Autopsy Suns loss & Vent Thread

[The Old Dark Navy's]

That is a fantastic story, i hope thats true

It's not, but it has become true over the years.

 

[Blue Flame]

A year ahead of Simpson. Waite was taken in the national draft at the end of 2001, Thornton the rookie draft so technically Waite has the greater longevity. Thornton debuted ahead of both however.

Uh... True actually. Not just a pretty avatar.

Sorry by senior players I meant the regular brigade that we put on the park. The guys that seem to get games no matter how bad they play like Gibbs and Garlett. Sometimes when you type massive posts like that you tend to say things the way you don't exactly mean them.

OK, yeah I see what you mean. I sometimes find it hard to judge these things though because we hold them to different expectations. When Gibbs picks up 15 odd touches having been forced to play out of position as a KPD, we are all over him for mistakes a senior player shouldn't make. When a debutant comes in we praise them for having a crack and getting 8 or so touches and looking like they belong.
Sometimes I think certain players become the victims of very high expectations- this may be rightly or wrongly, I'm not sure.

 

[Moody Blue]

wtf does John Barker do down there? Any chance someone could teach the forwards to kick for goal? Weak as piss effort, Ratts is gone.[/quote
Meanwhile down in the bush Fev kicked his 100th goal; Collingwood has paid for a personal trainer for him to get back to his ideal weight and next year he will kick 10 when he lines up against our backline.
It is time for the Board to get of their collective bums and make a call this week and inform the coach his services will not be required next season. I would rest Murphy and Judd and get Eddie Betts and Garlett into into the middle and make them run until they throw up so they can see how hard it is too get the ball into the forward line. Garlett plays when it suits him or when it doesn't get too hard. Without doubt the most disgraceful performance an Carlton team has served up in 10 years. 13 Gold coast players were sitting in the stands and we had just about our best team out there. Cudo's to Mclean for saving his career.

 

[Big Red is back]

Look for Ratten to be sacked there must be a very good reason behind it.

While personally, I would like him to stop coming out and saying stuff like "we're going to make top 4", "Bryce Gibbs is going to have a break out year" and "if we make finals we'll be dangerous". It's only natural that when the coach starts looking too far ahead, then his players will. Now, this is not a good enough reason alone to sack him.

What I think will get him in trouble is the fact that he never takes a hard edge on the senior or leadership players. Last night was the first time I saw him have a go at Gibbs for a soft effort, it's been happening all year. Now, maybe he does have a go at him behind the scenes, but if he has then it hasn't been working. He seems to have his favourites on the list and this hurts the team. For example Thornton missing out so many times when he could've been useful. Look at how inexperienced our backline was last night, An experienced player like Thornton would've done better than White. Guys like McLean and Ellard are always the first to get dropped over the last couple years, but guys like Gibbs, Garlett etc won't get dropped no matter how bad they play and it wasn't just a week or two this year, they had many weeks in a row this year where they were bad. I feel that this gives the wrong message to the playing group, once they start feeling like they're safe no matter, they start to play complacent footy.

You'll find that the players in the top teams perform consistently because the pressure is on them to perform, they know if they aren't up to standard they'll lose their spot. Dropping Gibbs and Garlett earlier on would've sent a firm message to the whole group that lack of effort is unacceptable.

But reading through this thread, all the talk is about Ratten's future and very little is on the future of certain players. While Gibbs still has value he should be shopped around, this will do 2 things:

1) Earn us an early DP or a quality player. GWS would probably like to have a guy like Gibbs in their line up so they could offer something reasonable for him.
2) If no trade gets done, Gibbs will still be on notice. He'll know that the coaching staff aren't happy with him dishing up shit efforts and that could light a fire under his arse.

Both will benefit the team. Personally if we can get a decent DP for him, I'd take it and run. Let's pick up a couple of hard edged mids in this year's draft that have a good footy brain and are prepared to put in the hard yards every time and aren't going to shirk contact like as if we're playing netball. This way we won't have to play guys like Curnow and Ellard anymore who are both clearly not up to it. They work hard, no denying that, but we want to be a premiership team and they have no place for these type of players that continuously make poor decisions.

Lucas is another one I'd be shopping around. Sorry, but if you couldn't break into our team this year with all the injuries we had then something isn't right. Probably be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for him.

