Richmond drafting - explains a lot

[Senor M]

2006
Riewoldt (12) & Edwards (26), Jake King (rookie) - WINS
Connors – OK
Traded in Polak and #13 & 73 for their #8 & 42 picks – LOSS

This is as far as I got before realising that you are just being biased, bitter and unresearched.

Let's look at the Graham Polak Trade.

Richmond gave up Pick #8 and Pick #42 for Graham Polak, Pick #13 & Pick #73.

So Richmond game up:
Pick #8 and Pick #42 became Ben Reid (121 games in 10 years) & Bachar Houli who went to Essendon (played 26 games at Essendon)


Richmond gained:
Graham Polak (38 games for Richmond, would've played more if it wasn't for the tram accident), Pick #13 became Jack Riewoldt (202 games, 483 goals) and pick #73 became Andrew Collins (25 games for Richmond)


How can that be a "loss" for Richmond as a trade?? If we didn't make that trade we may've ended up with Ben Reid (yuck)

Then if we look at this trade as a whole-- Andrew Collins ended up being traded to Carlton for Shaun Grigg in the 2010 Trade period. Collins went on to play 11 games at Carlton. Compare that to Shaun Grigg, who's played 124 games for Richmond.

..and the Pick #42 the Tiges gave up in that trade (Bachar Houli) ended up at Richmond a few years later for a Preseason draft pick.

Therefore please explain to me how this trade is a "loss" again?

 

[kozi]

I certainly wouldn't ever think 2 premiership players listed here could ever be classified as "losses".
Jesus. Piss poor effort. Don't think using premiership players was the best way to prove your point.

Did the other 34 touch the premiership cup? I guess they can't be included either.

 

[footyfan1978]

It really annoys me how you've only put where the players were drafted next to some of the players.

Yep, if you are going to do one of these type of posts, least get the details right and not show only parts of it.
This is almost as sloppy as media coverage of last day of trades where they reported the details of Carlton trade with Hawthorn so wrong and the details of O'Meara trade wrong too.

Also find it a bit odd to call Corey Ellis from 2 drafts ago a clear loss already. Way too early to make those types of judgements.
The Lennon one too is a bit strange seeing as had to deal with injuries or sickness as part of his time on list so far. Also too early to make blanket judgement of loss.
A bit of a sloppy effort.

 

[Love the Drake]

Yep, if you are going to do one of these type of posts, least get the details right and not show only parts of it.
This is almost as sloppy as media coverage of last day of trades where they reported the details of Carlton trade with Hawthorn so wrong and the details of O'Meara trade wrong too.

Also find it a bit odd to call Corey Ellis from 2 drafts ago a clear loss already. Way too early to make those types of judgements.
The Lennon one too is a bit strange seeing as had to deal with injuries or sickness as part of his time on list so far. Also too early to make blanket judgement of loss.
A bit of a sloppy effort.

Corey Ellis hasnt shown anywhere near enough to justify picking him at 12. May come good but as of now it's a loss.
Lennon wanted to leave last year and was apparently shopped around this year but no-one wanted him. He has played 19 games in three years. For a pick 12 three years in the system that is a loss.

 

[Rich01]

Traded in Polak and #13 & 73 for their #8 & 42 picks -LOSS

LOL.

 

[Ronnie Baby]

Thread was null and void after the OP rated Jake Batchelor

 

[archiemoses]

They rarely stuffed up a first rounder. Only a few real a graders but not many busts.

Clearly it is culture

 

[RobsJourney]

Corey Ellis hasnt shown anywhere near enough to justify picking him at 12. May come good but as of now it's a loss.
Lennon wanted to leave last year and was apparently shopped around this year but no-one wanted him. He has played 19 games in three years. For a pick 12 three years in the system that is a loss.

To be fair, and I'm trying not to be biased, Corey Ellis has played very few matches.
What he showed as a midfielder was fantastic in 2015, what he showed this year as a backman was just okay. Otherwise, he's been injured.

Way too early to call him a loss, and personally he'll only end up a loss if Hardwick continues turning him into another vanilla half-back rather than the elite midfield/half-forward he can possibly become.

 

[Furn2]

Ahh the old revenge thread.

 

[freddy mercury]

Morris for pick 14?
That's factually incorrect.
We gave GWS pick 14 and in return they gave us 15 and Morris.
We picked up Brandon Ellis with 15.
Our drafting hasn't been great, although I think it has improved in recent years.
Menadue, Markov, Mcintosh, Corey Ellis, Rioli all look promising in their early stages.
This thread is a bit rich coming from a Carlton supporter though... Your draft record is equally as horrible if not worse.

Is he still on an AFL list? Holy *.

 

[French Tiger]

Chaplin & Knights were actually free agents!

I'm not getting into the topic except to say nice research , that itself takes some effort

 

[Capitano_Cotch]

Is he still on an AFL list? Holy ****.

Are you talking about Morris?
Yes, he is still with us.
A limited footballer with plenty of heart and was actually playing decent footy this year until he went down with an ACL injury.
Hopefully he recovers and comes back to play some footy at either AFL or VFL level.

 

[freddy mercury]

Are you talking about Morris?
Yes, he is still with us.
A limited footballer with plenty of heart and was actually playing decent footy this year until he went down with an ACL injury.
Hopefully he recovers and comes back to play some footy at either AFL or VFL level.

