Ryan Gardner is a good footballer - post your apologies here

[_Mike_]

Is personnel an issue? Sure, is it the only issue? Not a chance

somethings a miss when you see players with their heads down and ICBF’d attitude.

our defensive system is so poor that not only do we not intercept, we’re also so badly set up that we can’t even get close enough to the opposition to force a contest to be registered as a one on one, resulting in a huge amount of uncontested marks inside defensive 50

the defensive setup relies on bringing the ball to ground, Daniel or Richards kicking/handballing out to a rebounding defender such as Dale to kick it long up the ground. With no Daniel, Richards it then falls to Keath or Gardner to spoil hoping that Williams or Dale can pick up the slack. Keath has had niggling issues this season and he’s been left with support from Gardner who struggles in 1v1s against big bodied KPFs. Cameron towelled him a few weeks back in the Geelong game.

Still some are against the idea of giving Astro a run at CHB. He can contest, read the play, can take a good mark, spoil, has a good leap, long kick and up field vision and defensive ability. Had BigFooty been around in 95/96 I wonder if posters would have lost their s**t when Grant went to CHB in 96, coming close to 2 Charlie’s in the process.

 

[Fossie 32]

somethings a miss when you see players with their heads down and ICBF’d attitude.

That's a big call! When have you noticed that? I would hope it's more not feeling happy about being on the end of a big loss than 'ICBF' ???

 

[_Mike_]

That's a big call! When have you noticed that? I would hope it's more not feeling happy about being on the end of a big loss than 'ICBF' ???

there were a few games, watching the Geelong game gave that feeling.

 

[BEaston]

I've asked this in other places but what constitutes a one on one? He is quite often starting in a one on one and then gets lead to the ball. So the one on one's he gets to might be ok, but he doesn't get to too many. Yes he has taken a couple of what would be termed intercept marks recently but to look at his actually marking and possession stats isn't showing anything as he is dropping deep and getting the cheap kick out the back.

I think we need to accept that Ryan is at his ceiling, trys hard yep, is he ever going to be up to the best, nope. We are not talking a 20 year old kid, he was on the Geelong list for 3 years and couldn't get a game and now with us for nearly 3 complete seasons. Where does the improvement come from?

The frustrating thing is that is it all in with him with regards to being picked this year, doesn't matter what he does he doesn't get dropped. Watch Schache get dropped this week and be banished again.

We desperately need an intercept defender and the list we have doesn't have one on it at this stage.

Not sure you can say he's at his ceiling, he's improved year on year since getting to the dogs. This year included.

 

[BEaston]

Another factor you have to consider is Gardner has generally been given the best forward this year, Keath was given the best forward last year generally. Keath's one on one percentage is about the same as this year for what it's worth.

I tend to agree though, teams appear to be cutting through us too easily this year and getting better looks in our forward line. I still don't understand why we back away from the mark especially when it's in our defensive half of the ground. Were we doing this last year?

On face value the outside 5 seems to be causing a lot of issues for our defence. It's the biggest change from last year in how we're setting up defensively.

 

[BEaston]

Listen to yourself. If Gardner is less than half the player Harris Andrews is, why do we want him as a regular in our team in essentially the same role?
How is that going to help us win?

Perception is a wonderful thing, it is quite difficult to try to eliminate bias in judgements and maintain as much objectivity as possible.
I recognise that I have a bit of a positive bias towards Zaine, which largely results from that fact that I have watched him closely for years as a Bulldog supporter, and appreciate his approach to the game, which is a very team oriented one as opposed to the selfish stat protecting approach taken by many players. Does he have his weaknesses and make occasional mistakes, sure, but does also he do a far larger amount of team beneficial activities that the average supporter overlooks, absolutely!! If you look at Zaine's performance in the 2016 GF and PF, his contests and knock-ons arguably had as much impact as his actual possessions.

Zaine has a tendency to back his judgement and his skills and take risks to try to generate positive outcomes for the team, but these risks don't always work in his favour.

