Review Round 8, 2023 - Carlton vs. Brisbane Lions

[Nathan Barley]

What is killing them really is botching the 2017 draft - Dow and O'Brien as top 10 picks is brutal given the other players they could have selected.

We've fluffed a few drafts now as well but our trading and drafting pre 2017 draft keeping us up the ladder

 

[Sanchez365]

Are they all white ? And privileged ? Do you think that affects their decision making on how to adjudicate footy rules ? I know their egos are a bit fragile.

Just to be clear here I'm talking about the AFL CEOs, not the umpires.

 

[Tom14]

We've fluffed a few drafts now as well but our trading and drafting pre 2017 draft keeping us up the ladder

When you say we've fluffed it, you are talking about picks in the late teens at the earliest though - other than Scache and Aish but that was pre 2017. Ely Smith definitely a bad pick, and Dev is probably on another list at the end of the year, but neither is even close to as bad as stuffing up two top 10 picks in the same draft.

 

[martinson]

Just to be clear here I'm talking about the AFL CEOs, not the umpires.

Yes I knew you were talking about the AFL.

 

[Hollow Knight]

What is killing them really is botching the 2017 draft - Dow and O'Brien as top 10 picks is brutal given the other players they could have selected.

Then screwed their 2019 draft because Silvagni wanted to be one of the first guys to go all in on a live trade in 2018 to get Liam Stocker who went on to do bugger all for them.

Lost a mid first rounder that could have got them Kosi Pickett.

 

[martinson]

When you say we've fluffed it, you are talking about picks in the late teens at the earliest though - other than Scache and Aish but that was pre 2017. Ely Smith definitely a bad pick, and Dev is probably on another list at the end of the year, but neither is even close to as bad as stuffing up two top 10 picks in the same draft.

It turns out Aish is quite a serviceable player. But obviously we didn't see the flight risk which given his pedigree was pretty much a given.

It's not that easy. We've made a few blues , overall probably doing better than a lot of teams.

 

[Tom14]

It turns out Aish is quite a serviceable player. But obviously we didn't see the flight risk which given his pedigree was pretty much a given.

It's not that easy. We've made a few blues , overall probably doing better than a lot of teams.

Aish is a fine enough player, but a disappointment for a pick 7 given he's really just serviceable and not dynamic at all. Could argue we should be disappointed in Rayner as a pick 1 but can still see the highs/upside for him.

 

[Viceregal]

Forgot to give a special mention to one of Carton's role players who was just outclassed on his run-with job on Dunkley... Patrick somebody ... can't remember his name but probably not important considering how little impact he had on the game.

 

[Jivlain]

The AFL will tell you it is because they need to encourage more people signing up to become umpires, but I’m not sure reducing accountability is the appropriate way to drive recruitment.

Imagine if other occupations that face recruitment challenges like police, nurses and teachers started saying “we need to protect them from so much scrutiny and accountability in order to ensure more people apply”.

The key for recruitment while maintaining standards is to keep positions accountable while offering improved pay and conditions. As long as the AFL shies away from making umpiring at the top level a full time profession, we will be stuck where we are now.

Abuse of umpires should never be tolerated, but I think coaches (after games) and commentators (during and after) should be able to constructively critique decisions. The cringeworthy silence by commentators after umpires make howlers just increases the frustration. The criticism should always be measured and acknowledge the fact that umpires are human and that it is a very hard game to officiate perfectly, but the silence and censorship is frustrating.

I think to a degree it's also cover for themselves, the nature of the rule changes over the last several years has been to make Australian football a much more difficult game to adjudicate - and it wasn't an easy one previously.

I would like to see a degree of simplification - e.g. less emphasis on judging intent, less direct involvement in the game (bouncing, stand rule).

I think if you make the job of umpiring easier you free the umpires up to make the calls they need to be making.

 

[Viceregal]

re the ball coming out in the tackle ... in league I believe that would be called lousy ball security.

 

[buttermuffs]

I feel like this in conjunction with the changes that Grasshopper mentioned is the way to go.

It's bush league stuff that this hasn't been handled, for a game that's spending 250mil to build a stadium, they could easily in an "umpires academy" that runs, trains and then provides umpires for the different major competitions around the country.

