Ross Lyon and his inability to give youth a go

[Belnakor]

St Kilda were a young and up and coming side, just needed to hit maturity and add some finishing touches. Ross turns up. Same with Fremantle. A lot of players at those clubs weren't acquired in his time.

This is total bullshit. When Ross turned up to Fremantle we had lost our last 5 games by an average of 59 points. We were getting flogged every week. We'd lost to a s**t Melbourne team earlier in the season by 89 points.

Under Mark Harvey the only thing Freo had coming up was an anchor down to the bottom.

 

[Belnakor]

p.s. Freo don't have a representative on the AA Committee either. The only West Australian is Glen Jackovoch... who played in the Demolition Derby and won 2 Premierships at... yep, you guessed it, West Coast.

which is why nat fyfe only has 2 AAs essentially.

 

[Freomaniac]

The last two YEARS you’ve ended up 16th and 14th.

Very deceiving in those spots. You look back in 2016, especially at the time we were 0-10, that was a fluke. 2 point loss to Carlton round 5 aside, people talk like we were getting pumped by 10-15 goals a week in those 1st 10 games. Freo were losing by 4-7 goals in those games. Freo should of never of been that bad. Freo should of got 7-8 wins in 2016 instead of 4.

As I said, freo in 2016 was averaging 73 points a game and conceding 96 points a game and got 4 wins. In 2017 they were slightly worse averaging 72 points a game and concede 98 points a game but got 8 wins.

As for Freo finishing 14th. Freo got 6 of those wins in the 1st 10 games of the season. Then won only 2 games after round 11. We ended up with 8 wins. This can come in 2 ways. Had freo lost one of those close games to the 15th placed North, Both teams would of switched spots as North would of been 14th and Freo in the bottom 4 at 15th spot.

On the other hand, yes Freo won 5 games by 3 goals or less. Freo also lost 4 games by under 3 goals or less. Freo could of ended up with ended up with as little as 5 wins or as much as 11 wins.

 

[WilloTree]

which is why nat fyfe only has 2 AAs essentially.

and Lauchie Neale can break an AFL disposals record, and still not get in.

 

[Belnakor]

and Lauchie Neale can break an AFL disposals record, and still not get in.

Considering Tom Mitchell got in on the back of a pretty much identical season in 2017 too.

 

[WilloTree]

Considering Tom Mitchell got in on the back of a pretty much identical season in 2017 too.

Dane Swan 2011. Leading disposals for the year... named on a half forward flank... hmmmm

 

[masai]

p.s. Freo don't have a representative on the AA Committee either. The only West Australian is Glen Jackovoch... who played in the Demolition Derby and won 2 Premierships at... yep, you guessed it, West Coast.

In all honesty, do you think the AA Committee really takes any notice of what Glen Jakovich says ?, ............................ they will wait until Gerard Healy says who's in.

 

[WilloTree]

In all honesty, do you think the AA Committee really takes any notice of what Glen Jakovich says ?, ............................ they will wait until Gerard Healy says who's in.

haha. Maybe Gerard just sends them his team with 'great job fellas, see you in 2019' written at the bottom.

 

[raffrox]

This is total bullshit. When Ross turned up to Fremantle we had lost our last 5 games by an average of 59 points. We were getting flogged every week. We'd lost to a s**t Melbourne team earlier in the season by 89 points.

Under Mark Harvey the only thing Freo had coming up was an anchor down to the bottom.

Harvey also was heading down a path of shortening Pavs career by over playing him in the midfield.

It's just more Vic bias crap that Harvey was hard done by or that he did all the work.

 

[The Filth]

Dane Swan 2011. Leading disposals for the year... named on a half forward flank... hmmmm

Yeah he only won the Brownlow that season...

 

[The Filth]

which is why nat fyfe only has 2 AAs essentially.

Stiffed by injuries in other seasons...

 

[The Filth]

Good to see Alex Pearce back...potential AA defender.

 

[gbatman]

This is total bullshit. When Ross turned up to Fremantle we had lost our last 5 games by an average of 59 points. We were getting flogged every week. We'd lost to a s**t Melbourne team earlier in the season by 89 points.

Under Mark Harvey the only thing Freo had coming up was an anchor down to the bottom.

Just because you're losing doesn't mean you haven't got a good young list. Ross Lyon built some of that list but not a lot. Young players regardless of quality get beaten, until they mature.

 

[gbatman]

Solid all round post you put here.

Saints were a decent side under Grant Thomas from 2004-6 but couldn't make that grand final. Then Ross Lyon was there from 2007-2011 and the rest is history.

