Autopsy Round 1, 2023: Positives and Negatives vs North Melbourne

[The wily weagle]

Ginbey laying so many tackles makes me smile though

Get him in the middle with Culley and Yeo and even though we still might not win the match, the opposition is going to feel some pain

 

[bzparkes]

If we have a season anything like last season, and he's still there in 2024, I and many others will be very very unhappy.

How can we be this bad with so much experience and credentialed players in our team? Nic Nat, Yeo, Shuey, Gaff, Kelly, Sheed, Cripps, Darling, Allen, Ryan, Gov, Barrass, Hurn, Duggan. That is 14 players who should be playing good consistent footy each week. 8 different all australian players plus another who is a norm smith medallist and another who is our reigning B&F. None of those apart from Shuey and Hurn are at an age where you might expect their output would significantly decline. And it hasn't for Hurn that much, and Shuey is probably still our best mid when fit. How can the coach not get more out of that group? Most teams who've historically gone as bad as us are largely unexperienced and/or lacking talent. We've had two glaring weaknesses for at least 3 seasons now - ball movement and contested ball in the middle, and have not improved on either. At all. Simmo talks of synergy, well to me the person who has the responsibility for developing group synergy is none other than the head coach. We have seemed to lack desire and hardness a lot over the last couple years, and while the players need to take some blame for this, it ultimately reflects very poorly on the coach if it is a continuing trend that he can't address. Player motivation and attitude are also overwhelmingly the responsibility of the head coach.

Sorry Simmo, but you look like a coach who is all at sea. If the club don't have the balls to pull the trigger (assuming another very bad season), then they're a pack of *ing idiots. The longer it goes on as it is now, the more damage is done. Don't * with the development of our young players coming through, if they have much longer under this system then I fear that ground will not be recovered.

So they sack him, fine.

Then, pray tell, who do they hire that they can pay an absolute pittance to to be a senior coach so they don't excessively exceed the soft cap?

 

[Boohemian]

If we have a season anything like last season, and he's still there in 2024, I and many others will be very very unhappy.

How can we be this bad with so much experience and credentialed players in our team? Nic Nat, Yeo, Shuey, Gaff, Kelly, Sheed, Cripps, Darling, Allen, Ryan, Gov, Barrass, Hurn, Duggan. That is 14 players who should be playing good consistent footy each week. 8 different all australian players plus another who is a norm smith medallist and another who is our reigning B&F. None of those apart from Shuey and Hurn are at an age where you might expect their output would significantly decline. And it hasn't for Hurn that much, and Shuey is probably still our best mid when fit. How can the coach not get more out of that group? Most teams who've historically gone as bad as us are largely unexperienced and/or lacking talent. We've had two glaring weaknesses for at least 3 seasons now - ball movement and contested ball in the middle, and have not improved on either. At all. Simmo talks of synergy, well to me the person who has the responsibility for developing group synergy is none other than the head coach. We have seemed to lack desire and hardness a lot over the last couple years, and while the players need to take some blame for this, it ultimately reflects very poorly on the coach if it is a continuing trend that he can't address. Player motivation and attitude are also overwhelmingly the responsibility of the head coach.

Sorry Simmo, but you look like a coach who is all at sea. If the club don't have the balls to pull the trigger (assuming another very bad season), then they're a pack of *ing idiots. The longer it goes on as it is now, the more damage is done. Don't * with the development of our young players coming through, if they have much longer under this system then I fear that ground will not be recovered.

Easy to look like a coach at sea when we simply do not have the cattle. We need to rejuvenate the list, and bring some young talent in.

This just the normal ebb and flow of development. Bringing in a new coach isn't going to solve our problems immediately.

 

[RookiePick]

Need a meme where kellys image is replaced i by des headlands.

This is...too accurate for comfort.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

So they sack him, fine.

Then, pray tell, who do they hire that they can pay an absolute pittance to to be a senior coach so they don't excessively exceed the soft cap?

There’s about a dozen people in this thread alone that would probably put their hands up

 

[ziad]

After watching the absolute trash the Hawks turned into once their youngsters started to run out of puff in the second quarter I don't think we are the worst side in the league.