In Ryan's case, he seems to be a strictly follow my pre-programmed instructions type of player (e.g. going for the spoil) regardless of the specific situational circumstances. They both work hard and I'm sure Zaine would annoy Bevo more than Ryan because coaches love control and he is more prone to deviate from instruction but I know which one I would choose first to go into battle with.

Stats can be useful, but also often misleading, because distilling complicated actions down to single numbers involves the removal of all the contextual information. What constitutes a 1v1 contest as far as the statistician is concerned, and what constitutes success. As an avid follower of the Bulldogs I watch each game with my own eyes, and they have shown me plenty of evidence regarding Ryan's success or lack there of in marking contests against a direct opponent.

Sure he's not on the level as probably the best key stopper in the league. Nobody is saying he is. I don't think anyone is saying they want him in the team at all cost either. Currently he's our best option for the role, and possibly people hold some optimism he'll continue to improve.

We know you're biased, you make up narratives to fit your argument. We all watch all the games, nothing special there. Stats only record what's happened on the field, nothing more.

 

[BEaston]

This is simply not true. Gardner rarely takes responsibility for the best opposition forward, even when he seems a natural match up. When he occasionally finds himself on the best forward he typically gets exploited.

False.

 

[BEaston]

Gardner only contested 23 defensive 1v1s last year. About 100 less than those two defenders. Worth noting that we were 8-1 in the 9 games Gardner played and in his 6 H&A games 5 were against non-finalists. Two of the finals he played we won by over 8 goals. 2020 and 2022 his loss rate is 30%+. Last year is an outlier.

He was a liability in 2020, no argument there. I think he's shown real growth since... I don't think there's a valid explanation you're putting forward here for the difference between last year and this year that's attributable to Gardner himself. I believe if he were playing in our defensive scheme from last year his 1v1 rate would be similar this year.
I don't think it's sound logic to say his rate was better in 2020 because we won those games he played, rather than saying his win rate helped us win the games. One of those statements has a clear logical correlation, the other is a lot more murky.

 

[Proffessor]

Context matters, as does accuracy.

• He had 6 spoils in the first quarter, not 4. They certainly didn't all go straight to a Lions player:
  • First went straight to the boundary. McCluggage got a boot to it before it crossed and got a behind.
  • Second stopped a clear mark to McStay against Bedendo. Went straight to Rhylee West.
  • Third went to a Brisbane player under pressure and resulted in a stoppage.
  • Fourth went straight past Macrae's fingers to a Brisbane player who kicked it inside 50 to a contest that resulted in a goal. Of course if we're blaming Gardner for that then we're blaming about 7 other Dogs players who were involved during/after the spoil too.
  • Fifth went straight to Tim O'Brien.
  • Sixth stopped a clear mark to Charlie Cameron against Anthony Scott. Ball dropped to a Brisbane player, resulted in a stoppage.
• In none of those contests was a Bulldog player about to mark instead of Gardner's spoil. In 2 of them a Brisbane player was about to mark against their opponent. In just one of them it looked like Gardner was in a realistic position to try to mark - though Schache would've likely spoiled that one.
• Gardner wasn't involved in the play leading up to Daniher's shot that hit the post - at all. No idea how you got that impression. Keath got sucked into the contest and left Daniher free. Gardner watching Hipwood, and then peeled off to help in the goal square as Daniher took the shot.
• A scrubby kick from a defender that goes out of bounds rather than being a turnover is always considered a win. Us losing the following clearance isn't on Gardner. Also worth mentioning he got that kick because he came off his player to help Scott against Cameron.
• None of this explains what Cordy would have done better.

I assume you're not deliberately making things up. If you're interested in adding some basis of reality to your opinions, you can actually check footage of each of a player's stats on the AFL app. Just go to their profile, scroll down to highlights, choose the match you want to see and select extended highlights. That'll give you footage of everything they did, from goals to spoils to score launches.

Mate, I think you need serious help. Talk about making things up to fit your skewed perspective and then trying to project your sins onto others.

For starters, when did I suggest any of the Bulldog players were about to mark? I just suggested it didn't look like a Lions player would because we already had a Bulldog players there contesting. Nor did I blame Gardner for subsequent events, I was just pointing them out to show that spoiling doesn't necessarily result in positive outcomes.

