Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

[ant555]

People are over stating the whole ‘big bodies’ inside mid thing. We beat fairly convincingly the best midfield group in the AFL with soldiers missing (McGrath, Caldwell, Langford).

Evidence that system helps not just size. Add more running power and a much better connect between midfield and forward and we could win that game by 5 goals.


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Agree with the big body inside comment. We do have elite clearance winners and Stringer has become our big body bull at center bounces. IMO what we need as far as midfield goes is a classy taller player who can take a few marks and uses the ball well. After that just keep looking for a Jack Graham type in the middle of the draft.

The running power is an interesting point. Bruno has mentioned it before in the comparisons with the Tigers. One reason they have pressured the way they have has been the running power of their midfield and flankers. Right now they have come back to the field a bit because that running power has been compromised through injury and a lot of young players in the side. We certainly do need to get a few back plus add a bit to it.

 

[Dave]

With the retirement of Cale Hooker

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Cale Hooker

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37

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198cm

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103kg

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D/F

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Last 5

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16.2

4star

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8.2

3star

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8.0

5star

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6.3

5star

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1.8

4star

MG

213.6

3star

D

11.8

3star

K

5.8

2star

HB

6.0

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

0.8

1star

MG

107.0

2star

D

14.6

4star

K

3.2

2star

HB

11.4

5star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

we now have 4 players with over 150 games experience on our list, one of whom, Zaharakis, wouldn't be expected by many to get significant game time next year.

All up, 6 with more than 100 games. Be interesting to see how such a young list develops and how consistent they can be.

 

[Bjchan13]

With the retirement of Cale Hooker we now have 4 players with over 150 games experience on our list, one of whom, Zaharakis, wouldn't be expected by many to get significant game time next year.

All up, 6 with more than 100 games. Be interesting to see how such a young list develops and how consistent they can be.

Zaka out of contract and most likely done you'd think. Stringer, Merrett, Parish, Shiel, Heppell, Smith and Tippa have all played 100 games and Langford is on 98. Also Hurls contracted for next year and i think he'll be important around the club even if he only plays a handful of games.

 

[Keystone agony]

Do we have a big play at King end of 2022 or goes without saying?

Salary cap room won't be an issue. Sun's would obviously want a fair bit for him but also understand he's out of contract. 2 first rounders and some

 

[Dave]

Zaka out of contract and most likely done you'd think. Stringer, Merrett, Parish, Shiel, Heppell, Smith and Tippa have all played 100 games and Langford is on 98. Also Hurls contracted for next year and i think he'll be important around the club even if he only plays a handful of games.

Yeah, I was looking at games played for us

 

[Jobe Watson]

And this weekend showed exactly why we do need to find another AFL-standard key forward. Most teams won't let us get away with our two key targets having 0 goals between them.

Wright plays one good game a month, Jones isn't ready to carry a forward line yet, Francis is lost as a forward and Hooker is now gone.

I don't know who's out there that we could reasonably get, but if we want to push for finals again next year it's probably the biggest weakness (list management wise) we need to address this off-season.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Wright is fine. We can afford to wait a year for Jones to fill out and one of Eyre, Baldwin, McBride or Bryan to come on enough to play a third tall roll.

We're several years from doing anything of note in September, plenty of time to find a KPF trade target before our winder even opens if none of those guys develop into an AFL standard KPF.

 

[Keystone agony]

Wright is fine. We can afford to wait a year for Jones to fill out and one of Eyre, Baldwin, McBride or Bryan to come on enough to play a third tall roll.

We're several years from doing anything of note in September, plenty of time to find a KPF trade target before our winder even opens if none of those guys develop into an AFL standard KPF.

You don't think we can do anything of note in September 2023?

 

[Ants]

I was having this conversation with the better half a couple days ago, when watching Essendon's mids consistently overpower the Dogs - you'd genuinely have to go back 15 years or more to find the last time Essendon seemed to have obvious advantages in the midfield and ruck.

