Society/Culture The Abortion Thread

[Snake_Baker]

You can say the same for the female in defense of not permitting abortion...

If she can't effectively use birth control, why should she be able to opt-out of parenthood? What if the father wants to keep the child and the mother doesn't?

It's not a short and simple discussion.

Agree. If the man is expected to have responsibilities, then he should also expect some rights.

 

[Pie eyed]

You can say the same for the female in defense of not permitting abortion...

If she can't effectively use birth control, why should she be able to opt-out of parenthood? What if the father wants to keep the child and the mother doesn't?

It's not a short and simple discussion.

Maybe she was forced not to use birth control by her religious masters?
Maybe if she is dumb enough to follow doctrine she is too dumb to raise a child?
Who knows but at the end of the day it is not your decision, certainly not any religious cults. It's hers.

 

[faible]

Maybe she was forced not to use birth control by her religious masters?
Maybe if she is dumb enough to follow doctrine she is too dumb to raise a child?
Who knows but at the end of the day it is not your decision, certainly not any religious cults. It's hers.

Where do I mention religion in any way?

Is a child the property of the mother, or should both parents have a say?

 

[Pie eyed]

Where do I mention religion in any way?

Is a child the property of the mother, or should both parents have a say?

The child is actually a part of the mother up to a stage....
I agree it is not a short and simple discussion, but it's been had a millions times.

I am happy with the current law as a father of 2 girls, I trust I have raised them to make an educated and informed decision should they ever have to. I am very happy they have the extremely hard fought right to make the decision.
Sans interference by self interest groups like the religious it's a no brainer and solely a matter for the individual.
No one has to have an abortion. It is a personal decision.

 

[faible]

The child is actually a part of the mother up to a stage....
I agree it is not a short and simple discussion, but it's been had a millions times.

I am happy with the current law as a father of 2 girls, I trust I have raised them to make an educated and informed decision should they ever have to. I am very happy they have the extremely hard fought right to make the decision.
Sans interference by self interest groups like the religious it's a no brainer and solely a matter for the individual.
No one has to have an abortion. It is a personal decision.

I agree that they should have the right to do as they see fit, I just disagree with the current imbalance in the laws between genders.

Nothing to do with religion at all.

I do understand why someone who believes a fetus is a living human being from the moment of conception would find the concept of abortion abhorrent however, even if I don’t agree with their perspective.

 

[Leeda]

Lordy I was confusing abortion with adoption. I am not sure that either are mutually exclusive. Other than that one has an
opinion about the start and the other gets confused about the beginning and the ongoing effort.

I don't want people to have children if they can't or won't or don't want to look after them.

but the other idea is that I don't want people to not deliver the ultimate prize and then not want to look after where 'it' goes
from thereafter.

these things are all sentimental and will cause a great grief about letting go somehow.

but I am all for not letting so called children to be 'started' and then given nothing. I guess I am then working on the idea that
fostering or adopting children is the next best thing.

random thoughts about nothing but what is always important.. I am a child of adoption and also of the potential of abortion...
In other words, that I could have been 'dropkicked' before being born or else that I as I have been allowed to be born and to carry
on a life of some substance.. it is why I try so hard to make sense, to be relevant and to allow myself to join in life as well
as I can...

 

[ShanDog]

Lordy I was confusing abortion with adoption. I am not sure that either are mutually exclusive. Other than that one has an
opinion about the start and the other gets confused about the beginning and the ongoing effort.

I don't want people to have children if they can't or won't or don't want to look after them.

but the other idea is that I don't want people to not deliver the ultimate prize and then not want to look after where 'it' goes
from thereafter.

these things are all sentimental and will cause a great grief about letting go somehow.

but I am all for not letting so called children to be 'started' and then given nothing. I guess I am then working on the idea that
fostering or adopting children is the next best thing.

random thoughts about nothing but what is always important.. I am a child of adoption and also of the potential of abortion...
In other words, that I could have been 'dropkicked' before being born or else that I as I have been allowed to be born and to carry
on a life of some substance.. it is why I try so hard to make sense, to be relevant and to allow myself to join in life as well
as I can...

When I'm not sure of where I stand, it's often people like yourself who come to mind. Your existence is owed to abortion either not being an option at the time, or a conscious decision not to do so. When in doubt, you have to err on the side of encouraging life I think. We hold life and the right to it as sacrosanct in western society. I can't shake the feeling that every argument for abortion is a rationalisation away from that transcendent value.

 

[Leeda]

When I'm not sure of where I stand, it's often people like yourself who come to mind. Your existence is owed to abortion either not being an option at the time, or a conscious decision not to do so. When in doubt, you have to err on the side of encouraging life I think. We hold life and the right to it as sacrosanct in western society. I can't shake the feeling that every argument for abortion is a rationalisation away from that transcendent value.

yes you are right. i gather every day the thoughts that I could not or may not be here but also the other idea is that have I done enough to earn my
space here in the world?
but it is not about me but a very deep thought about people in general and that everyone has a part to play but on the other side that everyone is
somewhat not important when you consider the number of people in the world... How am I more important than those in India who have nothing or practically
nothing and still live... and then others who earn billions and where does that money go?

the world is not fair but it is important that we all tackle the deeper thoughts about life in general and shatter some illusions, delusions or else just
entertain the idea that everyone is worth something.. I struggle with my idea of self worth when there are so many who have little or less and I
can't complain about the internet dropping out.. It is a bastard of a world sometimes..