We will definitely need to find a decent small defender, cannot persist with the likes of Joseph and Touhy. Touhy's best chance is probably a spot in the forward line, but I have my doubts he'll succeed there. He has a brilliant kick on him, but that's not enough, you need to understand how to play the game, where to run, where/when to kick and handball. He needs a couple of seasons in the 2's to develop this part of his game because playing him in the seniors has hurt his confidence.

I would take a look at the lists of the top teams and see if there are any small defender type of players there that are starved of opportunity and see if we can get them for a cheap price like we did with Laidler.

We need to offload one of our ruckman as well imo. With the rule changes we cannot possibly hope to play all 3 of them at once. In fact the new trend is to have just one ruckman and a forward who can pinch hit. We've been going ok with Kruze and Casboult. So if Kreuzer goes down we'll have Hammer to replace him. If both go down then bad luck. No use keeping a 3rd ruckman in case 2 go down when there are other areas of our list that need depth. Draft a ruckman with a rookie pick if that's a huge concern. I would try and trade Warnock to GWS see what we can get for him, I'd be very happy with a 2nd rounder. This is because I think when Hammer goes forward at least he can be mobile enough to get to contests and kick a couple here and there whereas Warnock has shown he can't do that.

Let's make Goddard an offer he can't refuse. Won't cost as much as Cloke and would be a very valuable asset to the team. I think at the Saints he's lost motivation with them whether he wants to admit it or not because it's quite obvious he won't win a flag with them. We won't have to give up any picks either.

So if all this eventuated, this is what we'd lose and possibly get:

Lose
Gibbs >> 1st rounder (would not accept anything less because the guy is very talented, just not working for us)
Lucas >> 2nd rounder (although I think we'd be lucky to get that)
Warnock >> 2nd rounder (again might have to get lucky for that too, but he is a decent ruckman so not a ridiculous trade)
3rd rounder >> small defender (not sure who though but I'd start by looking at Geelong and Sydney's list. Both clubs have strong culture)
$$$$$$ >> Goddard

We use that 1st rounder from the Gibbs trade along with our 1st rounder to get the 2 best hard at it mids available. Then, with our 2nd rounders we get a key forward and another mid. We need to remember that we have a lot of mids who are getting old now and so we need to have some new ones to come in and replace them. Scotland, Judd, Carrazzo, Simpson all will need to be replaced soon. Now I only accounted for 2 2nd rounders, one of which our own and considering I said we'd be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for either Warnock or Lucas, I just accounted for 1. If we can get lucky enough to end up with 3 2nd rounders even better.

Now our midfield stocks will be bolstered with skillful players that will put their head over it and are talented enough to make smart decisions, We'll hopefully get a good find with the small defender, if can't find one for trade then obviously will need to draft one and we add Goddard to the team.

Worst loss in the god dam clubs history

This loss was worse than melbournes loss to Geelong last year and is much worse than port losing to gws

Throw in a ten goal loss to port Adelaide which is probably the second worst loss in my life time

I couldn't see a more compelling case for dismissal

 

[RiCHii]

Look for Ratten to be sacked there must be a very good reason behind it.

While personally, I would like him to stop coming out and saying stuff like "we're going to make top 4", "Bryce Gibbs is going to have a break out year" and "if we make finals we'll be dangerous". It's only natural that when the coach starts looking too far ahead, then his players will. Now, this is not a good enough reason alone to sack him.

What I think will get him in trouble is the fact that he never takes a hard edge on the senior or leadership players. Last night was the first time I saw him have a go at Gibbs for a soft effort, it's been happening all year. Now, maybe he does have a go at him behind the scenes, but if he has then it hasn't been working. He seems to have his favourites on the list and this hurts the team. For example Thornton missing out so many times when he could've been useful. Look at how inexperienced our backline was last night, An experienced player like Thornton would've done better than White. Guys like McLean and Ellard are always the first to get dropped over the last couple years, but guys like Gibbs, Garlett etc won't get dropped no matter how bad they play and it wasn't just a week or two this year, they had many weeks in a row this year where they were bad. I feel that this gives the wrong message to the playing group, once they start feeling like they're safe no matter, they start to play complacent footy.

You'll find that the players in the top teams perform consistently because the pressure is on them to perform, they know if they aren't up to standard they'll lose their spot. Dropping Gibbs and Garlett earlier on would've sent a firm message to the whole group that lack of effort is unacceptable.

