Play Nice Random Chat Thread: Episode III

[Kangaroos4eva]

Tell me I'm wrong

I’m happy living in the matrix.

 

[Val Keating]

All the libertarian buttresses in the world account for very little in a system that continually rewards the highest functioning psychopaths.

Spose we can be grateful they can’t do anything when they get to the top because they’re suffocated by bureaucrats.

Funnily when I read your statement, I read the last word as sycophant.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Spose we can be grateful they can’t do anything when they get to the top because they’re suffocated by bureaucrats.

Funnily when I read your statement, I read the last word as sycophant.

Plenty of those in the bureaucracy.

 

[Sopwiths North]

Good grief:




He blamed the rain, and the teleprompter for this one.

I think what always annoys me the most about the U.S. is that they just assume everybody wants to be like them. It's like they think they're God's gift. It just doesn't ever occur to them that it could be otherwise.

Trump is pretty much that delusion personified. And in a weird way, I feel like the country is having a mirror held back on itself under him. And it's causing a chunk of the country to wake up and realise just how appalling they look.

Mind you, a whole swath are still completely blind, and ramped up more than ever under him. (The ones who believe in the great airports of the Revolutionary War would be my guess.)

Never change, America.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Good grief:




He blamed the rain, and the teleprompter for this one.

I think what always annoys me the most about the U.S. is that they just assume everybody wants to be like them. It's like they think they're God's gift. It just doesn't ever occur to them that it could be otherwise.

Trump is pretty much that delusion personified. And in a weird way, I feel like the country is having a mirror held back on itself under him. And it's causing a chunk of the country to wake up and realise just how appalling they look.

Mind you, a whole swath are still completely blind, and ramped up more than ever under him. (The ones who believe in the great airports of the Revolutionary War would be my guess.)

Never change, America.

Milli Vanilli's Blame It On The Rain had more credibility.

On LG-H990 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Val Keating]

Good grief:




He blamed the rain, and the teleprompter for this one.

I think what always annoys me the most about the U.S. is that they just assume everybody wants to be like them. It's like they think they're God's gift. It just doesn't ever occur to them that it could be otherwise.

Trump is pretty much that delusion personified. And in a weird way, I feel like the country is having a mirror held back on itself under him. And it's causing a chunk of the country to wake up and realise just how appalling they look.

Mind you, a whole swath are still completely blind, and ramped up more than ever under him. (The ones who believe in the great airports of the Revolutionary War would be my guess.)

Never change, America.

Wait did he say airport?

 

[kangaspurs]

Kangaroos4eva Hey mate, on this topic, which is actually something I found most interesting when it came to my own studies in IR, I'm sure you're ready a lot about the whole United Fruit affair in Guatemala. Thoughts on that one, and the toppling of a democratic regime purely at the behest of a private enterprise? I personally found it incredible that something like that could happen back when I was a naive student, but I really rate your opinion on these things, even if I don't always agree.

 

[Sopwiths North]

Wait did he say airport?

It's inspired its own Twitter feed now too. Wasn't it you that always said how Trump gives us comedy gold?
Every single day.

#RevolutionaryWarAirportStories

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Kangaroos4eva Hey mate, on this topic, which is actually something I found most interesting when it came to my own studies in IR, I'm sure you're ready a lot about the whole United Fruit affair in Guatemala. Thoughts on that one, and the toppling of a democratic regime purely at the behest of a private enterprise? I personally found it incredible that something like that could happen back when I was a naive student, but I really rate your opinion on these things, even if I don't always agree.

I have not done a heap of primary research related to American activities in Guatemala, so grain of salt and all that.


The Truman administration was very 'gun-ho' when it came to determining where a state was a communist/social democrat/socialist state and that applied to Guatemala to an extent, as well as the corporate lobbying as you noted. I know in the Australian experience, the American leaders hated Curtin's and, more so, Chifley's full employment aims and strong adherence to the Sterling bloc. Some in the Truman administration even viewed Chifley as a socialist and they despised Evatt, but I digress.


