Autopsy Suns loss & Vent Thread

[zeeCFC]

Wouldn't give Yarran up for the world. Love him almost as much as Juddman.

 

[Stamos]

I'm not going to read through the 20 pages, but as bad as this loss was, it doesn't touch the St Kilda one for me.

Our season has been over so many times already, and it was over again when McInnes did his knee.

 

[JustaBattler]

Dangerfield for Gibbs
and
Yarran for Shuey Kennedy or Nic Nat - thanks
they can sprinkle some first round draft picks along the way as well

After all players ALWAYS want to return to their home state, im pretty sure they spend their entire lives trying to get back there, they;d push these trades through on those grounds alone :/

Dangerfield is exactly what Carlton needs - I'd toss Warnock and Gibbs in to do that trade - have you heard Dangerfield speak? That bloke is a born leader who loves the hard stuff. No comparison between Gibbs and Dngerfield - different class of player at thi sstage and hard to see Gibbsy getting there - ever. Dangerfield has all of Gibbs strengths and is also outstanding inside.

Yarran - the ONLY players I'd have any interest in from WC would be Kennedy - thanks we will have him back now or Nic Nat - Yarran is going to be a match winner for us - WC have those two as direct comparable s.

 

[gbatman]

Gibbs has been a very disappointing player. For someone with a great build, good footy brain, good skills and is a good athlete he should be so much better. He should be doing what Pendlebury is doing and playing midfield, getting 30 touches per game and influencing his team's results but instead he is nothing more than a good half back flanker doing the easy stuff and getting 20 cheapies a game. He just isn't the core player he was made out to be and should be. He plays the easy roles like lose man in defence or picks up the weakest forward and sometimes does an adequate job as a tagger. He's been given chance after chance to play in the midfield and take up a position on the ball and has succeeded about 10% of the time. His attitude is poor. His onfield work rate, intensity and ability to get himself into a contest is pathetic. He only really plays well when the team is up and about and the players around him are firing. When it's in the balance and we need someone to stand up it's never him. I'd just love to see him will himself into a contest when we are down for once like Judd and Mclean did against the suns at one stage. I just don't see much in the way of leadership or example in the way he goes about playing. His attitude wreaks of FIGJAM and it's more than unwarranted. It was openly stated that he would step up and become a good player preseason. Just as we announced our top 4 ambitions. To me he is the epotomy of what is wrong with the Carlton Football Team. Some of our players really go to war when they go out to play and do so every week and some go out for a kick and turn it on every now and then.

I'm not sure why he hasn't progressed as a player. Perhaps he has gone as far as he will. Perhaps not. I remember in his development years, it was outstanding that he needed to be dropped back in the VFL but he was just undroppable. At the time the club was in a bad way and too gutless to do the right thing and drop the number 1 pick. The club accepted his performances. He was not held accountable for not putting in and made to earn it.
Now look at our better players. Judd and Murphy are the exceptions. Then there are Mclean, Scotland, Laidler, Jamison, Betts, Walker, Carrazzo, Henderson, Simpson and Robinson. They are all our better players, they have been better than Gibbs even though they are far less gifted. Then you look at where they have come from and how they have had to work for it and play good game after good game at VFL level and were dropped when they failed and had to re-earn their place back in the side. Gibbs has never played a game of VFL but he sure as hell should have. His selection is and always has been a sure thing and he knows it and plays like it. The club has done a good job developing him in all areas, except in between the ears.

Next year I'd be inclined to play Gibbs on the ball and drop him when he fails instead of moving him to half back to get him into the game. This is the tough stance the club must take to change his attitude and make a player of him.

On another note. Players like Lucas who are having to battle in the VFL will be better for it although not rewarding good VFL form wont do him much good and likely see him go. Garlett needed a holiday ages ago too and we were too gutless to do it.

Talent alone won't win you a premiership and wont make a player a good player. Talent has taken Gibbs as far as it can, it's up to him to do the rest. That is if he wants to be one of the better players in the league and not just one of the better players at Carlton.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

You'd need to get offers to good to refuse to trade the silky players on our list. You can't build a team around just Robbo types. We would not get what we paid for them and not get what they potentially mean to our team, so a trade is extremely unlikely, unless they request it themselves.

That's not what is being said. Is Judd a Robbo type? No, but he wins the ball when he needs to, he wears the tackles and bumps, Murphy does too.

Paul Roos AA mids 2012 (off what I can remember)

Dangerfield
Kennedy
Mitchell
Cotchin
Joel Selwood
Ablett

Can't remember the others (Sewell rings a bell too) but they are all types that will win the ball when required, he had about 5 different players from Mike Sheahan. All are players that don't shirk contact like Gibbs does.

He doesn't need to be a maniac like Robinson, he needs to take the hits when required and he needs to win the ball more instead of waiting for opposition players to pick it up first to lay a cheap tackle where they get their hands free and hand ball off most of the time.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

What I am saying is that you use what he has and add some rougher edges. We simply can't afford to lose that class unless it is a lost cause, because we will not get anywhere near value for him.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

What I am saying is that you use what he has and add some rougher edges. We simply can't afford to lose that class unless it is a lost cause, because we will not get anywhere near value for him.