We have rusty players, down a few as well but our best was easly enough on the day to beat North. We were effortless for a half and destroyed easy scoring, Long. Allen (BBW impersonation) and a few others. That will improve despite our weaknesses. The saints were terrible but worked extremely hard, the Dockers were an absolute shamples and will unlikely be that poor again. We will not be in the bottom few I expect.

 

[Astro7]

We have rusty players, down a few as well but our best was easly enough on the day to beat North. We were effortless for a half and destroyed easy scoring, Long. Allen (BBW impersonation) and a few others. That will improve despite our weaknesses. The saints were terrible but worked extremely hard, the Dockers were an absolute shamples and will unlikely be that poor again. We will not be in the bottom few I expect.

Yep, I reckon we'll build slowly through the first semester. The seniors and juniors finding their mojos, and developing the game plan. We'll get beaten sure, but encouraging signs will prevail. Yeo, Culley, NN come back.
We may not be world beaters, but we'll be tracking away from last season's misery. Something you can hang your hat on?
Or on the flipside, it just keeps on being the same shambles and groundhog day returns = coach goes, a big shake up, get more good draft picks!
One game in, it's hard to predict anything without more form obviously.
Hows Schofield going as the midfield coach, we seeing changes? Probably to early to tell without Yeo+NN in..

 

[ziad]

Yep, I reckon we'll build slowly through the first semester. The seniors and juniors finding their mojos, and developing the game plan. We'll get beaten sure, but encouraging signs will prevail. Yeo, Culley, NN come back.
We may not be world beaters, but we'll be tracking away from last season's misery. Something you can hang your hat on?
Or on the flipside, it just keeps on being the same shambles and groundhog day returns = coach goes, a big shake up, get more good draft picks!
One game in, it's hard to predict anything without more form obviously.
Hows Schofield going as the midfield coach, we seeing changes? Probably to early to tell without Yeo+NN in..

Without Nic our mids are having to learn see ball get ball. Fine development, a bit of thinking would help as well. Schofield, I thought he would be great, give him time for players to settle and hone the gameplay. I think he has the hard edge we need, perhaps it came out at half time - there was a change.

 

[The wily weagle]

Without Nic our mids are having to learn see ball get ball.

You would think so, but don't hold your breath. We have long been useless at groundball because under Simpsons tenure (aside from Nic) we really have nobody that hurts the ball (or, is seemingly instructed to hunt it)
Rather, when the ball hits the deck and is in dispute everyone (from what I can tell) either tries to position themselves as the outlet runner without bothering to look at getting the football, or, stays on the outside to try to effect a turnover from the opposition's disposal. Which works ok against the lesser teams, but fails badly against teams with elite contested ball movement
It's been going on for a long time, and it's never been remedied

The only hope is we send in guys like Culley, Ginbey and Hewitt to play their natural contested game and hunt the football before it's coached out of them

 

[THE A5]

If Culleys not fit, bring Clark in. Big bodied inside mid at the coal face. Have more of TK and Sheed playing HF

I’m leaning with giving Chess another game. Optus is a bit bigger/wider stadium and hopefully we aren’t as atrocious in contested ball and are able to bring him into the game

 

[Yeahnahmate]

Agreed either way - if Chesser has earnt R1 spot keep him in. Don’t zap confidence now when we are trying to get runs into promising types. All four debutants should get a run of games and work out those that are dropped for form around that. I think Witho was an obvious out and XON if he was covering for Culley makes that a straight swap if my boy Jai is fit R2 which is seeming more likely

 

[Bestbird]

The most damning stat which has been a major worry for a while even when NicNat plays is the Stoppage Clearances. In this game it was 31 to 14, so only winning 3 out of 10. Hate to know what that stat was for the 2nd quarter.

IMO our ruck's are rarely 1st to the ball is part of the reason.

 

[Monocle]

Wow we're 11th.

Enjoy the moment, as it’s going to be the pinnacle of our ladder positioning in 2023.

