Roughead VS Cloke

[Strapping Young Lad]

Roughead wasn't a stay at home FF in 2010.

Unfortunately for Hawks supporters we had our two best forwards up on the half back line, trying to race the ball forward, like a fast break, far too often ( see Franklins two goals against the Bombers).

If Rough was a stay at home forward in 2010, he'd have kicked 65+, but as it was we constantly lacked a forward, playing deep. It was one of the frustrations of our 2010, if you aks most Hawks supporters.

 

[savagelunchbox]

Here's a couple of facts for you, but be warned, you wont like them.

2010 stats.

roughead
goals 2.3
goal assists 0.7
=3
as a stay at home FF.

Cloke
goals 1.6
goal assists1.1
=2.7
as a hardworking CHF who covers a heap of ground and took more contested marks than anyone in the AFL in 2010.

umm, let me think... the only idiot here mate is you, deal with it.

Yeah nah ur rite, i'm an idiot. I mean i'm the one who is on Cloke's side yet provided stats showing that Roughead has involvement in more goals than Cloke. Hmmmm yeah nah i'm an idiot!!

 

[the distributer]

Yeah nah ur rite, i'm an idiot. I mean i'm the one who is on Cloke's side yet provided stats showing that Roughead has involvement in more goals than Cloke. Hmmmm yeah nah i'm an idiot!!

do you know the difference between FF and CHF?

 

[Ordovician]

do you know the difference between FF and CHF?

If you think Roughead is a FF then you know absolutely nothing about Hawthorn's forward structure. Hawthorn does not have a full forward nor do they have a centre half forward.

Neither Roughy or Buddy are full forwards. They take turns playing deep and they both do their share running around the half back line. Sometimes Buddy will be deeper whilst other times Buddy is trying to burn off his opponent by playing down the ground. With a full field press neither of them are in the the forward line.

Buddy is far more noticable when he is down the ground because he'll occasionally get the ball and go for a run and that is what the fans remember eg goal of the year. Buddy will sometimes play way up on the wing to get away from a dominant defender like Lake but that is more of a game tatic for that day.

 

[skelly12]

LOL those picking Cloke are idiots. What wins games: Goals or Marks on the wing? People are writing off Roughy coz of one sub-par year. That's ridiculous.

Take note:

• In 2008 Roughead kicked 66 goals in 22 games. That equals 3 a game. He finished 4th in the Coleman but was still 2nd in goal kicking at Hawthorn by 36 (38 come the end of the finals).
• In 2009 he kicked 51 in 19 games (approx. 2.5 goals a game)
• In 2010 he kicked 53 goals in 23 in his sub-par year.

Travis Cloke on the other hand has kicked:

• In 2008, 40 goals in 23 games. Thats less than 2 a game.
• In 2009, 22 in 22 games. Thats 1 per game. This was in a year where Collingwood needed a goal kicking forward.
• In 2010, 38 in 24 games. Again, thats less than 2 per game.

The stats and performances clearly have Roughead a lap in front of Cloke. But for those saying Roughead is a FF and Cloke a CHF, hows about we compare Cloke with Franklin? And while we're at it, we'll compare Dawes and Roughead? Hmmm maybe not because Collingwood fans wouldn't want to face reality.

Yep. You're right, we really battled to win games last year with the two dud key forwards we had running around.......

 

[the distributer]

If you think Roughead is a FF then you know absolutely nothing about Hawthorn's forward structure. Hawthorn does not have a full forward nor do they have a centre half forward.

Neither Roughy or Buddy are full forwards. They take turns playing deep and they both do their share running around the half back line. Sometimes Buddy will be deeper whilst other times Buddy is trying to burn off his opponent by playing down the ground. With a full field press neither of them are in the the forward line.

