Suicide

[_Christoh_]

So its better to just say they are weak and should just get over their funk

Stigmas are perpetuated by the ignorant.

 

[nicky]

One thing that i have learnt through some people in my life with mental illness. There isn't a 'fail safe' institution ready to assist anyone who needs it. You can admit you need help, go out and seek all the resources available to you (even with private cover) and not be helped satisfactorily. People with serious mental illness are often put in the "too hard" basket by professional consensus. I'm not trying to blame mental health professionals. They're under enormous pressure and if the needs of patients can't be helped within the constraints of time available then those resources will be redirected to those whose illness can.
So people who require intervention and help for a mental illness better cross their fingers that their diagnosis and treatment is straightforward because there isn't a psychiatrist equivalent to 'House' at every psych hospital.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Its not weakness you fool its an inability to cope. Its an inability to find a way out from how they are feeling. Its having a range of problems that seem unmanageable. Its trying everything they can muster to feel better and not being able to. It can be guilt that is untolerable, it can be just having a shit life from day one. I really wish people didn't commit suicide but those who do are anything but weak, do you think its easy to kill yourself?? Ask yourself that.




On the outside to others some people seem like they have the world at their feet or they have a grasp on life but sometimes inside they believe they are a complete failure or loser, their self perception is skewed. The majority of the time there is a physical reason within the brain responsible for this, sometimes its self esteem, sometimes its underlying issues that stem from problems in development from a child to an adult, sometimes it comes from abusive relationships from parents, siblings, family, friends or strangers.



Doesn't mean what they are experiencing is any less real and in fact makes them feel even worse for not appreciating that they materially have it better than millions of others. Some people dont measure their worth based on the things they own or how big their bank account is or what car they drive. Some people are emotionally based and when things go wrong their emotions start to dictate their thinking.



That's situational depression, you need to also factor in that our society says that if you make a mistake or do wrong by others you should feel bad and guilty about it. Situational depression can be worked through and isn't long term but is just as real as any other type of depression.

People who suffer depression find no enjoyment in life, have low opinions of themselves and sometimes have had so many failures or bad experiences in life that they simply don't have the will to continue. Surprisingly they think that no one could possibly understand how they feel or are too embarrassed to seek help on their issues as people like you would find it trivial. The worst thing you can do to someone who is feeling down or depressed is judge them. The best thing you can do is try and understand them. They dont need people to fix them they just need to know that someone cares enough to listen and support them through what they are having trouble dealing with.

Don't judge
UNDERSTAND!!

You completely misunderstood what I said, I was asked My opinion of suicide, I gave it. My reasons for this would take pages to fully explained its based on my entire life's experience.

Now I don't go out telling all and sundry that depression is just a character flaw or that suicide's are just just mentally weak, because as I said in the beginning that's pretty slack. And I know it upsets people, but this is an open forum I was asked what "I" thought of suicides I gave it.

I'm far from claiming any great insight or to be an authority on the matter and I'm not advocating that others should view suicide the way I do.

I would very much like to understand depressed people I really would but I can't, I don't have it in me believe I've tried.

It simply doesn't make any sense to me, it's not about what wealth they have or possessions I'm talking in the vast majority of cases they don't have a hard life they have people they can turn to for support understanding very little real reasons for stress and yet I'm supposed to feel sympathy for their plight?

It's my failing I understand that but I the more I've gotten to know the few cases of supposed clinically depressed people that I have in my years the less sympathy I've had for them.

In one case I was utterly disgusted by the person. Thankfully he pulled through it, but to here was this this person talking to us about the risks of becoming depressed. and readjusting to normal life and then he went on at length about how he became depressed for years simply because he gave up professional sport?

I'm sorry but I don't get it, you say it's an inability to cope, not weakness. I don't make a distinction their the same thing to me.

You've gone on at length about how they view themselves and how hard they find life, but the majority of that is in there head it's not real.

I understand I compound the problem (I believe I even said that) by having the point of view that I do, and thankfully society as a whole isn't as callous as I am. But someone ask's me for my opinion on it and I'll give it. Right or wrong.

