Discussion Random Discussion

[gringo2011]

But there are people saying that, there are people that still want reparations for the supposed crimes of people we're distantly related too. But funnily enough, other cultures have lost wars too. Do you see Christians approaching Egypt and complaining about reparations for stealing Alexandria?

Casual racism isn't oppression. Racism is bad, yes; but it's not oppressive to be racist, you're just being an arseh*le.

I'd argue everyone gets essentially a fair go now, actually I'd go one step further and say the only people who don't get a fair go anymore in Australia are white people and immigrants who aren't part of these "oppressed groups". Indigenous and TSI people get significantly lowered requirements for university entry than Caucasians, Asians, Americans, South Americans etc. Same goes for immigrants from African countries, to varying degrees; housing, food, education, welfare etc are a benefit that simply isn't available to white people in the same conditions.

Anyway, I think we can all agree we want the same thing which is that everyone gets equal opportunity in life. I completely agree, it seems we have different opinions regarding how exactly that would be achieved but that's fair enough.

In the US there are a lot of people who are white starting to feel left behind and marginalised. If you come from those areas your unlikely to be ever going anywhere in life, there is despair and with out some kind of help from government it's unlikely to change. Just like in the Latrobe Valley the governments step in to train people and try to bring industry etc. The idea of getting indigenous people educated and trained at an advantage over others is that it starts to set an example for others to follow. Disadvantage becomes generational if you don't break the cycle and the more left behind and marginalised people feel the more feral and dysfunctional their lives get.

If you can break the cycle of disadvantage it can mean that it ends up saving money in the long run. I think most people just want to have a good life and not get left out of the system.

 

[Crusty Undies]

As useful as a two paragraph rant that confirms the original statement. No wonder.

It was a two paragraph discussion expanding on the initial statement I made. If I just said the first sentence with no further context it would be pointless and open to being misconstrued which is why I clarified. It was also not a rant. You disagreeing with something doesn't make it a rant.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

But there are people saying that, there are people that still want reparations for the supposed crimes of people we're distantly related too. But funnily enough, other cultures have lost wars too. Do you see Christians approaching Egypt and complaining about reparations for stealing Alexandria?

Casual racism isn't oppression. Racism is bad, yes; but it's not oppressive to be racist, you're just being an arseh*le.

I'd argue everyone gets essentially a fair go now, actually I'd go one step further and say the only people who don't get a fair go anymore in Australia are white people and immigrants who aren't part of these "oppressed groups". Indigenous and TSI people get significantly lowered requirements for university entry than Caucasians, Asians, Americans, South Americans etc. Same goes for immigrants from African countries, to varying degrees; housing, food, education, welfare etc are a benefit that simply isn't available to white people in the same conditions.

Anyway, I think we can all agree we want the same thing which is that everyone gets equal opportunity in life. I completely agree, it seems we have different opinions regarding how exactly that would be achieved but that's fair enough.

wow ... just wow...
we are talking about a system that saw the original inhabitants as a lesser person not just 300 years ago but as early as the 1960's ...
as i said you are living a sheltered life if you think there isnt oppression still today, i refer back to a TV show "is Australia Racist" where a example was shown where a white male was told to take a saw to a chain locking a bike to a post he was able to remove the chain and take the bike with no problem ... the exact same example was done but with an indig male, with in minutes there was security throwing the bloke down on the floor using eexcessive force assuming guilt for a crime that wasnt being commited .. no questions just detained ... this is every day for people of Indig decent..
a very close friend of mine is a aboriginal painter his work is hanging in the national gallery he is well spoken highly educated and one of the nicest people you will ever meet yet he still cant enter an IGA supermarket without having a shop attendant follow closely behind him...
my best friend a muslim born professional he is estranged from his religion and hasnt been a practicing Muslim for years but he happens to have his name being arabic muslim centric.. for nothing else but his name he is detained EVERY time he heads to the US by homeland security every time the last time for 6 hours .. why cause his name.... yes there is not public floggings there are no signs saying "no blacks" anymore (although i did come across one at a small country pub in regional queensland).. but there is still most certainly oppression around today ...

as for welfare benifits i think you may be getting your info from Reclaim Australia on that front ... a migrant or Refugee gets the exact same entitlement regardless of where they originated from ... as for costs of higher education being cheaper for indig students you are right thats not equality but i direct you to the below...

 

[Crusty Undies]

wow ... just wow...
we are talking about a system that saw the original inhabitants as a lesser person not just 300 years ago but as early as the 1960's ...
as i said you are living a sheltered life if you think there isnt oppression still today, i refer back to a TV show "is Australia Racist" where a example was shown where a white male was told to take a saw to a chain locking a bike to a post he was able to remove the chain and take the bike with no problem ... the exact same example was done but with an indig male, with in minutes there was security throwing the bloke down on the floor using eexcessive force assuming guilt for a crime that wasnt being commited .. no questions just detained ... this is every day for people of Indig decent..
a very close friend of mine is a aboriginal painter his work is hanging in the national gallery he is well spoken highly educated and one of the nicest people you will ever meet yet he still cant enter an IGA supermarket without having a shop attendant follow closely behind him...
my best friend a muslim born professional he is estranged from his religion and hasnt been a practicing Muslim for years but he happens to have his name being arabic muslim centric.. for nothing else but his name he is detained EVERY time he heads to the US by homeland security every time the last time for 6 hours .. why cause his name.... yes there is not public floggings there are no signs saying "no blacks" anymore (although i did come across one at a small country pub in regional queensland).. but there is still most certainly oppression around today ...

as for welfare benifits i think you may be getting your info from Reclaim Australia on that front ... a migrant or Refugee gets the exact same entitlement regardless of where they originated from ... as for costs of higher education being cheaper for indig students you are right thats not equality but i direct you to the below...