Buddy is far more noticable when he is down the ground because he'll occasionally get the ball and go for a run and that is what the fans remember eg goal of the year. Buddy will sometimes play way up on the wing to get away from a dominant defender like Lake but that is more of a game tatic for that day.

yep, that must be why roughead averaged 1 rebound 50 every 10 games.

here are some stats that IMO prove roughead spends a lot more time inside the fwd 50 compared to cloke.

roughead.
shots on goal. 4.3
rebound 50. 0.1
inside 50. 1.6
kicks. 8.4
so out of an average of 8.4 kicks per game 4.3 are direct shots on goal, 1.6 are inside 50, so that's 7 possessions out of 8.4 (not counting handballs ave 3.9) that are at least fwd of centre.

cloke.
shots on goal. 3.2
rebound 50. 0.1
inside 50. 4.2
kicks. 11.2

I think its pretty clear which player spends more time inside 50, FWIW, IMO there's nothing between the 2 at present, both are B graders IMO, they are both very promising though, those saying either player "easily" is better are deluded IMO.

 

[WatWouldCyrilDo]

The people have well an truly spoken.

No matter how many spurious arguments you collingwood supporters come up with.. the masses know better.

 

[savagelunchbox]

yep, that must be why roughead averaged 1 rebound 50 every 10 games.

here are some stats that IMO prove roughead spends a lot more time inside the fwd 50 compared to cloke.

roughead.
shots on goal. 4.3
rebound 50. 0.1
inside 50. 1.6
kicks. 8.4
so out of an average of 8.4 kicks per game 4.3 are direct shots on goal, 1.6 are inside 50, so that's 7 possessions out of 8.4 (not counting handballs ave 3.9) that are at least fwd of centre.

cloke.
shots on goal. 3.2
rebound 50. 0.1
inside 50. 4.2
kicks. 11.2

I think its pretty clear which player spends more time inside 50, FWIW, IMO there's nothing between the 2 at present, both are B graders IMO, they are both very promising though, those saying either player "easily" is better are deluded IMO.

Oh so Roughead gets more goals and more shots on goal than Cloke despite getting less kicks. That shows that he's more of an opportunist and knows what his role is. Yes I know ur gonna say that it mean that Roughead plays down in the forward 50 more, but he is a forward and a forwards job is to stay in the forward line.

As for the inside50 stat, that is the more overrated stat in the league. I say this because yes a player can kick it into the forward 50 and have it go on the stat sheet, but he'll still gets the stat despite kicking to an opposition player or to a 3 on 1 against his teammate.

I can't believe people are willing to write of Roughy after one average, confidence riddled year despite the 2 strong yrs he had previously. Meanwhile these collingwood supporters are willing to give Cloke an AA place because of one OK yr despite 2 poor yrs before that.

Yes thats right, i said he had an OK yr. He was the beneficiary of being in a top quality side. Just like Mooney with Geelong, he's nothing more than an ok forward whose been lucky enough to have delivery from the likes of Bartel, Ablett, Selwood, Corey and the like. And yes you could say the same was with Roughy in '08 but don't forget Franklin was the no1 forward option and Roughy was no2, whereas Cloke was number 1 and number 2 for the 1st half of 2010.

 

[the distributer]

Oh so Roughead gets more goals and more shots on goal than Cloke despite getting less kicks. That shows that he's more of an opportunist and knows what his role is. Yes I know ur gonna say that it mean that Roughead plays down in the forward 50 more, but he is a forward and a forwards job is to stay in the forward line.

As for the inside50 stat, that is the more overrated stat in the league. I say this because yes a player can kick it into the forward 50 and have it go on the stat sheet, but he'll still gets the stat despite kicking to an opposition player or to a 3 on 1 against his teammate.

I can't believe people are willing to write of Roughy after one average, confidence riddled year despite the 2 strong yrs he had previously. Meanwhile these collingwood supporters are willing to give Cloke an AA place because of one OK yr despite 2 poor yrs before that.

Yes thats right, i said he had an OK yr. He was the beneficiary of being in a top quality side. Just like Mooney with Geelong, he's nothing more than an ok forward whose been lucky enough to have delivery from the likes of Bartel, Ablett, Selwood, Corey and the like. And yes you could say the same was with Roughy in '08 but don't forget Franklin was the no1 forward option and Roughy was no2, whereas Cloke was number 1 and number 2 for the 1st half of 2010.

that post was directed at the posters who said roughead spent a lot of time backward of centre/half back, you also need to remember that cloke won a BaF for a top 4 side as a 20 yr old, , he had an average year (for what was expected) in 08 and had a woefull year in 09, he had a pretty good year in 2010 without being great after another woefull start (games 1 to 4).