But reading through this thread, all the talk is about Ratten's future and very little is on the future of certain players. While Gibbs still has value he should be shopped around, this will do 2 things:

1) Earn us an early DP or a quality player. GWS would probably like to have a guy like Gibbs in their line up so they could offer something reasonable for him.
2) If no trade gets done, Gibbs will still be on notice. He'll know that the coaching staff aren't happy with him dishing up shit efforts and that could light a fire under his arse.

Both will benefit the team. Personally if we can get a decent DP for him, I'd take it and run. Let's pick up a couple of hard edged mids in this year's draft that have a good footy brain and are prepared to put in the hard yards every time and aren't going to shirk contact like as if we're playing netball. This way we won't have to play guys like Curnow and Ellard anymore who are both clearly not up to it. They work hard, no denying that, but we want to be a premiership team and they have no place for these type of players that continuously make poor decisions.

Lucas is another one I'd be shopping around. Sorry, but if you couldn't break into our team this year with all the injuries we had then something isn't right. Probably be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for him.

We will definitely need to find a decent small defender, cannot persist with the likes of Joseph and Touhy. Touhy's best chance is probably a spot in the forward line, but I have my doubts he'll succeed there. He has a brilliant kick on him, but that's not enough, you need to understand how to play the game, where to run, where/when to kick and handball. He needs a couple of seasons in the 2's to develop this part of his game because playing him in the seniors has hurt his confidence.

I would take a look at the lists of the top teams and see if there are any small defender type of players there that are starved of opportunity and see if we can get them for a cheap price like we did with Laidler.

We need to offload one of our ruckman as well imo. With the rule changes we cannot possibly hope to play all 3 of them at once. In fact the new trend is to have just one ruckman and a forward who can pinch hit. We've been going ok with Kruze and Casboult. So if Kreuzer goes down we'll have Hammer to replace him. If both go down then bad luck. No use keeping a 3rd ruckman in case 2 go down when there are other areas of our list that need depth. Draft a ruckman with a rookie pick if that's a huge concern. I would try and trade Warnock to GWS see what we can get for him, I'd be very happy with a 2nd rounder. This is because I think when Hammer goes forward at least he can be mobile enough to get to contests and kick a couple here and there whereas Warnock has shown he can't do that.

Let's make Goddard an offer he can't refuse. Won't cost as much as Cloke and would be a very valuable asset to the team. I think at the Saints he's lost motivation with them whether he wants to admit it or not because it's quite obvious he won't win a flag with them. We won't have to give up any picks either.

So if all this eventuated, this is what we'd lose and possibly get:

Lose
Gibbs >> 1st rounder (would not accept anything less because the guy is very talented, just not working for us)
Lucas >> 2nd rounder (although I think we'd be lucky to get that)
Warnock >> 2nd rounder (again might have to get lucky for that too, but he is a decent ruckman so not a ridiculous trade)
3rd rounder >> small defender (not sure who though but I'd start by looking at Geelong and Sydney's list. Both clubs have strong culture)
$$$$$$ >> Goddard

We use that 1st rounder from the Gibbs trade along with our 1st rounder to get the 2 best hard at it mids available. Then, with our 2nd rounders we get a key forward and another mid. We need to remember that we have a lot of mids who are getting old now and so we need to have some new ones to come in and replace them. Scotland, Judd, Carrazzo, Simpson all will need to be replaced soon. Now I only accounted for 2 2nd rounders, one of which our own and considering I said we'd be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for either Warnock or Lucas, I just accounted for 1. If we can get lucky enough to end up with 3 2nd rounders even better.

Now our midfield stocks will be bolstered with skillful players that will put their head over it and are talented enough to make smart decisions, We'll hopefully get a good find with the small defender, if can't find one for trade then obviously will need to draft one and we add Goddard to the team.