 

[RedWeddingGuest]

Newbie here. It’s all been said, I reckon. Kids were fine, but they’re kids. Might be wrong, but they’ll have their ups and downs until they mature (and so will Sheezel). Our problem’s with our more experienced players. Everyone’s being very polite, but Gaff needs to go. Witherden and XON and JJ too. Simmo needs to take Tim Kelly

11

Tim Kelly

Age

29

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.6

5star

K

13.5

5star

HB

10.1

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

4.0

5star

CL

4.9

5star

D

19.9

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

7.6

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

4.7

5star

CL

3.6

4star

D

21.6

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.2

5star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.8

5star

CL

3.8

5star

aside and tell him some home truths. Rest just have to work harder. And give players like OA and TC a break: they’re returning from long stints away. They’ll improve quickly. Our problem is with blokes who will NEVER improve.

 

[RedWeddingGuest]

Newbie here. It’s all been said, I reckon. Kids were fine, but they’re kids. Might be wrong, but they’ll have their ups and downs until they mature (and so will Sheezel). Our problem’s with our more experienced players. Everyone’s being very polite, but Gaff needs to go. Witherden and XON and JJ too. Simmo needs to take Tim Kelly aside and tell him some home truths. Rest just have to work harder. And give players like OA and TC a break: they’re returning from long stints away. They’ll improve quickly. Our problem is with blokes who will NEVER improve.

Should have added Duggan in with Gaff, Witherden etc.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Newbie here. It’s all been said, I reckon. Kids were fine, but they’re kids. Might be wrong, but they’ll have their ups and downs until they mature (and so will Sheezel). Our problem’s with our more experienced players. Everyone’s being very polite, but Gaff needs to go. Witherden and XON and JJ too. Simmo needs to take Tim Kelly aside and tell him some home truths. Rest just have to work harder. And give players like OA and TC a break: they’re returning from long stints away. They’ll improve quickly. Our problem is with blokes who will NEVER improve.

Agree with everything except the JJ part.

Thought he was one of the bright spots on the weekend.

And welcome.

 

[bzparkes]

Bit Harsh on JJ, played quite well.

 

[RedWeddingGuest]

Agree with everything except the JJ part.

Thought he was one of the bright spots on the weekend.

And welcome.

Thanks, mate. Maybe I was too tough on JJ. But he only ever seems to play “quite well”. My worry is that we don’t have enough players who can take the next step: from okay to bloody good.

 

[wirra44]

Bit Harsh on JJ, played quite well.

Yeah definitely played his role

 

[WCEforeverman]

Newbie here. It’s all been said, I reckon. Kids were fine, but they’re kids. Might be wrong, but they’ll have their ups and downs until they mature (and so will Sheezel). Our problem’s with our more experienced players. Everyone’s being very polite, but Gaff needs to go. Witherden and XON and JJ too. Simmo needs to take Tim Kelly aside and tell him some home truths. Rest just have to work harder. And give players like OA and TC a break: they’re returning from long stints away. They’ll improve quickly. Our problem is with blokes who will NEVER improve.

You are new…

 

[bzparkes]

Thanks, mate. Maybe I was too tough on JJ. But he only ever seems to play “quite well”. My worry is that we don’t have enough players who can take the next step: from okay to bloody good.

Not everyone can be an A-grader. He's the right age profile for the list and he plays with effort/intent for the most part. May never be an A-grader but he's no lost-clogging plodder, from what I've seen.

 

[Campaigner for good]

I felt like the first half was very 2020-2022 esque. We kicked a few early goals as the opposition's defensive structures adapted to our chip mark style. Once they got set we were as impotent as (insert joke here).

In the second half I felt like we did start to play a faster game which resulted in a comeback. Hopefully this is a sign of things to come.

 

[Deplorable trumpster]

Get used to it.

On performance, he should have lost his job last year by R11 at latest.


Simpson is contracted to the end of 2025. The club won't be pulling any pins on a contract that large until the end of the 2024 season.

Regardless of how bad the record gets, he isn't leaving anytime soon.

The monster contract they gave him was totally unnecessary and is now an albatross around our necks. I suppose their argument was they were locking him in. But contracts with coaches are not worth very much from the club's POV. Coaches very rarely voluntarily leave clubs. Just as a starting point they would need a firm offer of another senior coaching job at another club to even think about it. Plus they usually have a sense of camaraderie and loyalty to the playing group that keeps them attached.