Malthouse scenario was different. He took over the dogs for a few years and got hem to a prelim despite the financial Resources (Or lack there of). Takes over the Eagles for 10 years, gives them finals every single year and gets a couple of flags. Then he goes to Collingwood in 2000. He guides the magpies to grand finals in 2002-3. They drop in 2004-5 then have a finals run in 2006-11 with 2 grand finals and 1 flag.

What defines a good rebuild? you tell me.

Ron Barrassi was Melbournes coach in 1981-5. Didn't make finals in those years But he play a lot of youth. A fair bit of those guys tat played under Barrassi in that period Played in that Grand Final in 1988.

Robert Walls saw through Brisbanes period of 1991-5 and given debuts to many players in that period. Some of them played finals from 1995-7. Others were part of the lions flags of 2001-3.

So yeah.....

It's a hell of a journey to get to the top. Sometimes you can have that team that will get you there but for whatever reason you aren't there. You can have a good young list that just needs more games under its belt and maturity and it can be mediocre but it can be the list to get you to the top. Maybe a top up, maybe a change in tactics. But for most teams, the period prior to their rise to the top was pretty mediocre.

There have been quite a few coaches who have made a name for themselves because they turned up at the right time and some who have been labelled failures because they turned up at the wrong time. Good on them for having a keen eye and seeing potential, well done that takes a good eye and a fair bit of luck.

The obvious one is Chris Scott, turned up at a obviously strong club and won a flag. Doesn't get a huge amount of credit, hey they had the team but he contributed.

The less obvious one is Ross Lyon, turned up to two clubs who very soon made grand finals. Coaching doesn't make a team get to the top, the quality of the best 22 and the list does. He didn't build a lot of that list. It's like if you make a cake and someone else puts the icing on it and they get all the credit, sure they contributed but come on.

Both St Kilda and Fremantle lost grand finals (could they have been more offensive and won?) and both clubs and their lists bombed out big time afterwards. That's concerning but the coach isn't the only one in charge.

It's guys like Hardwick that were there for 7 years, took over a dreadful list with a dreadful recruiting history that built from the ground up. That is what I would call full credit. Not rocking up and making a grand final in a few years, losing then seeing the list bomb. Twice. That's not impressive.

If Ross Lyon oversees Fremantle's revival and wins a flag then that would be one of the great coaching achievements IMO. Even if he gets them to a point where they are close and someone else ends up coaching them.

 

[Belnakor]

Both St Kilda and Fremantle lost grand finals (could they have been more offensive and won?) and both clubs and their lists bombed out big time afterwards. That's concerning but the coach isn't the only one in charge.

The saints bombed out because they were paying 60% of their salary cap to 10 players. Unless Ross is doing the contract work thats really out of his hands.

 

[WilloTree]

Yeah he only won the Brownlow that season...

That's my point. He's a midfielder... or did you think he got all those possessions and won a Brownlow from half forward? AA's a joke.

 

[The Filth]

That's my point. He's a midfielder... or did you think he got all those possessions and won a Brownlow from half forward? AA's a joke.

Gary Ablett Jr and Judd were the midfielders in that team.
Do you really think that Swan, Ablett or Judd should be left out?
They also kicked more goals than many of the designated half forwards.
If you ran any of those players as a permanent half forward they would still be AA.

 

[WilloTree]

Gary Ablett Jr and Judd were the midfielders in that team.

Not sure why you only named 2. Ablett, Judd, Mitchell, Thomas and Pendlebury were the midfielders named in position. (They also had Boyd, Dal Santo and Kelly as interchange)

Do you really think that Swan, Ablett or Judd should be left out?

No. There are 5 midfield position (and as many as 4 on the interchange). They probably deserved 3 of those spots.

They also kicked more goals than many of the designated half forwards.

But, and here's my point, he didn't play half forward. So you are comparing apples to oranges just to squeeze another mid in the team. If you are picking him as a hff because "kicked more goals", then he's not even close to making the team.

Here are some of the forwards who "kicked more goals" than Swan in 2011: Martin, Krackour, Green, LeCras, Garlett, Johnson, Betts and Walker.

If you ran any of those players as a permanent half forward they would still be AA.

What has this got to do with selecting an AA team? A hypothetical scenario hardly qualifies someone for a best 22 in a season.

 

[The Filth]

Not sure why you only named 2. Ablett, Judd, Mitchell, Thomas and Pendlebury were the midfielders named in position. (They also had Boyd, Dal Santo and Kelly as interchange)

No. There are 5 midfield position (and as many as 4 on the interchange). They probably deserved 3 of those spots.

But, and here's my point, he didn't play half forward. So you are comparing apples to oranges just to squeeze another mid in the team. If you are picking him as a hff because "kicked more goals", then he's not even close to making the team.

Here are some of the forwards who "kicked more goals" than Swan in 2011: Martin, Krackour, Green, LeCras, Garlett, Johnson, Betts and Walker.