It's clearly different in different parts of Aus because I've never seen anything like what you're saying and I went to school with more people who weren't white than who were.

As for that Equity photo it's absolute bs. You aren't giving a stool to the short person, you're cutting the legs off at the knees of the tall one for the short one to stand on. Equity is the same shit that's currently leading to gender and colour quotas in governments.

The image is also exceptionally misleading because it implies everyone of one race starts at the same place, there are plenty of people of all colours and genders that have advantages and disadvantages, no one starts from the same place but everyone can get anywhere with enough work.

 

[StCicatriz]

But there are people saying that, there are people that still want reparations for the supposed crimes of people we're distantly related too. But funnily enough, other cultures have lost wars too. Do you see Christians approaching Egypt and complaining about reparations for stealing Alexandria?

Casual racism isn't oppression. Racism is bad, yes; but it's not oppressive to be racist, you're just being an arseh*le.

I'd argue everyone gets essentially a fair go now, actually I'd go one step further and say the only people who don't get a fair go anymore in Australia are white people and immigrants who aren't part of these "oppressed groups". Indigenous and TSI people get significantly lowered requirements for university entry than Caucasians, Asians, Americans, South Americans etc. Same goes for immigrants from African countries, to varying degrees; housing, food, education, welfare etc are a benefit that simply isn't available to white people in the same conditions.

Anyway, I think we can all agree we want the same thing which is that everyone gets equal opportunity in life. I completely agree, it seems we have different opinions regarding how exactly that would be achieved but that's fair enough.

yeah nah

have you lived in the states? how about worked there? like i said originally have you lived in remote areas in this country? or have you spoken with anyone who works in a community service type role like a doctor, nurse, welfare officer.

i dont think you have been exposed to where the issues are so i'm not suprised you have a very warped sense on what is occurring

 

[StCicatriz]

It's clearly different in different parts of Aus because I've never seen anything like what you're saying and I went to school with more people who weren't white than who were.

As for that Equity photo it's absolute bs. You aren't giving a stool to the short person, you're cutting the legs off at the knees of the tall one for the short one to stand on. Equity is the same shit that's currently leading to gender and colour quotas in governments.

The image is also exceptionally misleading because it implies everyone of one race starts at the same place, there are plenty of people of all colours and genders that have advantages and disadvantages, no one starts from the same place but everyone can get anywhere with enough work.

disagree with the last part. it implies its just effort based. lets use a football analogy. tom curren was a very hard worker, i'm sure he had visions of being an all australian brownlow medalist, but i dont think he's going to get there and i dont think its through lack of effort.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

It's clearly different in different parts of Aus because I've never seen anything like what you're saying and I went to school with more people who weren't white than who were.

As for that Equity photo it's absolute bs. You aren't giving a stool to the short person, you're cutting the legs off at the knees of the tall one for the short one to stand on. Equity is the same shit that's currently leading to gender and colour quotas in governments.

The image is also exceptionally misleading because it implies everyone of one race starts at the same place, there are plenty of people of all colours and genders that have advantages and disadvantages, no one starts from the same place but everyone can get anywhere with enough work.

sorry but the "work hard enough" is the Privileged battle cry... the fact is there are far less opportunities for some as there are for others.. i can tell you some ofthe hardest workers i know are working their guts out and are never getting ahead yet i know loads of people doing exceptionally well for themselves who are the laziest disinterested and unmotivated individuals going around..
yes there are lots who are below the poverty line who through their own actions and decisions find themself there ad seem content to not do anything to stop that but for the most part the guys i know who are struggling are working bloody hard at getting out of the struggle ... people sitting back and pointing the "well you can do anything if you work hard enough" line is just like saying to a person with depression "just cheer up"..... the fact is being less fortunate is very much a generational thing poor familys have poor kids who have poor kids who have poor kids it is a cycle that go's on and on and unfortunatly in the indig community the issue is tenfold.. so if you want to break that cycle then government need to help with that ... look in honesty i would much rather my taxs go to improving the chances of the lower class then it going to line the pockets of the rich ...
an example here in WA we have a small agricultural boarding school that has been pivotal in setting up kids from the country to getting an education equal to that of a kid in the city, this school is now finding itself on the brink of certain closure due to the government not recognising the importance of the school and pulling the funding .. but on the flip side of that we have a proposed new school being opened on the site of the old Subiaco oval area (a very rich suburb) this school is going to be state of the art best of everything for the local who can afford to live in that district .. so let me ask you this if two kids going to these two schools were to later have a desire to get into higher education what one would you say would have the best chance of getting in ? the kid who has gone to the state of the art school in the leafy green suburb or the kid who's school is fighting to stay alive ?

as for gender and colour quotas in government why the hell not have that... for generations its been the white male domain where even the best quality female poli couldnt get a look in as for an indig person far out in the 1960 some of them were not even allowed a vote let alone hold a place in parliment... if we are talking about the quallity drop by overlooking a male in a role, given the current quallity of males in parliment i dont think thats an issue.. we have had 200 years of men by default getting the job in parliment more recently we have got the token female in roles.. if we flip that on its head then thats great in my opinion

 

[Yawkey way]

Yeah, it's a hard one, we have never had a real race revolution and never really faced up to anything. In the US it's an obvious no go zone but we are kind of naive to it here. Like the Hey Hey It's Saturday black and white minstrel thing that Aussies also played dumb on, we just don't really get it. The stereo type dehumanised black person that is primitive and less evolved was perpetrated for a long time and took a lot of people a lot of fighting to reverse. We have a largely oppressed indigenous population that was so decimated that they have lost some of their fight and never held white people to account.