First spoil went to McCluggage who had a shot for goal, consistent with my post. Does it matter whether he kicked it out of the air? The behind counted as would have a goal had he kicked one.

I admit I initially overlooked what you described as the second spoil (I blame my kayo being a bit jumpy when fast forwarding through the boring bits), but I wouldn't say McStay was clearly going to take the mark as when the ball arrived he was still trying to get his hands up out of Bedendo's back. BTW that contest wasn't anything I'd be bragging about if I was Ryan Gardner or one of his supporters. In fact this contest completely fits my narrative because Ryan had the perfect sit to take the mark but chose instead to double fist it away! Good thing West was there to pick up the crumb.

Next spoil went to Lachie Neal who got a free kick (not a stoppage), as people crashed over the top of him, again consistent with my post.

Gardner's kick which I generously described as a 'scrubby kick that ended up with an out of bounds stoppage' actually went straight to a lions player who would have marked it but for a desperate Lachie Hunter spoil which got it to the boundary.

Next spoil went straight to McCarthy who kicked the ball to the goal square setting up Charlie Cameron to kick the Lion's first goal.

FYI Daniher hit the post more than once in the 1st quarter. The instance that I was describing occurred with about 4:33 left in the quarter, Gardner left Daniher to run forward and attempt a spoil, a Brisbane free kick resulted from the contest, quickly taken by McStay to Joe all by himself for a shot at goal which hit the post exactly as I indicated in my post.

What you claim as a spoil to Tim O'Brien is extreme wishful thinking, Gardner and Williams both contested the ball and any contact made by one of them with the ball was minimal as it went over the back without significant deviation to O'Brien. Trying to give that to Ryan as a stat is beyond desperate.

The last spoil against Cameron, (contact also not very clear could have been Scott but if we're being generous we can give it to Ryan) the ball was collected directly by Berry who had a quick snap kick which ended up with a stoppage on the edge of the Brisbane goal square.

So in summary you are talking complete crap. You made things up in unsuccessfully trying to criticise my post, I on the other hand accidentally and unintentionally overlooked a contest that actually supported my argument. So thanks for that.

For the sake of correctness I have now slightly edited my earlier post. You may wish to do the same although there may not be a lot left of it.

 

[Just Watching]

Gardner is a truly wonderful third tall defender option. Can play tall, small and medium relatively comfortably.

The issue is if he is playing on the first or second forward. If we can recruit another defender (or Darcy goes there) he would be so valuable as a third defender alongside AK.

 

[DognBones]

The thread title states that Gardner is a good footballer. In a team that has no depth whatsoever in KPDs ( Cordy is well and truly yesterday's man IMO), he is doing his best within his obvious limitations. Should he be replaced next year by a more competent player (if we can find one)? Most probably. Will he be handy as a backup defender going forward? Certainly.
I can't describe him as a good footballer but he is adequate in his role when no other options exist.
One further point: the fact that Keath has not shown his previous composure and surety this season impacts the confidence and effectiveness of other defenders around him, including Gardner.

 

[TiAn_]

He was a liability in 2020, no argument there. I think he's shown real growth since... I don't think there's a valid explanation you're putting forward here for the difference between last year and this year that's attributable to Gardner himself. I believe if he were playing in our defensive scheme from last year his 1v1 rate would be similar this year.
I don't think it's sound logic to say his rate was better in 2020 because we won those games he played, rather than saying his win rate helped us win the games. One of those statements has a clear logical correlation, the other is a lot more murky.

Last year he played more frequently against lesser opposition (half his games we won by 28+), and his loss rate was much lower than in the surrounding years where that wasn’t the case. I don’t have game by game data. Even what you express as your belief suggests that unless he’s protected by a better system in a more successful side he reverts to below average 1v1.

 

[dogwatch]

…
One further point: the fact that Keath has not shown his previous composure and surety this season impacts the confidence and effectiveness of other defenders around him, including Gardner.