The Guatemalan state's attempt to recover private land would have sent alarm bells ringing. The UF company and Dulles had strong linkages too, so his involvement in the affair is what I would call at least borderline corruption as he should have been removed from the process, as should several others. The whole corporate process of discrediting the Guatemalan government was really successful and very influential, but we know now that the fabricated report about the G government was largely full of exaggerations.

In sum, it was a perfect storm (of conditions) for United Fruit. The rise of MacCarthyism, the stronger anti-communist hardline of the Eisenhower administration, the nationalist (they would call socialist like) economic elements of Guatemala and the corporate ties all feed off each other at roughly the same time.

As for weighting the influences. I would say the consistent historical presence (or citing) of the re-interpretative Monroe Doctrine in most American involvements in South America and the continued US opposition to (even slightly) left-leaning nationalist groups (see the US reaction to the Indochina crisis in 1954 and the anti-colonial African nationalist movements) and the hardline anti-communist Eisenhower, means that political factors were the stronger influences.

Corporate lobbying in international relations is not what it used to be and has become a lot more covert (indirect) with US administrations (think US companies refurbishing Iraq, the military industrial complex for the US military and the allies it supplies as well, etc).

The 1945 to 1969 period was just a crazy period for international relations. The US was very anti-colonial, but often opposed nationalist anti-colonial movements. I always bring it back to the Monroe doctrine to get my head around some of their actions. It really took until the Sino-Soviet border war in 1969 for the US to realise that the various socialist states were mostly nationalist in their origins and most had their own agenda outside the Soviet Union.

 

[Themanbun]

I see a few medical schools here in Aus have removed the GAMSAT requirement in lieu of psychometric testing and GPA.

Tempted to apply but not sure I could tolerate leaving my job for minimal income for 4-6 years. I'm aged 27 now, married, and looking to move forward with my life. On the other hand, once you get out the other end you're on a wicket that would more than make up for it and can be taken all over the country.

I always wanted to be a doctor, but our high school was underfunded and all the pre requisites were done by distance. So I went with law instead.

 

[Val Keating]

It's inspired its own Twitter feed now too. Wasn't it you that always said how Trump gives us comedy gold?
Every single day.

#RevolutionaryWarAirportStories

He does. He’s hilarious.

 

[ferball]

We wouldn’t have the current issue in Iran without what the CIA & Kermit Roosevelt did in 1953. Sure the US aren’t on their own but they lie about their motives. s**t, North Korea wouldn’t be what it is if the US & Russia didn’t just decide they could just divide it up between them.

Even look at their involvement in Venezuela.

Aussies are just lucky we’re on the right side of power and are willing to whore ourselves

Guatemala 1954. Iran 1953. Chile 1973. Australia 1975. Indonesia 1965. etc etc Some might say USA 1963 (and 65 + 68.) Probably more if I could be bothered dredging thru history.

 

[ferball]

All the libertarian buttresses in the world account for very little in a system that continually rewards the highest functioning psychopaths.

This is one of the smartest comments I've seen you make Tef.

I was genuinely thinking about it in the last two or three nights while talking to a mate about the greatest problems facing humanity and why, given so many people just want a peaceful trouble free life, things always seems so ****ed up. In the context of Chimp alpha males and why they are (pr seem) so compassionate, honest, fair and care for the people they lead.

Maybe we wouldn't have that problem if we all lived in smaller, more tribal social groups.

 

[ferball]

Milli Vanilli's Blame It On The Rain had more credibility.

On LG-H990 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Genuine LOL at that.

 

[ferball]

I have not done a heap of primary research related to American activities in Guatemala, so grain of salt and all that.


The Truman administration was very 'gun-ho' when it came to determining where a state was a communist/social democrat/socialist state and that applied to Guatemala to an extent, as well as the corporate lobbying as you noted. I know in the Australian experience, the American leaders hated Curtin's and, more so, Chifley's full employment aims and strong adherence to the Sterling bloc. Some in the Truman administration even viewed Chifley as a socialist and they despised Evatt, but I digress.