What has this got to do with selecting an AA team? A hypothetical scenario hardly qualifies someone for a best 22 in a season.

Why not - John Nicholls is named in the back pocket in the AFL/VFL team of the century.
Never named there on a team list for Carlton, he's a ruckman not a specialist defender, but recognises the old practice of 'resting' your ruckmen in the back pocket.(hypothetical? but a reality)
Leigh Matthews was a Rover/Fwd pocket.

Since the advent of interchange teams don't adhere to strict lineups. We live in the era of midfielders/forwards. Your better players tend to spend more time in the midfield but are rotated around. They are the best players in the comp and should be recognised as such.
The AA side of 2011 is a fair one - the specialist dominant form forwards are still named - Milne, Cloke, Franklin, Goodes and Petrie (Ruck/Fwd) named on interchange.

Steele Sidebottom was one of our best forward last week - but named on a wing. Teams play a spare man in defense - not as named - hypothetical?

AA teams are a side picked to reflect the best players for that season. You can disagree, thats your choice and your opinion, but Murphy and Swan were amongst the best players in the league that season and deserve to be named on the ground.

(Oh and you are right - I was only looking at the followers when I was looking at Swan. He should probably be in the midfield, put Pendlebury or Gazza at half forward. But whilst Swan didn't "play" half forward he must have spent sometime running through there, and did - he didn't kick his goals from the centre of the ground 70 metres away!)

What about during the era of Full Forwards - would you name every full forward in your AA forward line because they kicked the most goals? Would that make you feel better?

Anyway - I don't know why a beef about AA selection for Forwards should appear in a Ross Lyon forum.
He is not a coach that promotes high scoring and it is unlikely for a Freo forward to threaten AA selection under Lyons gameplan when they are usually amongst the lowest scoring teams in the comp.
(Although on topic - I do like the way Taberner goes about it, looks promising)

 

[WilloTree]

unlikely for a Freo forward to threaten AA selection under Lyons gameplan

Hayden Ballentyne - 2014

 

[The Filth]

Hayden Ballentyne - 2014

Yeah should have been Hawkins - or Kennedy or Schulz or Jack Riewoldt..
Ballantyne kicked 49 goals, took 89 marks - 12th on the goalkicking table.
Kennedy, 61 goals, 114 marks - 6th
J Riewoldt, 61 goals, 136 marks - 5th
Schulz, 66 goals, 160 marks - 4th
Hawkins, 68 goals, 161 marks - 3rd
Buddy and Roughead 1st and 2nd - got AA

Go figure. Using your selection method - how?

 

[Righteo]

Yeah should have been Hawkins or Kennedy or Schulz..

That's pretty embarrassing. Cop it on the chin when you're in the wrong bud, doubling down makes you look like a (bigger) turkey.

It also really illustrates your agenda.

 

[beetz]

Yeah should have been Hawkins or Kennedy or Schulz..

Agree, they were much better small forwards that year

 

[The Filth]

That's pretty embarrassing. Cop it on the chin when you're in the wrong bud, doubling down makes you look like a (bigger) turkey.

It also really illustrates your agenda.

Yeah it does - Fremantle have historically been a low scoring team under Lyon - fact.

You had to look hard for a Fremantle AA forward - Ballantyne, seriously - in a year when there were better goalkicking forwards not selected - fact.
(..and I agree that Pavlich was stitched up in 2012 - AA squad but not team. Equal leading goalkicker with Franklin)
So yeah, either way, one AA forward in 6 years for a team that finished in the top 4 for three of those seasons.

Look at the rankings

Fremantle ranking as a club - total score ranking by season under Ross Lyon, ladder position home&away season, leading goalkicker and position on table.

2012 - 12th - ladder 7th - Pavlich 69 goals (equal 1st)
2013 - 11th - ladder 3rd - Walters 46 goals (12th)
2014 - 8th - ladder 4th - Ballantyne 49 goals (12th)
2015 - 12th - ladder 1st - Walters 44 goals (20th)
2016 - 16th - ladder 16th - Walters 36 goals (33rd)
2017 - 17th - ladder 14th - McCarthy 25 goals (48th)

So when I say: "He is not a coach that promotes high scoring and it is unlikely for a Freo forward to threaten AA selection under Lyons gameplan when they are usually amongst the lowest scoring teams in the comp." - am I wrong.

Ross is coaching a more attacking style this season, it will be interesting to see if he perseveres with it or reverts back to his old habits.

On reflection - Ballantyne probably deserves his AA merely for the fact is is so hard to score goals in a Ross Lyon coached team.

 

[WilloTree]

You had to look hard for a Fremantle AA forward

Is it "had to look hard" or "unlikely to threaten"?

If the thread isn't going to make any sense I don't see the need for it.

I'm out.