Not a lot in it mate IMO, id prefer cloke and you'd prefer roughy, nothing either of us say is going to change that, but if you carry on with your view, it just means that our midfeild/backline become that much better than yours, because your saying and i quote "only an idiot would pick cloke over roughy", which means you believe our best fwd isnt fit to lick the bootlaces of your second best fwd, must be an almighty gap everywhere else then mustnt there?

 

[StillWaiting5689]

As for the inside50 stat, that is the more overrated stat in the league. I say this because yes a player can kick it into the forward 50 and have it go on the stat sheet, but he'll still gets the stat despite kicking to an opposition player or to a 3 on 1 against his teammate.

This is a good point, it would be interesting to see what the retention rate for Cloke I50s is because he often has a tendency to just bomb it long on top of players heads, granted he didn't do that as much this year but in games he does do it, usually when we aren't playing our best already, it makes our forward line look very average. This was his signature move in 09.

Cloke whilst probably behind at the moment will probably be viewed as the better player by the end of their careers, mainly because he doesn't have a talent like Buddy to compete with. Who knows how Roughy would go as the main forward, sort of like Kosi.

 

[the distributer]

This is a good point, it would be interesting to see what the retention rate for Cloke I50s is because he often has a tendency to just bomb it long on top of players heads, granted he didn't do that as much this year but in games he does do it, usually when we aren't playing our best already, it makes our forward line look very average. This was his signature move in 09.

Cloke whilst probably behind at the moment will probably be viewed as the better player by the end of their careers, mainly because he doesn't have a talent like Buddy to compete with. Who knows how Roughy would go as the main forward, sort of like Kosi.

Its a good point you make about kosi, he kicked 60 a couple of seasons back, and we all know how good he is

 

[StillWaiting5689]

Its a good point you make about kosi, he kicked 60 a couple of seasons back, and we all know how good he is

I think both Kosi and Roughead would be better players without Buddy and Roo around, however their teams would obviously be weakened. Obvoiusly Kosi didn't step up enough when Roo went down but I think a career playing the main role would see him be a very different player. I've always thought he would have been a better CHF then FF but what can you do when Roo is there.
Of course it could go the other way and the player struggle under the increased attention.

Oh and you are being harsh on Roughead comparing him to Kosi as far as playing ability. I was more likening the situations of being second fiddle to stars of the comp.

 

[the distributer]

I think both Kosi and Roughead would be better players without Buddy and Roo around, however their teams would obviously be weakened. Obvoiusly Kosi didn't step up enough when Roo went down but I think a career playing the main role would see him be a very different player. I've always thought he would have been a better CHF then FF but what can you do when Roo is there.
Of course it could go the other way and the player struggle under the increased attention.

Oh and you are being harsh on Roughead comparing him to Kosi as far as playing ability. I was more likening the situations of being second fiddle to stars of the comp.

your right, i shouldnt compare roughy to kosi, i wouldnt swap roughy for 3 kosi's, but my point remains, goals arnt everything you judge a fwd by.

 

[savagelunchbox]

hahahaha if we're bringing Kosi into this discussion then well... i'm lost for words. Kosi isn't a shadow to Roughy and Cloke. He lives of 1 ok game every 6 wks to stay in the side. Same as the birdman, he'd do nothing but take one decent mark and because of that he'd remain in the side despite the countless failed attempts at speckies or in Kosi's case, 1 ok game keeps him in the side despite the countless bad games.

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

I would definitely take Jordan Roughead.

 

[Damon_3388]

Its a good point you make about kosi, he kicked 60 a couple of seasons back, and we all know how good he is

Koschitzke has never kicked more than 48 goals in a season (2009).

 

[the distributer]

Koschitzke has never kicked more than 48 goals in a season (2009).

neh, whats 12 goals between friends?

i actually kicked 12 goals in qtr once, slightly lesser level though, not meaning to brag, a bit drunk that's all, on second thoughts, that tally seams to grow every year lol, i'll pull it up when it reaches 20.

 

[mdc]

Roughead very comfortably for me. I've never seen a less effective player get as much credit as Travis Cloke does for the team's success. Roughead's the most talented young KP player in the league (freaks like Franklin excepted), and I'd be pretty confident our development could make him a superb player.

 

[Byron_Clanger]

I'd go Roughead