He is a terrible footballer.

 

[blitzer]

I think the essence of the OP was on the money but the reason why these sorts of long term draft analysis aren't done often is they take a lot of time to do right and without comparing to other clubs its hard to fully comprehend the significance of individual pick fails/successes.

A few things I like to think about when assessing drafts:
Each year you really want to be adding at least 2 guys that will be best 22 at some point. If you are in a rebuilding phase (and taking more picks) that number is more like 3-4. Beyond that you'd like to be picking up at least one guy that will get to top 50 in the comp level each year. This just offsets natural attrition of retirements/players leaving.

You need to nail those 1st round picks. I'd say in a 10 year period you would want 8+ of them to become long term players with a good portion reaching that top 50 level in the comp during their career. With second round picks if you can nail 50% of them then that's probably about par. Picks after that if you can nail 30% of them then that's probably par. Though in saying that if you want to win flags you will need to exceed par or have some other type of advantage eg trading/concessions whatever.

I think the OP did highlight a clear issue for Richmond - in the last 5 years have they picked up anyone you would be sure is going to be a top 50 in the comp player. There's some possibilities but not many certainties (Prestia was a good trade though and would qualify for mine). Really you need 1 of those types each year on average - which is probably why they are falling.

They did have a good run in the 2000s getting Cotchin, Rance, Deledio, Martin and Riewoldt in a 5 or 6 year period. That was quality drafting - even though they did have some very high picks that helped a lot. Since then its been fairly barren at the top end. There are some other factors though - they didn't get so many high picks and there were GC/GWS years as well where it was harder.

Overall: Richmond are far from being alone in the last 5 years for not drafting particularly well but its still a contributing factor as to what happened in 2016 and where most people see them going in the next few years. I suspect they will rue this period in years to come as they had an elite core but could never build the team around them to become truly successful. Who knows - things could change soon and some of their 2015 draftees looked pretty good.

 

[Funk]

Corey Ellis hasnt shown anywhere near enough to justify picking him at 12. May come good but as of now it's a loss.
Lennon wanted to leave last year and was apparently shopped around this year but no-one wanted him. He has played 19 games in three years. For a pick 12 three years in the system that is a loss.

Picking Lennon ahead of Cripps was definitely a loss.

 

[Funk]

Are you talking about Morris?
Yes, he is still with us.
A limited footballer with plenty of heart and was actually playing decent footy this year until he went down with an ACL injury.
Hopefully he recovers and comes back to play some footy at either AFL or VFL level.

Correct if you call decent football 10 possessions a game - more than half were handballs.

 

[Haggard H]

I certainly wouldn't ever think 2 premiership players listed here could ever be classified as "losses".
Jesus. Piss poor effort. Don't think using premiership players was the best way to prove your point.

Nathan Ablett?

 

[HumanMeatball]

Picking Lennon ahead of Cripps was definitely a loss.

Even if Richmond didn't select lennon they wouldn't have picked cripps. Cripps was a pure luck reach by carlton. He was estimated to go at around pick 25

 

[harrisendblue]

Are you talking about Morris?
Yes, he is still with us.
A limited footballer with plenty of heart and was actually playing decent footy this year until he went down with an ACL injury.
Hopefully he recovers and comes back to play some footy at either AFL or VFL level.

yep i hope he comes back and stays with u blokes for another 5 years.

 

[harrisendblue]

They rarely stuffed up a first rounder. Only a few real a graders but not many busts.

Clearly it is culture

agree with this totally. their culture has been seriously flawed since kevy bartlett sooked for 20 years. what a great example that was by their games record holder and self appointed living legend to put himself above the team and club, especially during some of there darkest periods.

 

[footyfan1978]

Corey Ellis hasnt shown anywhere near enough to justify picking him at 12. May come good

So we can see in reality it is no loss because at present it utterly clear he has not had enough time free of injury and time on field to be even judged. First season what games he did play were sub type roles.
Just playing games in your first season is a start, especially more so if injured for some time, which Ellis was.
It would be like us judging Harry McKay because he has not shown anything so far because he has barely got on park.
Simple mate, you cannot judge any players in system for less than two full years. For most players that make it, it takes a good three years just to even be close to being a regular senior player. It is no loss.
Judge in a couple of years when had enough pre-seasons under belt. Not every good player that play a long AFL career has the starts that a Selwood, Judd or Bontempelli have so early.
Furthermore at pick 12 you do not expect a superstar like those guys. They are rare exceptions and more likely to be found it top 2 or 3 picks of draft. You expect a good player at 12. If you end up with a good one after 4 or 5 years with a pick 12 it is a win. We are not there yet.

 

[Hans McGregor]

You've jumped the gun on c.ellis and Lennon.

 

[TwentyNine]

Carlton vs Richmond shitfights... where the irrelevancy of the clubs is matched only by their own over inflated egos. What a time to be alive.

 

[blueboy25]

Carlton vs Richmond shitfights... where the irrelevancy of the clubs is matched only by their own over inflated egos. What a time to be alive.

Bit like when minnow clubs need to change their logos to try and stay relevant.

 

[54dreamsalive]

should watch our guy go