The midfield and ruck was pretty dominant 2011-2013 as long as you ignored the last 5-7 games of each season.

And this weekend showed exactly why we do need to find another AFL-standard key forward. Most teams won't let us get away with our two key targets having 0 goals between them.

Wright plays one good game a month, Jones isn't ready to carry a forward line yet, Francis is lost as a forward and Hooker is now gone.

I don't know who's out there that we could reasonably get, but if we want to push for finals again next year it's probably the biggest weakness (list management wise) we need to address this off-season.

I thought both were significant contributors on the weekend. The number of times Wright took two with him to the marking contest, leaving crumbs for our smalls, was insane. We do need a third option as too often (especially Q1) we had Waterman as the deepest forward and kicked to him. But I'm pretty comfortable with a Jones, Wright and Francis setup. Baldwin and Eyre as wildcards.

 

[Ants]

In my view, I think Hurley will call it quits. I also think Zerk will ask for a trade to a team who will give him more opportunity. Which I think is a loss, but our coaches don't. Might get a (latish) 3rd rounder for him. Despite those two and Hooker and Ambrose leaving, I think we're still fine for talls. Yes, we'll have some youngsters, but we want to give them opportunities. With (in rough age order) Stewart, Wright, Lav, Francis, Ridley, Jones, McBride, Baldwin, Eyre and Brand we've got a lot of options which blend mature bodies with youth. That youth won't come on without opportunities, so let's not fill a best 22 position with a stop-gap. Get me a King and I'd change my view, but I don't see any top-end talls available.

So for me its likely to be:

Out: Hooker, Ambrose, Hurley, Zaka, Mozzie, Johnson, Zerk
Durham takes a list spot, leaving six players coming in. In this scenario we have 5 rookies (Gleeson, Clarke, Baldwin, Waterman, Durham), or 6 if we don't promote Snelling this year (which we don't have to with the rule change). So all six picks would be national draft, but we can use extra rookie spots if there are players we don't rate enough and want to give single year contracts to.

We may trade one of the (three) third rounders we will have in this situation for a fringe player, trying to get another Hind/Wright. But assuming that doesn't pan out I'd be going:

• R1: best mid who has good disposal, some height would also be nice. Preferably one who could be brought in through the side off a flank (like Heppell, McGrath, Zerrett, Zaka, Mercuri, etc.), and no issues if they're not ready for 3-4 seasons to midfield. I wouldn't be against an out-and-out small forward if we think someone like Rachelle is an outstanding prospect.
• R3s: a small back, a small forward, and a midfield workhorse
• Late picks/extra rookies: Wanganeen & Moore

This fills what I consider our biggest gaps, small forwards, backs, and midfield depth. We need support for Walla crumbing/pressuring/goal kicking. Small backs given we have very few; currently only Gleeson isn't in the best 22 which has Hind, Redman, Heppell and Cutler playing those roles. This is desperately short. We literally have nobody other than Gleeson, which is why we trialled Cahill there over preseason.

And just more mids since we know we'll always have injuries. If the R1 mid can play at a good level forward short-term, then given our 2022 father-son and NGA options are a lot of forwards or wing/forwards, spending the three R3s on inside mids and backs could also work.

2022 Off season
I believe you need to keep one eye on the next off-season as well when list planning. Even if its all a great deal more uncertain.

Next year, use our R1 to trade for gaps. We're still having problems at FF/FB? Trade that pick (and 2023 1st if a good enough candidate is there). We desperately need a small back? Trade it out (probably with something back). Also a good year to utilise FA. Premiership history is littered with teams "overpaying" for solid contributors like Redden, Chick, Caddy, Hale, who are important cogs on Grand Final day. Be willing to fill any hole here.