Or is it the other way around? i.e. The lack of confidence and effectiveness of other defenders around him has affected Keath’s composure and surety? (This in turn could feed back on them and create a downward spiral of the whole defence).

Genuine question. I don’t know the answer and I’m not sure anyone else here would. It’s a possibility we have to consider.

 

[Next Waiting]

I think Gards gets a bad wrap for losing contests that none of our other defenders would get to (especially those on a lead). He has very good closing speed so he can get with cooee, maybe even body, on the likes of Cameron and Lynch et al on the lead.

He's not going to win them all, maybe not even most of them, but he can apply some pressure and is at least a chance.....versus no chance.

 

[Cookie]

So now it's his fault that Hipwood gets off with only a fine.
Bloke's cursed.

 

[immortalmike]

So now it's his fault that Hipwood gets off with only a fine.
Bloke's cursed.

I mean the incident might not have happened if he had some core strength.

 

[Dogs Rule]

I cast my mind back to the likes of Kretiuk and Southern and whether they would have put up with a weedy weasel like Hipwood doing that to them without depositing Hipwood's skull in the tenth row.

 

[_Mike_]

I cast my mind back to the likes of Kretiuk and Southern and whether they would have put up with a weedy weasel like Hipwood doing that to them without depositing Hipwood's skull in the tenth row.

Add Toohey, Campbell, Kennedy, McPherson to that list.

 

[Timewillcome]

The thread title states that Gardner is a good footballer. In a team that has no depth whatsoever in KPDs ( Cordy is well and truly yesterday's man IMO), he is doing his best within his obvious limitations. Should he be replaced next year by a more competent player (if we can find one)? Most probably. Will he be handy as a backup defender going forward? Certainly.
I can't describe him as a good footballer but he is adequate in his role when no other options exist.
One further point: the fact that Keath has not shown his previous composure and surety this season impacts the confidence and effectiveness of other defenders around him, including Gardner.

I agree with you and we should be looking to upgrade as you have stated but my issue is that the coaching panel don't appear to hold this view, they overrate his ability and his potential and will not even look to replace him with a traded player of greater ability.

We have a weak backline that leaks goals, having this guy in demonstrates how thin we are there. I doubt he would not get a regular game in any other top 8 team. Solid VFL player who we should only see due to injury of other players.

 

[Al dente]

Add Toohey, Campbell, Kennedy, McPherson to that list.

and Dent

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

I have zero expectations of anything positive happening when Gardner is in the play whether offensively or defensively and for the majority of the season he has managed to not meet those expectations.

I can't believe he hasnt been dropped once this year, whereas so many other players have had to spend time in the VFL

 

[Foxman98]

I have zero expectations of anything positive happening when Gardner is in the play whether offensively or defensively and for the majority of the season he has managed to not meet those expectations.

I can't believe he hasnt been dropped once this year, whereas so many other players have had to spend time in the VFL

Who would he be dropped for? We have Cordy in the 2s wo is even worse and that's it

 

[Relic Dog]

could have been dropped to give lewis young

33

Lewis Young

Age

25

Ht

202cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.6

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

MG

197.9

3star

D

4.0

1star

K

3.0

1star

HB

1.0

1star

M

3.0

3star

T

0.0

1star

MG

26.0

1star

D

14.4

4star

K

8.2

4star

HB

6.2

4star

M

6.4

5star

T

2.0

4star

MG

181.6

3star

a good run at it ...oh wait

 

[Chalky White]

Sure he's not on the level as probably the best key stopper in the league. Nobody is saying he is. I don't think anyone is saying they want him in the team at all cost either. Currently he's our best option for the role, and possibly people hold some optimism he'll continue to improve.

We know you're biased, you make up narratives to fit your argument. We all watch all the games, nothing special there. Stats only record what's happened on the field, nothing more.

He's not even at the level of the second worst. He is the worst by a long long way

 

[TiAn_]

Stat comp of Gardner and Young just gave me a good chuckle: Footywire Player Comparison

Aside from 15m gained and 0.1 marks and bounces a week, somehow the only stats Gardner is leading Young in are frees against, clangers and turnovers