 

[Caesar]

Just because something is in somebody's head does not necessarily make it any less real.

I find it curious that your acknowledged lack of understanding manifests itself as intolerance. Do you have a similarly hostile reaction to everything that you don't understand?

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Just because something is in somebody's head does not necessarily make it any less real.

I find it curious that your acknowledged lack of understanding manifests itself as intolerance. Do you have a similarly hostile reaction to everything that you don't understand?

Any less real to them, but actual reality wise?

Usually the complete opposite, I'm curious by nature and often feel inept when I'm unable to grasp something. but that only drives me to try harder to understand whatever I'm confronted with, but this subject is different I don't know why.

 

[Caesar]

Any less real to them, but actual reality wise?

Same thing, really. Reality is no more than what we perceive it to be.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Same thing, really. Reality is no more than what we perceive it to be.

True but it's frustrates me to no end to hear someone talk about how hard life is for them, I mean their not in Somalia life simply isn't that bad, And like it or not it can always get worse.

Their inability to gain some perspective to 'snap out of it' I guess is what annoys me most. these aren't real problems, they are only perceived problems.

It's a POV.

 

[raskolnikov]

I recently had a good mate commit suicide. I made a thread about it on the SRP board if you want to read it. The thread is called Religion and Sexuality. As much as it hurt I don't see him as weak or selfish. Noone can truly understand the state of mind of someone who commits suicide. They're beyond thinking, "This is really going to hurt my family and friends".

 

[Caesar]

True but it's frustrates me to no end to hear someone talk about how hard life is for them, I mean their not in Somalia life simply isn't that bad, And like it or not it can always get worse.

Their inability to gain some perspective to 'snap out of it' I guess is what annoys me most. these aren't real problems, they are only perceived problems.

It's a POV.

You acknowledge that someone's perception is their reality, and then in the next sentence make a distinction between real and perceived problems. Can you see the issue?

 

[Run n Spread]

True but it's frustrates me to no end to hear someone talk about how hard life is for them, I mean their not in Somalia life simply isn't that bad, And like it or not it can always get worse.

Their inability to gain some perspective to 'snap out of it' I guess is what annoys me most. these aren't real problems, they are only perceived problems.

It's a POV.

True to a point, I can see where you are coming from. Fact is no one wants to hear anyone else complain, they have their own issues and fact is it will just annoy them after a while. People who are feeling depressed are generally in a pretty fragile state of mind and the last thing they need is a lecture. Hence why I question the talk about it mantra that seems so popular.

The bit about perspective I don't get. People can take a broad view I guess and people's situations are unique to themselves. Someone in Somalia is no doubt doing it very hard but the culture and circumstance is foreign to somewhere like Australia. What's comparing their circumstance to Somalia going to do? Fire them up somehow?

Also suicide happens across all cultures in all the world. Out of date stats but I read somewhere that countries at war have the highest suicide rate in the world with up to 50% suffering from PTSD. So are you suggesting that their is circumstance where depression is more justified than another?

 

[Gough]

True but it's frustrates me to no end to hear someone talk about how hard life is for them, I mean their not in Somalia life simply isn't that bad, And like it or not it can always get worse.

Their inability to gain some perspective to 'snap out of it' I guess is what annoys me most. these aren't real problems, they are only perceived problems.

It's a POV.

You don't give the brain anywhere near the credit it deserves.

 

[nonetheless]

True but it's frustrates me to no end to hear someone talk about how hard life is for them, I mean their not in Somalia life simply isn't that bad, And like it or not it can always get worse.

Their inability to gain some perspective to 'snap out of it' I guess is what annoys me most. these aren't real problems, they are only perceived problems.

It's a POV.

I admit I have not read this thread in its entirety, but from what I have read it may be wise to broaden your understanding of mental illness. At the very least, your friend might appreciate your acknowledgement that whilst quitting professional sport may have precipitated the onset of his illness, there may have been a series of prodromal symptoms.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

True to a point, I can see where you are coming from. Fact is no one wants to hear anyone else complain, they have their own issues and fact is it will just annoy them after a while. People who are feeling depressed are generally in a pretty fragile state of mind and the last thing they need is a lecture. Hence why I question the talk about it mantra that seems so popular.

