and practical exponents than the private school kids.

All the research suggests that paying for private school does nothing to improve a students academic outcomes. If you took all those private school kids and put them into the public system they would stil be getting the same academic results and be able to get into the same institutions that they do.

Going to private school won’t make a difference to your kid’s academic scores

There is endless debate about whether private schools add value to students’ academic results. But research consistently shows when socioeconomic factors are taken into account, this is not the case.

theconversation.com

 

[Balls In]

All the research suggests that paying for private school does nothing to improve a students academic outcomes. If you took all those private school kids and put them into the public system they would stil be getting the same academic results and be able to get into the same institutions that they do.

Going to private school won’t make a difference to your kid’s academic scores

There is endless debate about whether private schools add value to students’ academic results. But research consistently shows when socioeconomic factors are taken into account, this is not the case.

theconversation.com

I notice that assessment includes an adjustment based on "socio economic" background of the students. Not sure how they do that (dubious) however I get that a clever kid from a good family could succeed under both systems.

 

[Carn The Berries]

How many more times is this going to be posted without context or explanation? There has been no change to the mechanisms for calculating public school funding and the evidence of the last couple of years shows that actual funding has been both higher and lower than what is projected in prior budgets (reflecting that the variables in the funding model can differ on an actual vs. forecast basis).

Federal funding for public schools is still forecast to increase at a higher rate than federal funding for non-government schools over the budget estimates. Haven't seen that being promoted by the AEU as yet.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

How many more times is this going to be posted without context or explanation? There has been no change to the mechanisms for calculating public school funding and the evidence of the last couple of years shows that actual funding has been both higher and lower than what is projected in prior budgets (reflecting that the variables in the funding model can differ on an actual vs. forecast basis).

Federal funding for public schools is still forecast to increase at a higher rate than federal funding for non-government schools over the budget estimates. Haven't seen that being promoted by the AEU as yet.

One Million

 

[Carn The Berries]

One Million

There are soooooo many avenues for attacking the government in the lead up to the election, why would the AEU stick their noses in and mis-represent facts when there is no need? All it does is create an unnecessary target for anyone who wants to draw a union-ALP linkage and try to show that they are dishonest.

Just keep your mouth shut and let ScoMo dig his own grave instead of trying to make a case that isn't there. Self-sabotage is pretty much the only thing the Prime Minister is doing well at the moment.

 

[Gethelred]

How do you know it isn't?

Proving a negative?

Tell me, have you heard of the phrase, 'burden of proof' before?

 

[Gralin]

I notice that assessment includes an adjustment based on "socio economic" background of the students. Not sure how they do that (dubious) however I get that a clever kid from a good family could succeed under both systems.

this isn't about class
article showing it is
that article is wrong

the data shows that private vs public isn't the key difference maker in academic performance

this article is just one example of that

 

[Carn The Berries]

this isn't about class
article showing it is
that article is wrong

the data shows that private vs public isn't the key difference maker in academic performance

this article is just one example of that

So is the article wrong or right? You seem to be suggesting it is simultaneously both?

 

[Gralin]

So is the article wrong or right? You seem to be suggesting it is simultaneously both?

would it help you if I told you the first three lines were not me but two other posters

 

[Carn The Berries]

would it help you if I told you the first three lines were not me but two other posters

It sure would - Appreciate the clarification

 

[Sttew]

Proving a negative?

Tell me, have you heard of the phrase, 'burden of proof' before?

Yes. We aren't talking about a crime or civil matter here. It's just a discussion, and frankly I couldn't be ff'ed trying to prove a point that is neither her nor there.

 

[Gethelred]

Yes. We aren't talking about a crime or civil matter here. It's just a discussion, and frankly I couldn't be ff'ed trying to prove a point that is neither her nor there.

Proving a negative is nigh impossible without omnipresence; it's why the burden of proof is on you for making the claim. If you cannot be ****ed demonstrating why your claim cannot be dismissed without evidence, then others can dismiss your claim without evidence.

'Can't be ****ed to prove a point' = intellectual laziness.

 

[Sttew]

Proving a negative is nigh impossible without omnipresence; it's why the burden of proof is on you for making the claim. If you cannot be f’ed demonstrating why your claim cannot be dismissed without evidence, then others can dismiss your claim without evidence.

'Can't be f’ed to prove a point' = intellectual laziness.

Right!!!! Are you the thought Gestapo?

Can't be f'ed proving a minor point that is irrelevant to the main topic of discussion