The Guatemalan state's attempt to recover private land would have sent alarm bells ringing. The UF company and Dulles had strong linkages too, so his involvement in the affair is what I would call at least borderline corruption as he should have been removed from the process, as should several others. The whole corporate process of discrediting the Guatemalan government was really successful and very influential, but we know now that the fabricated report about the G government was largely full of exaggerations.

In sum, it was a perfect storm (of conditions) for United Fruit. The rise of MacCarthyism, the stronger anti-communist hardline of the Eisenhower administration, the nationalist (they would call socialist like) economic elements of Guatemala and the corporate ties all feed off each other at roughly the same time.

As for weighting the influences. I would say the consistent historical presence (or citing) of the re-interpretative Monroe Doctrine in most American involvements in South America and the continued US opposition to (even slightly) left-leaning nationalist groups (see the US reaction to the Indochina crisis in 1954 and the anti-colonial African nationalist movements) and the hardline anti-communist Eisenhower, means that political factors were the stronger influences.

Corporate lobbying in international relations is not what it used to be and has become a lot more covert (indirect) with US administrations (think US companies refurbishing Iraq, the military industrial complex for the US military and the allies it supplies as well, etc).

The 1945 to 1969 period was just a crazy period for international relations. The US was very anti-colonial, but often opposed nationalist anti-colonial movements. I always bring it back to the Monroe doctrine to get my head around some of their actions. It really took until the Sino-Soviet border war in 1969 for the US to realise that the various socialist states were mostly nationalist in their origins and most had their own agenda outside the Soviet Union.

Edward Bernays invented the term Banana Republic to generate support for the coup. I often bring him up because he is a major influence on our society today.

The "private" land was owned by corporates and incredibly wealthy people and in many cases sat idly while people struggled for work or access to farm land.

Also Ho Chi Mihn claimed to be a nationalist fwiw (but we already started that discussion. And I'm about to go to a mates to watch the game so I may not reply to anything about it for a while.)

 

[Val Keating]

This is one of the smartest comments I've seen you make Tef.

I was genuinely thinking about it in the last two or three nights while talking to a mate about the greatest problems facing humanity and why, given so many people just want a peaceful trouble free life, things always seems so f’ed up. In the context of Chimp alpha males and why they are (pr seem) so compassionate, honest, fair and care for the people they lead.

Maybe we wouldn't have that problem if we all lived in smaller, more tribal social groups.

Absolutely. I mulled over that one for a while and couldn’t come up with a decent response.

 

[Themanbun]

This is one of the smartest comments I've seen you make Tef.

I was genuinely thinking about it in the last two or three nights while talking to a mate about the greatest problems facing humanity and why, given so many people just want a peaceful trouble free life, things always seems so f’ed up. In the context of Chimp alpha males and why they are (pr seem) so compassionate, honest, fair and care for the people they lead.

Maybe we wouldn't have that problem if we all lived in smaller, more tribal social groups.

You may be interested in some of the guild socialist and/or revolutionary syndicalist ideals of the early 20th century which tried to tackle this issue.

 

[Sopwiths North]

Absolutely. I mulled over that one for a while and couldn’t come up with a decent response.

ferbs makes a good point when he talks about maybe if we lived in smaller, more tribal groups. What the chimps don't have is a culture of consumerism. The need to own more, accumulate, have instant gratification. Chimps are tribal/war-like yes, but they don't collect stuff. They exist on what's around them, without wishing for more. We could learn a lot from that.

I'd say that climate change is the number one problem facing humanity, and the solution to that is partly to become smaller, to decrease the economy, not expand it. Hundred Mile Diet sort of thing. Community gardens. Less worry about how much stuff we have. Best case scenario, climate change forces our hand to become more peaceful. Worst case scenario, we become a George Miller movie. Our track record as a species says the latter is the more probable.

 

[kangaspurs]

Edward Bernays invented the term Banana Republic to generate support for the coup. I often bring him up because he is a major influence on our society today.