Absolutely agree with every single word you have written in your post. I have been one who has been calling for Gibbs to get dropped, I almost feel that if we had a coach like Malthouse he would have the balls to drop Gibbs. I think Gibbs is a huge talent and has the potential to be very very good but until he learns how to hunt and find his own football he will always be one of those players that we think to ourselves wow he could have been something special. If Gibbs doesn't get dropped then he will continue to prance around picking up his cheap possesions, and I understand he is a great kick and usually his disposal is top notch but that doesn't cut it, I want him to go and get the footy himself, if he is able to d o that it takes him from an average footballer to a elite footballer.
Lucas MUST be shopped around he has been at the football club for 2 years now and injuries and crap aside he just doesn't seem to cut the mustard. He too is pretty soft, and I have heard whispers that other clubs may be interested in him, if this is true do the trade get a good draft pick and move on because eventually we'll end up with a player with no value and we will have no other choice but to delist.
Don't mind if they end up trading Warnock because frankly he just doesn't get on the park enough to impress, he played a few good games back in 2011 but that was about it, he is on a pretty good contract which I believe he doesn't deserve. Collingwood are in desperate need of a ruckman, we should try to get a deal done with collingwood but in saying that we must keep in mind that they are tight arses when it comes to trading and will probably offer us something pretty ridiculous.
Carlton really need to start making some tough decisions because if we don't we will be stuck in this rutt and never be a success, I feel that our "premiership window" is still well and truely open but a stronge message needs to be sent to the playing group that mediocrity is not aword that is associated wit hthe carlton football club, and if you want to just stroll around and not be a professional then you will not be needed. I hope Ratts can make those hard decisions, because I would rather see the club stick with him and show a bit of faith than to just get rid of him. Just remember it took Malthouse 10 years to gain success at Collingwood.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Mentally piss-weak side.

Levi Casboult: I know he is just a kid and everybody here has been raving on about him, but in all seriousness, whenever he takes a mark in the forward line ... I find it very hard to get excited about it, because I know he will butcher the kick. FIX THIS.

Curnow: No awareness, looks awkward whenever he goes near the pill and for some reason he always F%#@#& lobs the ball up too long and gives it too much airtime with passes and kicks. FIX THIS.

Ellard: Looked out of his depth.

Coaching Staff: Lack of flexibility with the line up - exposed once McInnes went down.

Tom Bell: Again, I know he's just a kid, but stop reading your own press - give the ball off the first time and stop trying to bullock your way through tackles at every chance and getting caught with it.

/rant.

 

[The_Wookie]

Brock'n'roll


Chris Judd - power, strength and skill


AFL match highlights


Ratten and Gibbs at 3/4 time - requested


Rattens press conference

 

[bballscout]

I was at the game and must say Carlton were terrible. A great team on paper and actually still played better than us. One of those rare games were the worse team some how wins the game.

Difference in the end was we kicked straight, Blues did not...

 

[The_Wookie]

Gameday review


Sunday Footy Show review with Campbell Brown

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Just a quick one. Carlton are 2-5 at Carrara, including that woeful home game we sold to them when we were in 4th and lost to 14th place Freo. That was the worst I had seen us play until now and Fev had one of his infamous, no leading, no chasing games.

Similar game to that of Murphy's.....

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Mentally piss-weak side.

Levi Casboult: I know he is just a kid and everybody here has been raving on about him, but in all seriousness, whenever he takes a mark in the forward line ... I find it very hard to excited about it, because I know he will butcher the kick. FIX THIS.

Curnow: No awareness, looks awkward whenever he goes near the pill and for some reason he always F%#@#& lobs the ball up too long and gives it too much airtime with passes and kicks. FIX THIS.

Ellard: Looked out of his depth.

Coaching Staff: Lack of flexibility with the line up - exposed once McInnes went down.

Tom Bell: Again, I know he's just a kid, but stop reading your own press - give the ball off the first time and stop trying to bullock your way through tackles at every chance and getting caught with it.

/rant.

I agree with the assessment on Casboult, Brock McLean had the right idea against Richmond...just kick it over his head, nek minnit....goal!

Carlton should absolutely get Fev next year, employ him as our goal kicking coach!!!

 

[Shatterpoint]

Yep have to agree.with trading Gibbs, but this is Rattens fault as well Gibbs, Garlett etc had to be dropped a long time ago but our coach has his favs, they might like him but only because he lets them get away with playing like shit. They dont respect him and thats the important thing, too many times over the years we have done this it speaks volumes about the team and the coach.

I loved Ratten as a player one of the hardest and most courageous players to have pulled on the Navy Blue, he coached our club in our darkest times and got us to be a middle of the road team and we should thank him for that. But he is too buddy buddy with the players and the players know this and hence the shit they put up, they know there will be no punishment and for years have taken advantage of it.

We should put Gibbs + Yarran on the table along with Hampson + Warnock and try to get some good trades happening, hard decisions have to be made and the time was after Port bent us over. Sorry but my patience with Gibbs and his soft mental and physical attitude is up, we cannot afford too many soft passengers, Yarran is in the same boat as Gibbs both are soft down hill skiers.