Ok, so you don't think/want Gibbs to improve that part of his game because "he's not that type of player" ?

What's the point of having all that talent if it never comes to the party when the going gets tough? You'll notice that Gibbs only ever plays really well when everyone else is up and about, when the team is down and need him to show some leadership, he goes missing. This year was a perfect example of it, no Murphy, no Carrazzo, might as well have been no Gibbs.

We won't trade him anyway unless he does something drastic. All I'm saying is I think we should shop him around a bit. IF GWS offer us an early 1st rounder, then I would take it even though in reality the club still probably wouldn't. But shop him around even if you don't intend on actually trading him, it'll make him realise that there's no more coasting through.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

What I am saying is that you use what he has and add some rougher edges.

Ok, so you don't think/want Gibbs to improve that part of his game because "he's not that type of player" ?

You know, some people are just on entirely different wavelengths to each other and should maybe accept it and cease conversation. That may just apply to us.

 

[Silvagnis]

Funny what a difference a week makes in football. Pathetic really.

Gibbs has been out of the midfield for too long due to Carlton lacking options. Just look at the transition Walker has made after after previously playing as a defender and run with mid on stars. Gibbs showed in two of the last three games that he can play midfield and win his own ball. Injuries permitting, a new coach would be likely to put Gibbs up the ground and get the best out of Bryce as a midfield/forward. He will eventually move up the ground permanently like Deledio who has made that transition.

 

[BM123]

Didn't see Tanks alot ripping into Gibbs after the Essendon game but alas.....

 

[Blue Flame]

Ok, so you don't think/want Gibbs to improve that part of his game because "he's not that type of player" ?

What's the point of having all that talent if it never comes to the party when the going gets tough? You'll notice that Gibbs only ever plays really well when everyone else is up and about, when the team is down and need him to show some leadership, he goes missing. This year was a perfect example of it, no Murphy, no Carrazzo, might as well have been no Gibbs.

We won't trade him anyway unless he does something drastic. All I'm saying is I think we should shop him around a bit. IF GWS offer us an early 1st rounder, then I would take it even though in reality the club still probably wouldn't. But shop him around even if you don't intend on actually trading him, it'll make him realise that there's no more coasting through.

Tanks, that's not quite what was said.
ODN was saying we need his class badly, but we also need him to develop a bit of hardness, I would love to see him have a bit of a nasty streak.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

Didn't see Tanks alot ripping into Gibbs after the Essendon game but alas.....

So you're happy with 2 really decent games out of 22 for Mr.Gibbs? Don't worry he got on a role in the Essendon game because pretty much the whole team did. You won't see him play a blinder when the team's down and needs a lift.

Soft effort against Ablett cost us a vital goal, showed very little for 90% of the games he played this season, but people still want to accept his mediocre performances. If you think he didn't deserve to be dropped early on in the year and if you don't think he needs to improve big time in the ticker department then you're blind.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

Tanks, that's not quite what was said.
ODN was saying we need his class badly, but we also need him to develop a bit of hardness, I would love to see him have a bit of a nasty streak.

But where is this hardness going to all of a sudden come from? It isn't going to come from pre season training, problem between the ears needs to be fixed by forcing him to realise what is and isn't acceptable. It's not from lifting more weights so that he feels like he-man, he's already built enough.

Shopping him around could be just the wake up call that he needs. We can't drop him anymore, the season's over, shop him around and he'll hit pre season training with determination, I'll bet it'll force him to be bursting to get out there next year and prove himself. Of course, the flip side to it is, that he'll get pissed off at being shopped around and request a trade, but the good news is it'll be in our favour anyway because we don't have to trade him unless we get something good because he's contracted. Win/win imo.

 

[Garth Vader]

With a couple of our players being singled out for their (consistent) lack of effort at key times, makes me think of Fev in the early years, and how he was nearly done away with - until Pagan got there. Suddenly he was a lot more aggressive and was bagging them from everywhere. I don't know if you can directly attribute that change to Pagan, but I hope that any new coach will have a similar effect on some of these players.

On a separate issue, really hope CFC have a close, hard look at the effectiveness of the leadership group as part of the big review. Actually, can anyone tell me, do the players get miked-up while playing, to check how they lead others???

I saw a match earlier in the year where Simon Black was miked-up for Ch7. Very insiteful, seeing him take younger players aside and letting them know that their effort was poor. I get the feeling from various posters on here that this is lacking in our group at the moment?

 

[koutamarto]

To all those posters who have been calling for Ellard's inclusion in the team, he should never wear a Carlton guernsey again. He is not AFL standard. On the flipside, all those posters who have bagged McLean, you have shown very poor judgement.

Garbage post. Just finished watching the game. Ellard was not great. He copped a huge corky within the first few minutes of being on the ground. Every time u saw him after that he could barely walk let alone run out a game of afl and have an impact. still had a crack has some class- more than bell and curnow. He has proven this year he is afl standard and I see a shaun grigg scenario at the end of the season.