Disagree on that talking about things even hard things is healthy even I with my views on this would have no hesitation to refer to someone to something like beyond blue, I would never seek to lecture them on anything because it doesn't help them.
But I do agree after a while it gets grating.

The bit about perspective I don't get. People can take a broad view I guess and people's situations are unique to themselves. Someone in Somalia is no doubt doing it very hard but the culture and circumstance is foreign to somewhere like Australia. What's comparing their circumstance to Somalia going to do? Fire them up somehow?

But that's the point. it's being self absorbed in your own problems that lead to believing they are bigger then they are, take a look outside yourself realise just how hard other people have it and suddenly your problems don't seem so bad, that's because for the most part they're not.

[qoute] Also suicide happens across all cultures in all the world. Out of date stats but I read somewhere that countries at war have the highest suicide rate in the world with up to 50% suffering from PTSD. So are you suggesting that their is circumstance where depression is more justified than another?[/quote]

Absolutely! That's those times when you go ****, mate I don't know what to say I couldn't even begin to imagine how you must be feeling.

 

[nicky]

True but it's frustrates me to no end to hear someone talk about how hard life is for them, I mean their not in Somalia life simply isn't that bad, And like it or not it can always get worse.

Their inability to gain some perspective to 'snap out of it' I guess is what annoys me most. these aren't real problems, they are only perceived problems.

It's a POV.

It's becoming more and more apparent with each post that you have no idea what you're talking about. First you claim to understand the distinction between clinical and situational depression. Then in the bold you're saying that a clinically depressed person has the ability to assess their "problems" and put them into perspective. You can be depressed without it being caused by problems.

I truly hope the depressed people in your life aren't relying on you for anything because you don't understand mental illness at all.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

It's becoming more and more apparent with each post that you have no idea what you're talking about. First you claim to understand the distinction between clinical and situational depression. Then in the bold you're saying that a clinically depressed person has the ability to assess their "problems" and put them into perspective.

I truly hope the depressed people in your life aren't relying on you for anything.

The ****? I clearly stated its their inability to do just that, that frustrates me. I'm fully aware they can't.

As I stated they aren't I refer them to those that can I sit and listen when they want to talk, I don't say anything about it. if they are feeling up to it I try and get them out and about, I don't focus on it or draw attention to depression around them at all.

That's all I can do.

 

[Gough]

The ****? I clearly stated its their inability to do just that, that frustrates me.

As I stated they aren't I refer them to those that can I sit and listen when they want to talk, I don't say anything about it. if they are feeling up to it I try and get them out and about, I don't focus to draw attention to depression around them at all.

That's all I can do.

You can do so much more than that. Sometimes people just need a sounding board, they need to try to verbalise how they are feeling to someone close to them. Just saying "Ring Beyond Blue" isn't helping them, I hope one of your mates never has to turn to you if they are in need of a really good friend.

 

[nicky]

The ****? I clearly stated its their inability to do just that, that frustrates me. I'm fully aware they can't.

As I stated they aren't I refer them to those that can I sit and listen when they want to talk, I don't say anything about it. if they are feeling up to it I try and get them out and about, I don't focus on it or draw attention to depression around them at all.

That's all I can do.

Yeah i meant to type "inability" to assess their problems.

The point is that clinical depression isn't always triggered and maintained by an external set of problems. That is the difference between clinical and situational depression. In your posts you've displayed that you don't understand mental illness because you don't get this basic point.

All the rest of your hoo hah about the mentally ill needing to get a perspective based on Somalia being worse off etc sounds like it's written by a 16 year old valley girl. So i've taken it with a grain of salt.

Back on topic. I had an interesting conversation with a guy a few weeks ago about the tendency for people with a mental illness to be inward focussed. He agreed and supported it by claiming that mental illness diagnosis decreases when there's a major war on or catastrophe like September 11 because people are forced to focus on something external.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

You can do so much more than thats Sometimes people just need a sounding board, they need to try to verbalise how they are feeling to someone close to them. Just saying "Ring Beyond Blue" isn't helping them, I hope one of your mates never had to turn to you if they were in need of a really good friend.