I think Knight probably truely didn't get the insensitivity of the imagery but I don't know if that's an excuse or if that's worse.... he's started doing more right wing cartoons probably on the newspapers orders to garner outrage.

Culturally insensitive,

wow ... just wow...
we are talking about a system that saw the original inhabitants as a lesser person not just 300 years ago but as early as the 1960's ...
as i said you are living a sheltered life if you think there isnt oppression still today, i refer back to a TV show "is Australia Racist" where a example was shown where a white male was told to take a saw to a chain locking a bike to a post he was able to remove the chain and take the bike with no problem ... the exact same example was done but with an indig male, with in minutes there was security throwing the bloke down on the floor using eexcessive force assuming guilt for a crime that wasnt being commited .. no questions just detained ... this is every day for people of Indig decent..
a very close friend of mine is a aboriginal painter his work is hanging in the national gallery he is well spoken highly educated and one of the nicest people you will ever meet yet he still cant enter an IGA supermarket without having a shop attendant follow closely behind him...
my best friend a muslim born professional he is estranged from his religion and hasnt been a practicing Muslim for years but he happens to have his name being arabic muslim centric.. for nothing else but his name he is detained EVERY time he heads to the US by homeland security every time the last time for 6 hours .. why cause his name.... yes there is not public floggings there are no signs saying "no blacks" anymore (although i did come across one at a small country pub in regional queensland).. but there is still most certainly oppression around today ...

as for welfare benifits i think you may be getting your info from Reclaim Australia on that front ... a migrant or Refugee gets the exact same entitlement regardless of where they originated from ... as for costs of higher education being cheaper for indig students you are right thats not equality but i direct you to the below...

Incredibly difficult topic, affirmative action is really just another form of discrimination which clearly in many instances hasn’t worked.

Intergenerational poverty is a huge and costly problem it should be addressed, it should be colour-blind and it should meet KPIs.

Some groups entering the country are housed if not immediately then as a priority, poor Australians can be in a queue for government housing in some instances for over a decade. Some would argue that it’s very generous treatment when it’s often straight into housing, straight onto Medicare and family benefits plus whilst there is a two year waiting list for other payments like Newstart special benefits are also often paid immediately. That to the best of my knowledge has nothing to do with country of origin so if that has been suggested it’s imo wrong.

I have a problem with the concept that racism is somehow exclusive to Caucasian people, it’s not. I also have a problem with a narrative that only looks at invasion and dispossession by largely European colonialists. Most countries have had waves of invasions by different groups and occupations that lasted so long assimilation must have occurred to some extent. Currently people only want to talk about cases in isolation and in a time frame most advantages to themselves.

Check indigenous groups in Japan for example there won’t be any talk of reparations there, look at Italy even England. I believe it’s a nonsense to talk of the US and Australia amongst others as living on stolen ground and really unhelpful moving forward for all parties. There is just no way you can untangle that ball of string imo as ultimately our origins are all the same, how far back do you want to go and why?.

The budget spend on indigenous people clearly indicates that there is no lack of funding or goodwill. It is just an incredibly difficult problem and one size doesn’t fit all. What is very clear is that people of all colours who choose to live in remote locations won’t have the same health or educational outcomes as people in major urban areas.

Generally imo there is plenty of acceptance that problems exist and goodwill to address them. I do think it’s fading fast with massive population increases without adequate infrastructure and plannning plus the whole blame game white male privilege routine.

You may note st trav that most of the population increase is being felt in Melbourne and Sydney, you really can feel the squeeze here now. Surely people are entitled to a mature debate about migration including how many and from where.

As to the Williams cartoon it’s not something I would have drawn and I don’t like caricatures in general. It is worth noting that I saw a gallery of similar drawings from various publications around the world obviously covering different points in her career, there was very little difference in how Serena was depicted. I do wonder why this particular cartoon was singled out for special condemnation, I also wonder if a very similar depiction of Serena celebrating a win would have rated a mention. Given that it’s been a massive slap from some quarters to Australians in general I think the coverage has been less than fair and balanced.