 

[Baldur]

No doubt this game hurt you guys but after Fremantle defeated North, even if you had won you would not be playing finals. Both North & Fremantle are almost certain to win this week & end up on 14 wins.

So while you have good reason to be disappointed this loss did not cost you a finals chance.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

No doubt this game hurt you guys but after Fremantle defeated North, even if you had won you would not be playing finals. Both North & Fremantle are almost certain to win this week & end up on 14 wins.

So while you have good reason to be disappointed this loss did not cost you a finals chance.

No but at the time it was played, it was expected to be for finals. The players didn't go in with the mindset that finals were gone and that Freo would beat North.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

But where is this hardness going to all of a sudden come from? It isn't going to come from pre season training, problem between the ears needs to be fixed by forcing him to realise what is and isn't acceptable. It's not from lifting more weights so that he feels like he-man, he's already built enough.

Shopping him around could be just the wake up call that he needs. We can't drop him anymore, the season's over, shop him around and he'll hit pre season training with determination, I'll bet it'll force him to be bursting to get out there next year and prove himself. Of course, the flip side to it is, that he'll get pissed off at being shopped around and request a trade, but the good news is it'll be in our favour anyway because we don't have to trade him unless we get something good because he's contracted. Win/win imo.

I'd be concentrating on the flip side if I were you.

If you believe that a team's collective confidence is destroyed by the pressure of a top 4 requirement, or by the suggestion that IF we make finals, we will be dangerous, imagine what offering for trade is going to do to the confidence of a player, you believe is the weakest of them all. And you are doing it to motivate him?

Maybe this is having the cake and eating it too?

 

[Blue Flame]

But where is this hardness going to all of a sudden come from? It isn't going to come from pre season training, problem between the ears needs to be fixed by forcing him to realise what is and isn't acceptable. It's not from lifting more weights so that he feels like he-man, he's already built enough.

Shopping him around could be just the wake up call that he needs. We can't drop him anymore, the season's over, shop him around and he'll hit pre season training with determination, I'll bet it'll force him to be bursting to get out there next year and prove himself. Of course, the flip side to it is, that he'll get pissed off at being shopped around and request a trade, but the good news is it'll be in our favour anyway because we don't have to trade him unless we get something good because he's contracted. Win/win imo.

Tanks, I see your point, and I'm not trying to be dismissive. I think though, there is no more evidence to suggest that offering him up for trade will work than there is to suggest a new coach might develop that in him, or any other possibility. In reality we have no understanding of his psyche.
The issue with your point as I see it, is that there is the possibility that he waits until our of contract and then just walks because we don't respect him. I agree that a line needs to be drawn, but I'm not sure that is the way to do it.

 

[Sin City]

But where is this hardness going to all of a sudden come from? It isn't going to come from pre season training, problem between the ears needs to be fixed by forcing him to realise what is and isn't acceptable. It's not from lifting more weights so that he feels like he-man, he's already built enough.

Sloane, Dangerfield and Stiffy were probably the only Adelaide players I considered hard men last season. They haven't turned their list over that much have they?

 

[The Toad]

If I were playing for a club and they offered me up for trade, I would be out the door faster than a pommy on shower night.
How did it work for Voss with dodgy TV and Bradshaw.
There is no way Gibbs should be put up for trade, he is easily in the top 5 players at our club.

 

[PumpyChowdown]

Gibbs for Toby Greene.

I'd even throw in a third rounder to make that happen.

 

[Juddalenko]

Gibbs for Toby Greene.

I'd even throw in a third rounder to make that happen.

Interestingly, the commentators on the weekend mentioned that Greene was habitually playing a kick behind the play (basically playing off the turnover) and racking up possies that way. I haven't seen enough GWS games to comment on that - but I definitely remember him getting a stack of hard ball against us. That being said, I would believe he would be up there with Patton & Coniglio as least likely to be traded.

 

[PumpyChowdown]

Interestingly, the commentators on the weekend mentioned that Greene was habitually playing a kick behind the play (basically playing off the turnover) and racking up possies that way. I haven't seen enough GWS games to comment on that - but I definitely remember him getting a stack of hard ball against us. That being said, I would believe he would be up there with Patton & Coniglio as least likely to be traded.

I've watched just about every GWS game this year and this kid is a contested ball machine. Head over it all the time. He's been bandaged up quite a few times this year. Absolutely love the way he goes about his footy.

 

[Sin City]

Interestingly, the commentators on the weekend mentioned that Greene was habitually playing a kick behind the play (basically playing off the turnover) and racking up possies that way. I haven't seen enough GWS games to comment on that - but I definitely remember him getting a stack of hard ball against us. That being said, I would believe he would be up there with Patton & Coniglio as least likely to be traded.

Nah I heard it too, it was just a convenient cliche because he turned the ball over in the back half. Greene hits the ball as hard as anyone and is at the bottom of every pack.