We are such a mentally weak team its shocking, cant even string four wins in a row togwther, says a lot about our playing group and coaching staff, we are the new Richmond and Bulldogs.

 

[Bluesince62]

Gibbs is family friend of Kernahan, therefore is untouchable. Became a member of the boys club upon signing. Will not be even considered for the draft whilst his mate is President

 

[thylacine60]

It's not, but it has become true over the years.

Like the Blues improving every year!

 

[pepalenko]

Are troll posts continually being deleted here mods? I keeping coming back to read unread posts from my mobile and zilch.

 

[thylacine60]

Considered an upgrade, PepMan?

 

[Aphrodite]

Are troll posts continually being deleted here mods? I keeping coming back to read unread posts from my mobile and zilch.

None for a while pep.

Check your phone settings.

 

[The Toad]

Look for Ratten to be sacked there must be a very good reason behind it.

While personally, I would like him to stop coming out and saying stuff like "we're going to make top 4", "Bryce Gibbs is going to have a break out year" and "if we make finals we'll be dangerous". It's only natural that when the coach starts looking too far ahead, then his players will. Now, this is not a good enough reason alone to sack him.

What I think will get him in trouble is the fact that he never takes a hard edge on the senior or leadership players. Last night was the first time I saw him have a go at Gibbs for a soft effort, it's been happening all year. Now, maybe he does have a go at him behind the scenes, but if he has then it hasn't been working. He seems to have his favourites on the list and this hurts the team. For example Thornton missing out so many times when he could've been useful. Look at how inexperienced our backline was last night, An experienced player like Thornton would've done better than White. Guys like McLean and Ellard are always the first to get dropped over the last couple years, but guys like Gibbs, Garlett etc won't get dropped no matter how bad they play and it wasn't just a week or two this year, they had many weeks in a row this year where they were bad. I feel that this gives the wrong message to the playing group, once they start feeling like they're safe no matter, they start to play complacent footy.

No fricken way we should trade Gibbs. Play him in the mid field and he will be a gun.

.

 

[Big Sim]

We should put Gibbs + Yarran on the table.

FFS. The two most skillful players at the club, the latter also the fastest. You must have broken your jaw with the force of that knee jerk.

 

[pepalenko]

Don't know what happened, working now. Cheers.

 

[Aphrodite]

Don't know what happened, working now. Cheers.

Gremlins.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Very hard to tell from that Ratts v Gibbs 3 qtr time bake. Ratts starts, Gibbs gesticulates a little, Ratts comes back at him, Gibbs accepts it and moves on. Ratts might have been saying 'what were you doing there?' and Gibbs was explaining what he was doing and using his hands to explain. We don't see Gibbs face during that first exchange.

Poor form if he was returning fire, especially given his lack of application on the night, but I'm not going to assume unless the club themselves verify it.

 

[Wickzki]

You'll find that the players in the top teams perform consistently because the pressure is on them to perform, they know if they aren't up to standard they'll lose their spot. Dropping Gibbs and Garlett earlier on would've sent a firm message to the whole group that lack of effort is unacceptable.

The last time I remember them doing something like this was back in 2009 when we publicly dropped Heath Scotland and Nick Stevens. Stevens was gone at the end of the year due to an injury but it was possibly the best thing that ever happened in Heath's career.

 

[Big Red is back]

Very hard to tell from that Ratts v Gibbs 3 qtr time bake. Ratts starts, Gibbs gesticulates a little, Ratts comes back at him, Gibbs accepts it and moves on. Ratts might have been saying 'what were you doing there?' and Gibbs was explaining what he was doing and using his hands to explain. We don't see Gibbs face during that first exchange.

Poor form if he was returning fire, especially given his lack of application on the night, but I'm not going to assume unless the club themselves verify it.

Looked a complete none issue just watched the video and it is nothing different to what I would see every weekend in some way shape or form

 

[redkettle]

After having calmed down a bit on Sunday I thought this.....the saints who had no chance of finals go out against the worse team in the comp and pummel them...we who had a pretty good chance of playing finals (before the dockers result) play the second worse team and get beaten....work that out...not kicking straight is no excuse.....letting the second worse team get anywhere near 15 goals is inexcusable.....Malthouse is not the answer......passion and consistency is.......