It's one of the reasons I'm disappointed with the new AFL CEO appointment, probably just going to be more of the same from a guy that's learnt his stripes under Demetrio and McLachlan

There is an umpiring academy in Queensland and so I would assume there would be others in that he other states as well. They train with the Brisbane based AFL, VFL and QAFL umpires and have their own coaches who do game reviews and more. They are involved in all the theory work that the higher level umpires in the state do as well.

There was also an AFL rookie umpire list until last year until most were promoted following the four umpire system introduction. There were usually multiple rookie listed Brisbane based field umpires but all the main listed field umpires typically moved to Melbourne after a year on the main list. There are listed boundary and goal umpires in the state permanently though who usually do the Brisbane and Gold Coast games each time.

This following part isn’t having a go at you specifically but I feel like people equate a lack of umpire participation to a lack of resources and infrastructure for their to be more. Even though it could be better, the simple fact is that lower level umpires usually do the job because they enjoy it not because of its measly pay. Abuse is not a part they enjoy and it deters many from continuing or signing up.

There’s only so much you can do when most of your workforce are secondary/tertiary students or have full time jobs. Yet there are still academies and multiple training sessions each week with additional match reviews all on top of possibly losing half your weekend due to actually umpiring the games.


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[The Zork]

Then screwed their 2019 draft because Silvagni wanted to be one of the first guys to go all in on a live trade in 2018 to get Liam Stocker who went on to do bugger all for them.

Lost a mid first rounder that could have got them Kosi Pickett.

Who is just about the exact player they need

 

[buttermuffs]

There is an umpiring academy in Queensland and so I would assume there would be others in that he other states as well. They train with the Brisbane based AFL, VFL and QAFL umpires and have their own coaches who do game reviews and more. They are involved in all the theory work that the higher level umpires in the state do as well.

There was also an AFL rookie umpire list until last year until most were promoted following the four umpire system introduction. There were usually multiple rookie listed Brisbane based field umpires but all the main listed field umpires typically moved to Melbourne after a year on the main list. There are listed boundary and goal umpires in the state permanently though who usually do the Brisbane and Gold Coast games each time.

This following part isn’t having a go at you specifically but I feel like people equate a lack of umpire participation to a lack of resources and infrastructure for their to be more. Even though it could be better, the simple fact is that lower level umpires usually do the job because they enjoy it not because of its measly pay. Abuse is not a part they enjoy and it deters many from continuing or signing up.

There’s only so much you can do when most of your workforce are secondary/tertiary students or have full time jobs. Yet there are still academies and multiple training sessions each week with additional match reviews all on top of possibly losing half your weekend due to actually umpiring the games.


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To add to myself if anyone ever wants to complain about community level umpiring they can shove it. Heard plenty of players love to talk shit about them while butchering a two metre handball or a twenty metre kick. If you can play consistent then don’t be a hypocrite and yell at the volunteer umpire for doing the same.


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[Mr Ripper]

The biggest problem with umpiring is the bullshit they get fed from above. It’s like they’re getting home schooled by flat earthers.

 

[M Malice]

The last 3-4 minutes of this when Robbo was in the room with the boys after the game was nice... the rest Meh.

 

[Viceregal]

Perhaps every player should be required to officiate a lower level game a few times so they can appreciate how hard it is and how much 'fun' the 'crowd interactions' are ...

 

[NeverEddie]

Intrigued by 2 & 3.

1 makes me wonder if it fundamentally disincentivises the act of winning the ball, encouraging players to let their opponent grab it then immediately tackle.

I prefer to keep prior opportunity but put some clearer . . .more black and white rules around it.

1) a 360 spin without disposal IS prior opportunity
2) if you are tackled to the ground without disposing . . .you've had prior opportunity
3) if take 2 steps without disposing, you've had prior
4) if you duck or fend or attempt to evade . . .you've had prior

If you've had prior . . . and then the ball is then knocked out in a tackle . . . .incorrect disposal

 

[Elixuh]

Even David King is talking us up on First Crack.

In the past this group has seemed to be an almost there product and that to get to the end of the road everyone has to play out of their skin and do all this special stuff.

I think that mentality has changed and the group has bought in (and now has belief through results) that a team defence mindset will actually produce results for us and that you get just as many opportunities if not more playing this way. The belief is building I can feel it in my bones.