With the rule changes for rookies who were on the list during 2020, we'll be able to keep Hird and McBride on the Cat B list for 2023 (assuming they're still deserving). Which is a good thing, since we may be a little light on for obvious 2022 delistings. Cahill, Phillips, Guelfi, Ham, and Cutler would all be at risk off the main list, but that feels about it. And a number could easily make a case to be retained. Off the rookie list Clarke (R), Gleeson (R) and other rookies if they haven't worked out (Baldwin, Waterman).

Based on that list, I wouldn't be against keeping one of the 2021 delistings for one year, so we take 5 this year and have an extra candidate for 2022 delisting. If Hurley doesn't retire, he'll obviously fill that role.

No idea how many list spots we'll need, with three decent to good F/S prospects (Davey x2 + Allessio) and some NGA prospects who might be outside the top 40 cut-off but still worthy of being drafted.

 

[bacon buster]

No interest in Daniel Talia

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Daniel Talia

Age

34

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197cm

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98kg

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Def

Career

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Last 5

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12.0

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

5.0

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.8

4star

MG

169.9

3star

D

10.4

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

2.5

2star

M

4.5

4star

T

1.1

2star

MG

187.6

3star

D

11.4

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

4.4

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M

2.2

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3.4

5star

at all?

29, been a very good full back. If he can get his body right I’d be keen to have a look at him as an unrestricted FA

 

[Ants]

No interest in Daniel Talia at all?

29, been a very good full back. If he can get his body right I’d be keen to have a look at him as an unrestricted FA

I see Talia as a trap. IMO there are two possibilities:

1. He's still good to go, despite turning 30 in a month, missing a year of footy, and looking dodgy in 2020. In which case, why on earth is he coming to us? He can see our young talls. We surely wouldn't offer a big contract. Why not go to a Bulldogs, Geelong, Richmond who need what he can bring (assuming he's fit). The first two are both contending, he'd be giving himself another shot.
2. There are significant doubts on his fitness and/or form. Why are we using a list spot on him then? As I've just written above, across the next two years we've only got about 7 obvious delistings/retirements, with a few maybe don't progresses. Can we afford to use a list spot on him?

So I'd be very suspicious if he chose us over a contender, or someone with a more blatant need.

If we do get him, and play him, who is coming out of our best 22? The obvious one is Stewart, but surely Reid is going to be all over that slot anyway? We could shift Lav & Ridley down the size categories, but I'm not sure that's optimal. And what happens if Francis doesn't work out up forward? You're suddenly trying to fit Talia, Ridley, Lav, Francis, Stewart and Reid into one backline.

No. IMO we over-spent (deliberately) on talls in 2019 and 2020 to give us youngsters to fill the spots. We should trust in them at least one more year, when we'll know more about them.

 

[Old Campaigner]

You don't think we can do anything of note in September 2023?

That’s probably the earliest I see us in the top 4, all going well.

 

[Keystone agony]

That’s probably the earliest I see us in the top 4, all going well.

That's not that far away

 

[Keystone agony]

No interest in Daniel Talia at all?

29, been a very good full back. If he can get his body right I’d be keen to have a look at him as an unrestricted FA

He will be turning 31 next year.

That's a stkilda move with Frawley, Mckernan

By the time we can realistically be doing anything late 2023 he will be turning 32. I'd think at that time if we get 24 months development into a guy like Reid then the difference in output in 2 years time from now will be pretty minimal

If we lose 4 of Ambrose, Hurley, Hooker, BZT, Francis then I do think another tall back is required. Happy to lose 3 especially the older ones.

 

[bacon buster]

He will be turning 31 next year.

That's a stkilda move with Frawley, Mckernan

By the time we can realistically be doing anything late 2023 he will be turning 32. I'd think at that time if we get 24 months development into a guy like Reid then the difference in output in 2 years time from now will be pretty minimal

If we lose 4 of Ambrose, Hurley, Hooker, BZT, Francis then I do think another tall back is required. Happy to lose 3 especially the older ones.

i wouldn't be overpaying him by any means. if we can pick him up dirt cheap (which would mean he'd want to come - not sure if there is a Rutten conenction or not)

Talia is a much better player than Frawley ever was, in fairness, and Mckernan isn't even in that conversation tbf

I'm not wedded to it, i just think it's worth exploring, under the right conditions.