 

[gringo2011]

sorry but the "work hard enough" is the Privileged battle cry... the fact is there are far less opportunities for some as there are for others.. i can tell you some ofthe hardest workers i know are working their guts out and are never getting ahead yet i know loads of people doing exceptionally well for themselves who are the laziest disinterested and unmotivated individuals going around..
yes there are lots who are below the poverty line who through their own actions and decisions find themself there ad seem content to not do anything to stop that but for the most part the guys i know who are struggling are working bloody hard at getting out of the struggle ... people sitting back and pointing the "well you can do anything if you work hard enough" line is just like saying to a person with depression "just cheer up"..... the fact is being less fortunate is very much a generational thing poor familys have poor kids who have poor kids who have poor kids it is a cycle that go's on and on and unfortunatly in the indig community the issue is tenfold.. so if you want to break that cycle then government need to help with that ... look in honesty i would much rather my taxs go to improving the chances of the lower class then it going to line the pockets of the rich ...
an example here in WA we have a small agricultural boarding school that has been pivotal in setting up kids from the country to getting an education equal to that of a kid in the city, this school is now finding itself on the brink of certain closure due to the government not recognising the importance of the school and pulling the funding .. but on the flip side of that we have a proposed new school being opened on the site of the old Subiaco oval area (a very rich suburb) this school is going to be state of the art best of everything for the local who can afford to live in that district .. so let me ask you this if two kids going to these two schools were to later have a desire to get into higher education what one would you say would have the best chance of getting in ? the kid who has gone to the state of the art school in the leafy green suburb or the kid who's school is fighting to stay alive ?

as for gender and colour quotas in government why the hell not have that... for generations its been the white male domain where even the best quality female poli couldnt get a look in as for an indig person far out in the 1960 some of them were not even allowed a vote let alone hold a place in parliment... if we are talking about the quallity drop by overlooking a male in a role, given the current quallity of males in parliment i dont think thats an issue.. we have had 200 years of men by default getting the job in parliment more recently we have got the token female in roles.. if we flip that on its head then thats great in my opinion

Yeah, I know politicians and it's a really closed network. Often candidates are either put up by backers through financial aid to the party, developers and regions often do this kind of back door ride in or it's an old boys club where they put up the same types. Getting a spread of different types is better because you actually have orange of opinions that are from various perspectives. Women are often less combative and petty in the roles too.

 

[Yawkey way]

Yeah, I know politicians and it's a really closed network. Often candidates are either put up by backers through financial aid to the party, developers and regions often do this kind of back door ride in or it's an old boys club where they put up the same types. Getting a spread of different types is better because you actually have orange of opinions that are from various perspectives. Women are often less combative and petty in the roles too.

Of course it’s largely a closed shop and likely to remain that way in the major parties, even when people catch on as we’ve seen in some parts of Melbourne it involves a diaspora and branch stacking, hardly a desirable outcome.

I have no problem with woman and minorities in office i’m just yet to see any evidence they do a better job mind you nor do I think they do a worse one.

I’m totally against quotas of any kind, people who want to be elected should get on the ballot and make their case to the voters.

Look if Pauline Hanson and co can get elected how hard can it be, Ricky Muir half the idiots from qld.

 

[Crusty Undies]

disagree with the last part. it implies its just effort based. lets use a football analogy. tom curren was a very hard worker, i'm sure he had visions of being an all australian brownlow medalist, but i dont think he's going to get there and i dont think its through lack of effort.

Well it's partly that. Anyone who's capable and works hard enough can get to where they're capable of getting. If you want a football analogy take Spencer white, if he had curren's work ethic he'd be an all aus forward. You pretty clearly need both talent/intelligence etc and hard work but with both of those I firmly believe anyone can get anywhere. And yeah actually I have lived in Rural vic. Went to school with aboriginals, asians, jews, christians, sudanese and others. Still didn't see this systematic oppression you're talking about.

 

[austinnn]

Long post alert. Please indulge me a facile - perhaps even offensive - comparison.

Let's imagine a few things. Firstly let's imagine Aussie rules has existed for around 400 years with more or less the same evolution of teams and leagues that we've seen in the vfl/AFL over a much longer timeframe.

Then let's also imagine that whether or not you actually like the sport or not, you are born into the supporter groups of one of the teams and you have no choice in the matter (a lot of footy fans may argue that this was in fact the case!)

Then let's imagine that you are clearly marked with the identity of the whichever team you were born to support and this identity can be seen from far away, can be heard in an instant, can even be guessed from reading or hearing your name. Every time you apply for a job, a bank loan or a position for your child at a school, your footy allegence is the first impression the interviewer has. When you try to make friends or pick up girls/boys, the same. When you're in a group of people who support other teams, your allegence stands out.

We were born Saints fans, or Sainters. Some of us are proud of being Sainters, some hate it, some are ashamed of it, some never think of ourselves as Sainters, but we all are judged by the world as Sainters.

Supporters of other teams sometimes call us Ainters, in a nod to our miserable history. Ain't never been successful. One flag in all those years. So many spoons, so much failure. The scandals. The ineptitude. Unprofessional. Poor. Shambles. Rabble. The joke of the league. You either accept it or don't but you can't hide from it. Our story is on our faces. Ainter is just a word. How can a word hurt?

Even in our most successful periods, we heard all sorts of people refering to our proud club as the Aints. What did that name have to do with us when we were regularly beating all the other teams in the comp? Nothing except history.

Some people even used the nickname more when we were strongest in an attempt to stop us getting superior, keep us down. Back in the days of the Lyon Cage, we regularly heard other supporters rail angrily about "those arrogant Ainters, acting like they've been a superclub for years, they've won one flag, who do they think they are, they'll fail in the finals just like they always do" etc. Bitter campaigners, but maybe they were right? Who were we to start acting like we're suddenly unbeatable just because we had a few good runs. Anyway, we were everyone's second favourite team when we were strugglers but as soon as we actually started threatening, that love turned to spite.