The "private" land was owned by corporates and incredibly wealthy people and in many cases sat idly while people struggled for work or access to farm land.

Also Ho Chi Mihn claimed to be a nationalist fwiw (but we already started that discussion. And I'm about to go to a mates to watch the game so I may not reply to anything about it for a while.)

I moved my post-grad area of study into Comms and in my PR-related units Bernays comes up a lot. Interesting dude, and obviously extremely intelligent.

 

[Val Keating]

ferbs makes a good point when he talks about maybe if we lived in smaller, more tribal groups. What the chimps don't have is a culture of consumerism. The need to own more, accumulate, have instant gratification. Chimps are tribal/war-like yes, but they don't collect stuff. They exist on what's around them, without wishing for more. We could learn a lot from that.

I'd say that climate change is the number one problem facing humanity, and the solution to that is partly to become smaller, to decrease the economy, not expand it. Hundred Mile Diet sort of thing. Community gardens. Less worry about how much stuff we have. Best case scenario, climate change forces our hand to become more peaceful. Worst case scenario, we become a George Miller movie. Our track record as a species says the latter is the more probable.

Not a bad point but chimps haven’t evolved to the extent humans have. Though they are still evolving. Chimps have started spear fishing.



We’re just further along then them. As they evolve their brains will change and so will their values. They don’t have a culture of consumerism because they haven’t reached that level yet. They do have primal hierarchy which, given enough time would lead them down the same road of status via consumerism that we now have.

Doesn’t really matter though because we’ll completely destroy the planet before evolution can do its thing.

 

[Sopwiths North]

Not a bad point but chimps haven’t evolved to the extent humans have. Though they are still evolving. Chimps have started spear fishing.



We’re just further along then them. As they evolve their brains will change and so will their values. They don’t have a culture of consumerism because they haven’t reached that level yet. They do have primal hierarchy which, given enough time would lead them down the same road of status via consumerism that we now have.

Doesn’t really matter though because we’ll completely destroy the planet before evolution can do its thing.

Shoot, you're right. I forgot all about all those Planet of the Apes movies I watched as a kid.

Haha, just kidding. Sort of. I've read a fair bit of Jane Goodall's stuff, and some chimps seem to have this eerie sort of vicious side to them that is so evocative of human dark sides. I don't recall that kind of thing being obserrved in any of Dian Fossey's or Birute Galdikas's stuff on gorillas and orangutans (that I've read).

But I agree that we will destroy the planet before any of that happens. Or, more likely, a great number of us will be taken out by some massive disease pandemic due to the groundwork being laid by severe climate change.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

You may be interested in some of the guild socialist and/or revolutionary syndicalist ideals of the early 20th century which tried to tackle this issue.

The Italian experiments with syndicalism are quite interesting.

 

[Flawed Genius]

I see a few medical schools here in Aus have removed the GAMSAT requirement in lieu of psychometric testing and GPA.

Tempted to apply but not sure I could tolerate leaving my job for minimal income for 4-6 years. I'm aged 27 now, married, and looking to move forward with my life. On the other hand, once you get out the other end you're on a wicket that would more than make up for it and can be taken all over the country.

I always wanted to be a doctor, but our high school was underfunded and all the pre requisites were done by distance. So I went with law instead.

Absolute prick of a test the GAMSAT is

Could never quite crack the maths or science sections

 

[ferball]

I see a few medical schools here in Aus have removed the GAMSAT requirement in lieu of psychometric testing and GPA.

Tempted to apply but not sure I could tolerate leaving my job for minimal income for 4-6 years. I'm aged 27 now, married, and looking to move forward with my life. On the other hand, once you get out the other end you're on a wicket that would more than make up for it and can be taken all over the country.

I always wanted to be a doctor, but our high school was underfunded and all the pre requisites were done by distance. So I went with law instead.

I'm 49. You should do it if you really want to. You've a lifetime ahead of you. You might need to plan to get around the income issue but 27 is a great age to start a new direction in your life.

 

[Val Keating]

JJ throwing up the white power sign. Glad he’s gone from Philly