 

[Nunez]

Even David King is talking us up on First Crack.

In the past this group has seemed to be an almost there product and that to get to the end of the road everyone has to play out of their skin and do all this special stuff.

I think that mentality has changed and the group has bought in (and now has belief through results) that a team defence mindset will actually produce results for us and that you get just as many opportunities if not more playing this way. The belief is building I can feel it in my bones.

You should get that checked out.

 

[Elixuh]

You should get that checked out.

You’ve been dead to me since you changed your avatar

 

[Nunez]

You’ve been dead to me since you changed your avatar

 

[Sanchez365]

There is an umpiring academy in Queensland and so I would assume there would be others in that he other states as well. They train with the Brisbane based AFL, VFL and QAFL umpires and have their own coaches who do game reviews and more. They are involved in all the theory work that the higher level umpires in the state do as well.

There was also an AFL rookie umpire list until last year until most were promoted following the four umpire system introduction. There were usually multiple rookie listed Brisbane based field umpires but all the main listed field umpires typically moved to Melbourne after a year on the main list. There are listed boundary and goal umpires in the state permanently though who usually do the Brisbane and Gold Coast games each time.

This following part isn’t having a go at you specifically but I feel like people equate a lack of umpire participation to a lack of resources and infrastructure for their to be more. Even though it could be better, the simple fact is that lower level umpires usually do the job because they enjoy it not because of its measly pay. Abuse is not a part they enjoy and it deters many from continuing or signing up.

There’s only so much you can do when most of your workforce are secondary/tertiary students or have full time jobs. Yet there are still academies and multiple training sessions each week with additional match reviews all on top of possibly losing half your weekend due to actually umpiring the games.


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Certainly didn't know about the academies, so glad to hear that is already happening.

I know you weren't having a go, but just to clarify while I think the umpiring is inconsistent and frustrating to watch, to me it stems from the laws of the game being written poorly, rather then the umpires themselves being bad at their jobs.

I do think it's ridiculous to have a professional league that doesn't have full-time employees on the books as umpires.

 

[Paul Mac]

Just re watched the 3rd quarter and the importance of our forwards just creating a contest and bringing the ball to ground showed how dangerous we are around goals with the ball on the ground.

 

[buttermuffs]

Certainly didn't know about the academies, so glad to hear that is already happening.

I know you weren't having a go, but just to clarify while I think the umpiring is inconsistent and frustrating to watch, to me it stems from the laws of the game being written poorly, rather then the umpires themselves being bad at their jobs.

I do think it's ridiculous to have a professional league that doesn't have full-time employees on the books as umpires.

To be fair they all get paid well enough for it to be full time I just wonder whether they aren’t doing enough theory. I know all AFL umpires get every single part of their game dissected from positioning to communication to decision making. I know from one umpire that they usually also re watch the games of the two teams they umpire next during the week and takes notes. My memory is a tad shoddy though on it but I remember thinking it was a lot of extra work to do one top of your normal job already.

I think full time for AFL umpires I think can only make things better. However, if they want to fix the low participation issues, they should look at paying the lower level games (especially community and junior levels) more. The crack down on abuse alongside this will make for a much more appealing choice for people and especially parents for their kids.




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[buttermuffs]

To be fair they all get paid well enough for it to be full time I just wonder whether they aren’t doing enough theory. I know all AFL umpires get every single part of their game dissected from positioning to communication to decision making. I know from one umpire that they usually also re watch the games of the two teams they umpire next during the week and takes notes. My memory is a tad shoddy though on it but I remember thinking it was a lot of extra work to do one top of your normal job already.

I think full time for AFL umpires I think can only make things better. However, if they want to fix the low participation issues, they should look at paying the lower level games (especially community and junior levels) more. The crack down on abuse alongside this will make for a much more appealing choice for people and especially parents for their kids.




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Also I know there’s a lot of old farts around here ;p and I would encourage you to see if your kids are ever interested in having a go. Personally it was a great experience for me and you learn a lot from it. From some paperwork to multitasking to effective and efficient communication as well as consistent weekly exercise. Was a good little bit of work while I was at school and while I didn’t save a whole lot the pay is decent for a teenager doing one weeknight training and weekend games.


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