No one embodies this as much nowadays as our living legend Nick Riewoldt. A true club champion and icon, fearless leader and consistently high onfield performer, how is he remembered by fans of other clubs? They talk about him crying, of whining to umpires for free kicks, of the dick pics with Dal, of the schoolgirl scandal and dwarf-lighting that he had nothing to do with. He was hated, maybe not as much as Lindsay Thomas or Adam Goodes but hated nonetheless. After the successful period faded and his chance for ultimate glory became improbable, his status as an institution of the league solidified and people were gracious about the Maddie's Match "indulgence", and now in the media he's harmless and lovable again.

Lots of us have talked about the far off eventuality of us winning a premiership. Maybe then we'll be regarded as professional as other clubs, stop being laughed at. Some of us demand that we dream big and push our club to be successful, others caution that we should walk before we can run, go step by step. The supporters of other clubs have been heard fearing that day; "you won't be able to shut those damn Ainters up", and right enough, if we did win a gf most of us would go on 6-month long benders and bang the club's drum continually in footy conversation, much like Richmond fans this year. The Saints with Hawthorn's level of recent success; most footy fan's nightmare.

Now let's imagine one final thing: imagine this is not just about sport.

For generations, access to decent education and employment was denied us. If we were lucky to get a decent job, we had to work twice as hard as other supporters to get the same status. In the street strangers used to shout "Ainter" at us, call us names, sometimes push or hit us. Our grandparents and ancestors were literally treated like dogs, weren't allowed in shops and bars, in some towns were actually rounded up and cruelly executed in public if we were judged to have stepped out of line somehow. For hundreds of years, we were real actual slaves, and until very recently widely regarded by the rest of the AFL world as inferior. Even now, prisons and ghettos are full of Saints fans who have little chance of getting out, despite all the incentives governments put in place.

All the while, this word keeps coming back. The A word. Ainter. Believe it or not, it was on your great great grandfather's passport. They shouted it when they hanged your grandad from a tree for looking at a Kangaroos supporter's sister. They whispered it at the back of the school bus when they flicked chewing gum into your mum's nice hairdo when she was a girl. Your uncle heard it when he made mistakes at work, and if he reacted he was fired.

No one dares say it to you these days, you are sometimes referred to as a St Kilda supporter, but you look in their eyes and you see flickers of the same look amongst the care and the love. Distrust. Fear. Confusion. Judgement. Your dumbass cousin calls himself and his friends Ainta, half as a joke, half as a masochistic acceptance of their lower status in society, or a reminder of who they are and where they've come from. You are horrified by this, but on some level you get it. The world sees you as an Ainter.

Remember that whether or not you even care about AFL or think of yourself as a Saints fan, you carry all that around on your face whenever you have contact with anyone. Your kids do too, even if their other parent supports a different team.

Would you still love footy? How would you feel if every time you made a mistake or made an arse of yourself all those smug AF Hawthorn supporters said "What do you expect from a St. Kilda supporter?"

You embarrass yourself in public and you get some idiot from a non-footy state like NSW drawing a picture of you in all your loser Saints merch, fat, stupid looking, holding onto your one paltry premiership cup and maybe a copy of this mythical "The Run" DVD, wearing a Saints Disco t-shirt and a pregnant schoolgirl girlfriend. They've got the right to draw whatever they want, just a silly picture, it's just a picture showing you behaving badly. Why are you so offended? That picture doesn't look like you. You are successful. You weren't around Moorabin in the 80s. You have been to countless finals and 4 grand finals, the comp is equalised now right, there's no loser clubs any more. But it does offend you.

Empathising with Serena Williams might be too much of an ask, so I'll flip it around and picture, in the above scenario, the trials and tribulations of proud Sainter Shane Warne. Imagine his relationship with the club examined in the media regularly, every misdemeanor along the way was referred to through the prism of his allegeance to St Kilda, simultaneously or even before his sporting achievements. "Look at that stupid Ainter Warney, he's done it again. Those Aints, eh!" His mistakes were his own stupid fault, but up and down the land we have people attributing them to the footy club he supports, overtly or otherwise.

Martin Luther King was a Sainter. Michael Jackson was a St Kilda supporter, even if he tried following Collingwood later in his career. Tupac was a Saint. Samuel L Jackson is a Saint. Oprah is a At Kilda fan. Ursula Burns is a Saint. Cornell West is an educated Saint. Beyoncé and Jay Z are both Saints. Kanye West is Saint, his kids too - even if their mother is a Freo fan. Serena Williams and her sister and father are all Saints.

 

[austinnn]

Even the above doesn't do justice to the Serena Williams picture.

The picture shows her as a savage, not just angry or silly but positively primative. It uses traditional techniques to do this that we might have seen in cartoons a hundred years ago, accentuating specific features and referencing African tribal culture. If you don't see that in the picture, then I'm sorry to say you don't have enough of an idea of the historical context, which was the point the article was making.

Not only does that picture de-civilise her but it also links back to the culture of dehumanisation historically used by white societies refering to black people in less integrated times.

Drawing her like that is not racist in itself, just as Eddie McGuire probably wasn't being deliberately racist when he referred to Adam Goodes as King Kong, but it was a symptom of one person conditioned by his culture to regard a black person as a primate/primative/an earlier step in evolution.

In other words to refer to Williams/Goodes as black, and draw up the old school depictions of black people that over the last 40 years society has tried to move on from.

That's why it's offensive.