I told you I listen when they want to talk. I don't say anything, because I don't have any answers I'm not going to bs them (for one they would know it) and say I understand what they are going through because I don't.

And I'm not going to chastise them.

Beyond blue has councillors and shit (not that anything seems to help) there's support groups I answer the phone no matter the hour.

What more can I do?

And no that's not the drop kick that got depressed from quitting sport as I said he was bloke that came around and talked to the crew when we left Aegis.

It's a company wide policy for when people in our role, exit the company.

 

[skilts]

I told you I listen when they want to talk. I don't say anything, because I don't have any answers I'm not going to bs them (for one they would know it) and say I understand what they are going through because I don't.

And I'm not going to chastise them.

Beyond blue has councillors and shit (not that anything seems to help) there's support groups I answer the phone no matter the hour.

What more can I do?

And no that's not the drop kick that got depressed from quitting sport as I said he was bloke that came around and talked to the crew when we left Aegis.

It's a company wide policy for when people in our role, exit the company.

For somebody to talk about their depression is not necessarily beneficial for them, as a matter of course, despite what they may feel in the middle of their conversation. It is almost never beneficial for the person who has to listen, unless they have a martyr complex.

 

[timtamWB]

I used to be suicidal, even went to the point of trying to overdose on meds but failed and was forced to spend some time in a hospital. The only problem with people who are seriously considering suicide as a viable option, is that usually a lot of them aren't open to getting help, or that a lot of the time they won't listen to other people because they are too stubborn and their mind is perennially closed off due to the dark thoughts. This is the general consensus i've gained from my own experiences and from talking to others with a similar illness. Generally there is the same sort of thread that causes someone to consider suicide which is as follows:

• Some form of bullying, whether at high school or primary school, or even in the workplace.
• A feeling of being inadequate or "not good enough" for some people.
• Constant rejection from all facets of life.
• Don't like approaching people with problems.
• Tend to be either extremely quiet, or the life of the party that is used as a mask.
• Usually some situation that may be seen as fairly normal or insignificant acts as a trigger

It's this last point that I think is the main reason why a lot of people can't pick up on a suicidal person until it's too late, or almost too late. They see something that may have been bad but it's not the end of the world, whereas the suicidal person has had all the bad thoughts and feelings bottled up and that "trigger" acts as a release. For me it was a breakup, and just a normal breakup no bad blood or anything. It was just that feeling of rejection and inadequacy, couple with the bullying and bad things from my past that brought it up.

I look back now and think I should have mentioned something earlier, but realistically there is no way I would have. A lot of people I know are the same, they know they should have spoken up but know they would never have done so. It's ingrained into the public that suicide and depression mean something is "wrong" with this person and that they're "different", and so the person feels even more excluded from society.

I feel that suicide is always going to be a problem, just like bullying. But hopefully it can slowly be phased out to become very rare cases, rather than the all too common cases we see now.

 

[_Christoh_]

You completely misunderstood what I said, I was asked My opinion of suicide, I gave it. My reasons for this would take pages to fully explained its based on my entire life's experience.

Now I don't go out telling all and sundry that depression is just a character flaw or that suicide's are just just mentally weak, because as I said in the beginning that's pretty slack. And I know it upsets people, but this is an open forum I was asked what "I" thought of suicides I gave it.

I'm far from claiming any great insight or to be an authority on the matter and I'm not advocating that others should view suicide the way I do.

I would very much like to understand depressed people I really would but I can't, I don't have it in me believe I've tried.

It simply doesn't make any sense to me, it's not about what wealth they have or possessions I'm talking in the vast majority of cases they don't have a hard life they have people they can turn to for support understanding very little real reasons for stress and yet I'm supposed to feel sympathy for their plight?

It's my failing I understand that but I the more I've gotten to know the few cases of supposed clinically depressed people that I have in my years the less sympathy I've had for them.