It has only hapenned 3 times that i can recall. Malthouse going to Collingwood, Lyon to Freo and Thompson to Essendon. And two of those three were under contract when they left. Meaning the contract was worthless from the club's POV. Imagine if Simpson went to the WCE Board last year and said he had a 5 year offer from North and he felt he needed a change of scenary or the players were tired of his voice or whatever and he wanted to take the North job and leave because his heart wasn't in it as far as being WCE coach anymore. Do you think the club would say "No, you are under contract, we demand that you stay and go through the motions and put in a half hearted effort at your job"? If he wanted to go we would have to let him go because the alternative would be having somebody in a senior position at the club who didn't want to be there and putting in less than 100%. That is the decision we had to make with Malthouse and Geelong made with Thompson. You can technically hold them to their contract but in that circumstance where they want to go then it is not in your interest to force them to stay. Players are different. It is in your interest to keep players under contract because if they want to go you can trade them and get a return, and if they are under contract the return is usually higher. But you can't trade a coach. Plus, if you hang on to a player who wants to go and he sulks and just goes through the motions you end up with one underperforming player on your list, if you hold on to a coach who doesn't want to be there then it affects the performance of the entire playing group.

My point being that long monster contracts with coaches are a stupid thing to do. Because they are very unlikely to leave voluntarily and if they do want to go then, even if they are under contract, you are going to have to let them go anyway. The only real world effect of a monster coaching contract is when the day comes when you have part ways with them (and one day you will part ways with them) the payout will be bigger. The contract extension for Simpson was dumb management. There was no upside to the club in doing this but there was considerable potential downside risk, as we are now discovering.

 

[Seadog]

The monster contract they gave him was totally unnecessary and is now an albatross around our necks. I suppose their argument was they were locking him in. But contracts with coaches are not worth very much from the club's POV. Coaches very rarely voluntarily leave clubs. Just as a starting point they would need a firm offer of another senior coaching job at another club to even think about it. Plus they usually have a sense of camaraderie and loyalty to the playing group that keeps them attached.

It has only hapenned 3 times that i can recall. Malthouse going to Collingwood, Lyon to Freo and Thompson to Essendon. And two of those three were under contract when they left. Meaning the contract was worthless from the club's POV. Imagine if Simpson went to the WCE Board last year and said he had a 5 year offer from North and he felt he needed a change of scenary or the players were tired of his voice or whatever and he wanted to take the North job and leave because his heart wasn't in it as far as being WCE coach anymore. Do you think the club would say "No, you are under contract, we demand that you stay and go through the motions and put in a half hearted effort at your job"? If he wanted to go we would have to let him go because the alternative would be having somebody in a senior position at the club who didn't want to be there and putting in less than 100%. That is the decision we had to make with Malthouse and Geelong made with Thompson. You can technically hold them to their contract but in that circumstance where they want to go then it is not in your interest to force them to stay. Players are different. It is in your interest to keep players under contract because if they want to go you can trade them and get a return, and if they are under contract the return is usually higher. But you can't trade a coach. Plus, if you hang on to a player who wants to go and he sulks and just goes through the motions you end up with one underperforming player on your list, if you hold on to a coach who doesn't want to be there then it affects the performance of the entire playing group.

My point being that long monster contracts with coaches are a stupid thing to do. Because they are very unlikely to leave voluntarily and if they do want to go then, even if they are under contract, you are going to have to let them go anyway. The only real world effect of a monster coaching contract is when the day comes when you have part ways with them (and one day you will part ways with them) the payout will be bigger. The contract extension for Simpson was dumb management. There was no upside to the club in doing this but there was considerable potential downside risk, as we are now discovering.

The upside is going through a rebuild without coach sacking speculation, I don't think it's much of an upside but the club apparently did.
I would assume they have left themselves an out in the contract which restricts the term of any payout. If they haven't well....ㄟ( ▔, ▔ )ㄏ

 

[Avalor]

Should have added Duggan in with Gaff, Witherden etc.

All fairly put, but not so with JJ. We need him on the field.