If you are annoyed that white people are burdened with the obligation of vetting our communication for offensive cultural references towards certain groups of people, just because historically they have been deeply mistreated, then I'd suggest we have still got a pretty good deal comparatively.

 

[gringo2011]

Of course it’s largely a closed shop and likely to remain that way in the major parties, even when people catch on as we’ve seen in some parts of Melbourne it involves a diaspora and branch stacking, hardly a desirable outcome.

I have no problem with woman and minorities in office i’m just yet to see any evidence they do a better job mind you nor do I think they do a worse one.

I’m totally against quotas of any kind, people who want to be elected should get on the ballot and make their case to the voters.

Look if Pauline Hanson and co can get elected how hard can it be, Ricky Muir half the idiots from qld.

Guys like Muir literally got hundreds of votes but because of a quirk with preference sharing guys like him get elected. This might be the most ridiculous example of it below. Fraser Anning the racist idiot from Queensland got 19 federal votes and is on $200,000 plus perks. Bizarre that it's still possible.

It's not anything like level playing field with most politicians linked to special interest groups form racial groups to Christian conservatives, right to lifers, developers, overseas interests etc. I get so much pro Israel stuff from both major parties because I live in the bagel belt. You would think they are elected representatives there.

https://www.news.com.au/national/po...b/news-story/f8d8aaa83f0c2bcab53626455a3698d6

 

[Yawkey way]

Iiiii

Guys like Muir literally got hundreds of votes but because of a quirk with preference sharing guys like him get elected. This might be the most ridiculous example of it below. Fraser Anning the racist idiot from Queensland got 19 federal votes and is on $200,000 plus perks. Bizarre that it's still possible.

It's not anything like level playing field with most politicians linked to special interest groups form racial groups to Christian conservatives, right to lifers, developers, overseas interests etc. I get so much pro Israel stuff from both major parties because I live in the bagel belt. You would think they are elected representatives there.

https://www.news.com.au/national/po...b/news-story/f8d8aaa83f0c2bcab53626455a3698d6

haha yeah Melbourne ports and Brighton at state level for me.

What ever will we do now John Danby is retiring, perhaps the lest effective labour politician to hold such a prestigious seat.

I had some crap from him yesterday I just binned it, I’ll pay some attention closer to the election. At state level it’s a liberal slam dunk.

 

[gringo2011]

Iiiii

haha yeah Melbourne ports and Brighton at state level for me.

What ever will we do now John Danby is retiring, perhaps the lest effective labour politician to hold such a prestigious seat.

I had some crap from him yesterday I just binned it, I’ll pay some attention closer to the election. At state level it’s a liberal slam dunk.

Yeah, he was desperately ringing around last election and out doing meet and greets for the first time in years and harassed my dad who's a grumpy old campaigner. He told him to get out of his way and called him "Do-nothing Danby", he was with some junior staffers and they were trying not to piss themselves laughing at the name.
David Southwick is another who thinks Israel is somehow relevant to me. WTF are they doing trying to get elected in Melbourne with a platform that is all about helping the citizens of another country. To be fair to Southwick he's like some kind of parasitic creature who is at the opening of a car door and works his arse off at being at every sausage sizzle and fete. He's the shonkiest politician I've met in years. He literally changes tack if he thinks you hold another view and agrees. He literally told me that he was working tirelessly against Skyrail and when I said I liked it he started saying he liked it too. He's like a used car salesman.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Well it's partly that. Anyone who's capable and works hard enough can get to where they're capable of getting. If you want a football analogy take Spencer white, if he had curren's work ethic he'd be an all aus forward. You pretty clearly need both talent/intelligence etc and hard work but with both of those I firmly believe anyone can get anywhere. And yeah actually I have lived in Rural vic. Went to school with aboriginals, asians, jews, christians, sudanese and others. Still didn't see this systematic oppression you're talking about.

i hate to break it to you but that is not always the case... i can tell you about a person i know (a fellow saints fan)... she unfortunatly was in an abusive relationship .. and has 3 kids from that she ended up taking the kids and started up on her own because the abuse was getting worse ... this lady is very smart, she is also very talented she worked as a cleaner during school hours to support her family, at nights she studied in a field that has large need in the public towards the end of her study she then added a work placement on top of that .. her kids are always well behaved they always have food in their bellies and they are encorraged to work hard to get ahead ... she is now fully qualified and has everything going for her but the thing she didnt count on was that her skin colour would hold her back where her peers in her training got jobs in their field she keeps getting rejected over and over again her resume is fantastic and she get interviews all the time but never get past that stage .. this lady is now struggling even more with a debt from her study without the pay off of the career she has worked hard for ... they are now in strife they are getting left behind the oldest kid is now having to leave school to work to help make the rent .... so if you want to go and tell her to just work harder and you can get just about anything i think you will be shocked to the responce ...

i happen to be of Indian decent and due to my office work im pretty pale skinned now days (more a light brown colouring) but as a kid i was often lumped in with the "abo kids" so i can tell you first hand that racisim is very real funny enough if you talk to my blonde hair blue eyed friends from school their memories and recolections of growing up are very differant to mine and massivly differant to the indig kids from my school

 