In one case I was utterly disgusted by the person. Thankfully he pulled through it, but to here was this this person talking to us about the risks of becoming depressed. and readjusting to normal life and then he went on at length about how he became depressed for years simply because he gave up professional sport?

I'm sorry but I don't get it, you say it's an inability to cope, not weakness. I don't make a distinction their the same thing to me.

You've gone on at length about how they view themselves and how hard they find life, but the majority of that is in there head it's not real.

I understand I compound the problem (I believe I even said that) by having the point of view that I do, and thankfully society as a whole isn't as callous as I am. But someone ask's me for my opinion on it and I'll give it. Right or wrong.

I think you're closer to understanding it than you think. The language you use though is what is getting you confused and coming across as harsh. You say that you think you lack the sympathy to understand but I think the word your looking for is empathy. You might think they're the same but they're not.

You say inability to cope is the same as weakness. No way, skewed perceptions and unrational thoughts can lead people down thought processes that can be horrific for periods of time that consume them and alter their reality. That's tough. That sort of shit grinds people down. Everyone has different coping resources and some peoples are better than others.

I like that you say you dont get it but are trying to wrap your head around it, that's cool but you need to acknowledge first that it does exist, it does lead people to end their lives and it doesn't always make sense. Its not something you can look at with logic and reason cos there is none most of the time.

 

[Tex_21]

Sydney bloods there's a difference between situational depression ("claiming depression over "pathetic" little things" as you put it) and clinical depression.

This is a very important distinction, and one that is strangely often missed. There appears to be some elements of mis-diagnosis of situational depression as clinical depression (largely by GPs, handing out drugs quite freely), and some missing of clinical depression (related to people often not seeking help). This can lead to the kind of reactions to mental illness displayed in this thread (Sydney Bloods is an example above), which is a shame, and doesn't help to de-stigmatise mental illness.

Whilst situational and clinical depression are separate, one can lead to the other (clinical depression can just as easily come from nothing), and it is worth paying attention to. I've seen a fair bit of it myself, with 3 mates doing themselves in, and several more having bouts of depression lasting a number of years. It's not fun, it has no real rhyme or reason to it, and the remedy varies from person to person.

 

[skilts]

I truly hope the depressed people in your life aren't relying on you for anything because you don't understand mental illness at all.

Is there any possibility at all, that the reason mental illness is so difficult for non-sufferers to understand is that those who do suffer have no means by which to explain their illness? It seems to me that those who suffer from depression find themselves unable to overcome what is a constant mental state. Those not so afflicted have difficulty in putting themselves in the others shoes. The fault in this, if their be any due, might well be sheeted home to both parties in the communication process.

Also, where has anybody proved that it is always, under all circumstances, under all conditions, better to talk about it? Not just for those who have been convinced it is better to talk about it, by people whose income derives from listening to them, but by those who find themselves in a position where they are, without warning or consent, expected to listen without such payment.

If this so-called talking therapy had any efficacy at all, surely those who obtain payment for it would be able to point to incontrovertible evidence of this. There is none. The best that can be said is that it causes no more harm than doing nothing. To expect unqualified Joe Bloggs to know how to react to something, of which he barely has any understanding, is unrealistic, especially, as seems to be the case, if the ill have difficulty explaining their situation in terms that are readily understood by those not so afflicted.

Blaming anybody in this situation seems counter-productive. An option might be to stop promoting constant talk as a panacea, when obviously, it's not. All would benefit from this.

 

[nicky]

What are you on about? I've never promoted 'talking about it' as a cure for depression - i don't even know if i'm for or against "talking about it". Have no idea why you quoted me for that rant.

Frankly the most gifted people i know for snapping people out of depression or a depressed mood (even if for a short while), do it by diverting attention away towards something silly or funny. So if anything, i'm probably not an advocate of "talking about depression" as a cure.

 

[HARKER]

Do you have a suicide plan? I guess I always think that if things go awry, I have a way out. And it's a comforting thought. I even discussed it with my psychologist and she is aware of my thoughts and she thinks it's fine that I have them.

Not a suicide plan but I do have a contingency plan.

Will make for a good day when we're allowed to say when we've had enough. You know, just being honest.