 

[Lore]

He will be turning 31 next year.

That's a stkilda move with Frawley, Mckernan

By the time we can realistically be doing anything late 2023 he will be turning 32. I'd think at that time if we get 24 months development into a guy like Reid then the difference in output in 2 years time from now will be pretty minimal

If we lose 4 of Ambrose, Hurley, Hooker, BZT, Francis then I do think another tall back is required. Happy to lose 3 especially the older ones.

People who are currently 29 have about a 30% chance of turning 31 next year, but of that 30%, they have a 75% chance of having a birthday after the season is already over…

In this particular case, Talia falls into the 75% of the 30%, his birthday is at the start of October and he will therefore be 30 and 31 in seasons 2022 and 2023 respectively.

Not that age is necessarily an issue- more and more players are playing into their 30s. If he were to go to Geelong he’d still have half a career ahead of him!

 

[blitzer]

I can see the argument both ways. If Talia is fit - I think he could be a good transition option as we wait for our younger key defenders to develop.

On the flipside he could actually hold our young defenders back from developing by taking a spot.

I guess it depends how far away we think we are from really challenging. I think seeing how we finish off this year will give us a fair indication given we've now got a reasonably healthy list at last.

 

[Keystone agony]

People who are currently 29 have about a 30% chance of turning 31 next year, but of that 30%, they have a 75% chance of having a birthday after the season is already over…

In this particular case, Talia falls into the 75% of the 30%, his birthday is at the start of October and he will therefore be 30 and 31 in seasons 2022 and 2023 respectively.

Not that age is necessarily an issue- more and more players are playing into their 30s. If he were to go to Geelong he’d still have half a career ahead of him!

Not sure what your saying

He turns 31 next year

 

[Lore]

Not sure what your saying

He turns 31 next year

He turns 31 in October next year. The season runs through to September

 

[ant555]

No interest in Daniel Talia at all?

29, been a very good full back. If he can get his body right I’d be keen to have a look at him as an unrestricted FA

Given we have gone in the direction we have no. We have gone down the intercept / attacking defender road and not the stopper road. BZT can not get a regular game as they feel he is not great with the footy in his hands. I very much doubt they will be looking at Talia. Have been a fan but he is not the style of player they are looking at for defense.

 

[BrunoV]

He turns 31 in October next year. The season runs through to September

I don't understand why the industry complicates this issue to the extent it does with cut offs based on age when the season starts and ends.

It may be relevant to late developing 18 years olds born late in a draft year but that is it.

Talia is in his 31st year next year. Whether or not he turns 31 by seasons end is not relevant. The issue is the wear on his body over the course of a career which doesn't recognise birth date. It's not an accounting exercise which enables him to delay the effects of the season by a year just because he hasn't reached 31.

 

[Zach Package]

Given we have gone in the direction we have no. We have gone down the intercept / attacking defender road and not the stopper road. BZT can not get a regular game as they feel he is not great with the footy in his hands. I very much doubt they will be looking at Talia. Have been a fan but he is not the style of player they are looking at for defense.

Agree, we seem to be going down the Geelong route with one proper KPD and the rest are basically flankers who can take an overhead mark. I only give this any chance of happening because of the obvious Talia/Truck connection.

Would suspect that if we do go for some form of mature tall it will be a forward, rather than a defender.

 

[Vindicater]

No interest in Daniel Talia at all?

29, been a very good full back. If he can get his body right I’d be keen to have a look at him as an unrestricted FA

Nah. He is cooked.

 

[Ants]

Zerk signed for two years. I think that puts a line through getting Talia.

I'm very happy with this, but confused how EFC is treating him. If they rate him more than the guys in the best 22 (because they gave him a 2 year contract), why didn't they give him more games this year?

Doesn't change my post above too much.