[StCicatriz]

i hate to break it to you but that is not always the case... i can tell you about a person i know (a fellow saints fan)... she unfortunatly was in an abusive relationship .. and has 3 kids from that she ended up taking the kids and started up on her own because the abuse was getting worse ... this lady is very smart, she is also very talented she worked as a cleaner during school hours to support her family, at nights she studied in a field that has large need in the public towards the end of her study she then added a work placement on top of that .. her kids are always well behaved they always have food in their bellies and they are encorraged to work hard to get ahead ... she is now fully qualified and has everything going for her but the thing she didnt count on was that her skin colour would hold her back where her peers in her training got jobs in their field she keeps getting rejected over and over again her resume is fantastic and she get interviews all the time but never get past that stage .. this lady is now struggling even more with a debt from her study without the pay off of the career she has worked hard for ... they are now in strife they are getting left behind the oldest kid is now having to leave school to work to help make the rent .... so if you want to go and tell her to just work harder and you can get just about anything i think you will be shocked to the responce ...

i happen to be of Indian decent and due to my office work im pretty pale skinned now days (more a light brown colouring) but as a kid i was often lumped in with the "abo kids" so i can tell you first hand that racisim is very real funny enough if you talk to my blonde hair blue eyed friends from school their memories and recolections of growing up are very differant to mine and massivly differant to the indig kids from my school

great post mate and thanks for sharing

 

[StCicatriz]

Well it's partly that. Anyone who's capable and works hard enough can get to where they're capable of getting. If you want a football analogy take Spencer white, if he had curren's work ethic he'd be an all aus forward. You pretty clearly need both talent/intelligence etc and hard work but with both of those I firmly believe anyone can get anywhere. And yeah actually I have lived in Rural vic. Went to school with aboriginals, asians, jews, christians, sudanese and others. Still didn't see this systematic oppression you're talking about.

i think you need to go work and live in remote WA, NT or the USA

but to get back to the football analogy, i know of players that have had more talent than tom curren that were passed over in their draft/feeder year purely because of their location and family background. miss that and you rarely get a look in, if someone doesn't give you a chance within the window, you won't ever get the chance. you don't think thats occurring?

 

[Crusty Undies]

Culturally insensitive,

Incredibly difficult topic, affirmative action is really just another form of discrimination which clearly in many instances hasn’t worked.

Intergenerational poverty is a huge and costly problem it should be addressed, it should be colour-blind and it should meet KPIs.

Some groups entering the country are housed if not immediately then as a priority, poor Australians can be in a queue for government housing in some instances for over a decade. Some would argue that it’s very generous treatment when it’s often straight into housing, straight onto Medicare and family benefits plus whilst there is a two year waiting list for other payments like Newstart special benefits are also often paid immediately. That to the best of my knowledge has nothing to do with country of origin so if that has been suggested it’s imo wrong.

I have a problem with the concept that racism is somehow exclusive to Caucasian people, it’s not. I also have a problem with a narrative that only looks at invasion and dispossession by largely European colonialists. Most countries have had waves of invasions by different groups and occupations that lasted so long assimilation must have occurred to some extent. Currently people only want to talk about cases in isolation and in a time frame most advantages to themselves.

Check indigenous groups in Japan for example there won’t be any talk of reparations there, look at Italy even England. I believe it’s a nonsense to talk of the US and Australia amongst others as living on stolen ground and really unhelpful moving forward for all parties. There is just no way you can untangle that ball of string imo as ultimately our origins are all the same, how far back do you want to go and why?.

The budget spend on indigenous people clearly indicates that there is no lack of funding or goodwill. It is just an incredibly difficult problem and one size doesn’t fit all. What is very clear is that people of all colours who choose to live in remote locations won’t have the same health or educational outcomes as people in major urban areas.

Generally imo there is plenty of acceptance that problems exist and goodwill to address them. I do think it’s fading fast with massive population increases without adequate infrastructure and plannning plus the whole blame game white male privilege routine.

You may note st trav that most of the population increase is being felt in Melbourne and Sydney, you really can feel the squeeze here now. Surely people are entitled to a mature debate about migration including how many and from where.

As to the Williams cartoon it’s not something I would have drawn and I don’t like caricatures in general. It is worth noting that I saw a gallery of similar drawings from various publications around the world obviously covering different points in her career, there was very little difference in how Serena was depicted. I do wonder why this particular cartoon was singled out for special condemnation, I also wonder if a very similar depiction of Serena celebrating a win would have rated a mention. Given that it’s been a massive slap from some quarters to Australians in general I think the coverage has been less than fair and balanced.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. From the examples of affirmatice action I've seen it's led to more bad than good, and as you said is essentially discrimination only it's disguised as "equity".

Regarding racism being a caucasian thing or sexism being a male thing I also agree. Anyone can be racist or sexist and the number of midandrist women rivals the number of misogynist men now.

Immigration, even for people not willing to concede that it's a problem, definitely needs more discussion. I honestly don't see how it's bad to have a preference for where you'd take people from because they don't just have to live here, they have to live here with us and fit in with us so if people are closer to fitting in why not take them? White South Africans for example.

And yeah the Williams cartoon is a nothing story imo, been overplayed because of the times and the fact that Williams is an ally to all the vocal minorities now.

 

[Yawkey way]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. From the examples of affirmatice action I've seen it's led to more bad than good, and as you said is essentially discrimination only it's disguised as "equity".

Regarding racism being a caucasian thing or sexism being a male thing I also agree. Anyone can be racist or sexist and the number of midandrist women rivals the number of misogynist men now.

Immigration, even for people not willing to concede that it's a problem, definitely needs more discussion. I honestly don't see how it's bad to have a preference for where you'd take people from because they don't just have to live here, they have to live here with us and fit in with us so if people are closer to fitting in why not take them? White South Africans for example.

And yeah the Williams cartoon is a nothing story imo, been overplayed because of the times and the fact that Williams is an ally to all the vocal minorities now.

The problem with so much of this is story’s like st travs are true as are examples of racism etc.

The causes and answers are just so complex you can’t just flick a switch or punish another person in the same boat, you wright one wrong and create another.

My eldest wrote two theses on socioeconomic disadvantage across municipalities and worked as a research graduate at uni looking at a particular diaspora in Australia. He has a graduate position with the government now.

My eldest daughter is finishing her PhD women’s health etc, it’s not as though we haven’t talked endlessly about some of these topics.

I’ve also meet some amazing people who have worked all over the world including in remote indigenous communities and the Tiwi islands, even the complexity of kinship makes your head spin.

 

[austinnn]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. From the examples of affirmatice action I've seen it's led to more bad than good, and as you said is essentially discrimination only it's disguised as "equity".

Regarding racism being a caucasian thing or sexism being a male thing I also agree. Anyone can be racist or sexist and the number of midandrist women rivals the number of misogynist men now.

Immigration, even for people not willing to concede that it's a problem, definitely needs more discussion. I honestly don't see how it's bad to have a preference for where you'd take people from because they don't just have to live here, they have to live here with us and fit in with us so if people are closer to fitting in why not take them? White South Africans for example.

And yeah the Williams cartoon is a nothing story imo, been overplayed because of the times and the fact that Williams is an ally to all the vocal minorities now.

I don't know anyone who thinks racism is just a white thing or sexism is just a male thing. I know plenty of people see whites and males as having benefited from those types of discrimination and plenty that would be happy for this to continue, but no one would be taken seriously if they claimed racism is exclusive to whites etc.

Immigration control is sensible I suppose, but you can't fairly do blanket control based on presumptions because of an applicant's nationality, ethnicity or religion. If integration is the goal, it's got to be case by case. White South Africa? Jesus Christ...

Instead of prioritising applicants who are the least dissimilar to us, I think we as citizens of the world have to accept our fair share of difference too. A bit of the multi-culti doesn't really hurt anyone. You can see for yourself what having a more or less homogeneous society does for people's attitudes, I say F that. We can't afford to be that exclusive anymore in any case.

And I think the Williams charactature is just a reminder that we're still not on the same page and that what is present and obvious in the USA is still somewhat confusing in other countries without the same history. An ignorant dude drew an offensive cartoon accidentally. He should know better. Why doesn't he? I think that's really all it is.

 

[VDS66]

I reckon people to claim that good old hard work is all it takes to get ahead have in most cases had an easy upbringing or opportunity... In most cases.

 

[Crusty Undies]

I don't know anyone who thinks racism is just a white thing or sexism is just a male thing. I know plenty of people see whites and males as having benefited from those types of discrimination and plenty that would be happy for this to continue, but no one would be taken seriously if they claimed racism is exclusive to whites etc.

Immigration control is sensible I suppose, but you can't fairly do blanket control based on presumptions because of an applicant's nationality, ethnicity or religion. If integration is the goal, it's got to be case by case. White South Africa? Jesus Christ...

Instead of prioritising applicants who are the least dissimilar to us, I think we as citizens of the world have to accept our fair share of difference too. A bit of the multi-culti doesn't really hurt anyone. You can see for yourself what having a more or less homogeneous society does for people's attitudes, I say F that. We can't afford to be that exclusive anymore in any case.

And I think the Williams charactature is just a reminder that we're still not on the same page and that what is present and obvious in the USA is still somewhat confusing in other countries without the same history. An ignorant dude drew an offensive cartoon accidentally. He should know better. Why doesn't he? I think that's really all it is.

You can't be serious right? There absolutely are people who think you can't be racist to white people or sexist to men it's called the entire intersectional and sjw left wing. Haven't you heard the phrase "Racism = Prejudice + Power" when rational people attempt to point out their hypocrisy? Or those women who not only accept but revel in the fact that they're misandrists? Don't be ridiculous, these people absolutely exist and they're the ones currently being touted as pro equality. The higher ups in the Black Lives Matter movement all say the same "Racism = Prejudice + Power" bullshit whenever someone questions them, are you telling me people don't take BLM seriously?

What's your problem with White South Africa? They're currently undergoing the worst genocide of the 21st century under the support of their government but we shouldn't take them because they're white? Do you not see your own hypocrisy?

As for multi-cultural, do you agree with the diverse view that we should throw gays off of buildings? Stone women to death for the crime of being r*ped? Or maybe, kill people who don't believe that same as you? Because that's what you're statistically getting with 51% of Islamic immigrants, people who wouldn't object to Sharia law being propagated in First World Countries as it is in Egypt or Saudi Arabia right now. I have no problem with multi-ethnic immigrants but why should we willingly bring people into the country who aren't interested in the same core values as our country? People who would see our country in it's current form die out to become something not dissimilar to their own origins?

And no, the Williams caricature was making fun of Serena Williams. Did you call the caricatures Mark Knight has done of any of our Past Prime Ministers, Sports Stars, Trump, Hillary or anyone else in the past for being racist to white people and accentuating the generic features of white people? Of course you didn't, because that's absurd.

 

[austinnn]

OK I'm out. I should have known better.