 

[ShanDog]

yes you are right. i gather every day the thoughts that I could not or may not be here but also the other idea is that have I done enough to earn my
space here in the world?
but it is not about me but a very deep thought about people in general and that everyone has a part to play but on the other side that everyone is
somewhat not important when you consider the number of people in the world... How am I more important than those in India who have nothing or practically
nothing and still live... and then others who earn billions and where does that money go?

the world is not fair but it is important that we all tackle the deeper thoughts about life in general and shatter some illusions, delusions or else just
entertain the idea that everyone is worth something.. I struggle with my idea of self worth when there are so many who have little or less and I
can't complain about the internet dropping out.. It is a bastard of a world sometimes..

My man to the rescue:



Life IS suffering. What do you do about it? Try to reduce it.

 

[Leeda]

My man to the rescue:



Life IS suffering. What do you do about it? Try to reduce it.

beautiful but I have enough heart to heart dudes in my filofax... ooh how old..

crisis is opportunity and well I go through that week to week..

 

[Procrastinator35]

My man to the rescue:



Life IS suffering. What do you do about it? Try to reduce it.

Nothing the Buddha hasn't already taught us.....The Physician's (Read Doctor of the Soul's) creed: "First Do no harm'

Comes across as a frustrated preacher.

But Yes....Meaning is to be found & grounded within our universal existential condition.....and suffering is a large part of that.

It's the easiest thing in the world to run away into denial.....Modernity to a tee.....But, to sit & stay with the pain & to own it....That is the lesson of the Buddha.

 

[ShanDog]

Nothing the Buddha hasn't already taught us.....The Physician's (Read Doctor of the Soul's) creed: "First Do no harm'

Comes across as a frustrated preacher.

If you don't know the back story and his life's work, it can seem that way. You also musn't have listened until close to the end where he describes that these ideas are the oldest ideas of mankind.

I think you would really enjoy Peterson's Maps of Meaning lecture series. It's based on his pretty epic first book, broken down into about a dozen lectures of 1-2 hours detailing the mythologies and archetypes of human existence from the very first civilisations, and how these same messages have permeated history and are represented today, still having the same significant effects on how we view life, society, ourselves and others.



Edit: There's a couple of versions, and the linked vid should bring up the playlist of his lectures at the University of Toronto where his book was turned into a uni course itself.

Double Edit: Lecture 10 is Genesis and the Buddha

 

[Procrastinator35]

If you don't know the back story and his life's work, it can seem that way. You also musn't have listened until close to the end where he describes that these ideas are the oldest ideas of mankind.

I think you would really enjoy Peterson's Maps of Meaning lecture series. It's based on his pretty epic first book, broken down into about a dozen lectures of 1-2 hours detailing the mythologies and archetypes of human existence from the very first civilizations, and how these same messages have permeated history and are represented today, still having the same significant effects on how we view life, society, ourselves and others.

No, I listened all the way to the end alright....Though he never cited the Buddha.

Oh Yes, absolutely....Human nature never changes.....Those self-same psychic archetypes that populated our distant ancestors mind-set are still alive & well within us today.....One mustn't argue with Plato on that score.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Edit: There's a couple of versions, and the linked vid should bring up the playlist of his lectures at the University of Toronto where his book was turned into a uni course itself.

Double Edit: Lecture 10 is Genesis and the Buddha

2 & a half hours ShanDog?.....Maybe 2moz mate.

Suffice to say that wisdom lies in the heart....And the heart is the center & the home to much pain & suffering....The human ego (mind) is geared to run from pain.

Such is our conundrum.

 

[ShanDog]

2 & a half hours ShanDog?.....Maybe 2moz mate.

Suffice to say that wisdom lies in the heart....And the heart is the center & the home to much pain & suffering....The human ego (mind) is geared to run from pain.

Such is our conundrum.

Oh yeah, he doesn't just touch on these subjects. It's a full-on course conducted by someone 30+ years into their research on the topic. I've listened to several of his lecture series (including older versions of the Maps of Meaning) and it has taken months to get through each one. Finding time (and energy) to set aside and get something out of it isn't easy. Worth it though.

 

[ShanDog]

Sorry, thread derailed by me. Back to the far more pleasant topic of abortion....

 

[Taylor]

I think religion has a big part to play in solving some medical problems, just as the JWs did with development of blood retention during surgery - not that they did the work but to benefit that style of belief.

As soon as an embryo can be removed and grown to maturity in a chamber the better.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Oh yeah, he doesn't just touch on these subjects. It's a full-on course conducted by someone 30+ years into their research on the topic. I've listened to several of his lecture series (including older versions of the Maps of Meaning) and it has taken months to get through each one. Finding time (and energy) to set aside and get something out of it isn't easy. Worth it though.

I'll definitely get around to it.....Sounds similar to a Shambhala course of meditation & reflection upon the human condition.

Here, I'll throw one back at you that I did in my early 30's, when I went through my Jungian stage, as a course of entry into the sacred wound at the heart of the male psyche.

 

[Snake_Baker]

My man to the rescue:



Life IS suffering. What do you do about it? Try to reduce it.

It's impossible to flippantly dismiss Peterson and maintain intellectual sincerity.

He is currently the greatest nemesis confronting the creep of SJW ideology, and they know it.

 

[Procrastinator35]

It's impossible to flippantly dismiss Peterson and maintain intellectual sincerity.

He is currently the greatest nemesis confronting the creep of SJW ideology, and they know it.

Truth has nothing to do with the Hegelian left/right dialectical paradigm.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Truth has nothing to do with the Hegelian left/right dialectical paradigm.

And?

 

[Run n Spread]

You can not force a woman to carry and give birth if she doesn't want to.

IMO up to a certain point you are not taking a life but a potential life as an embryo moves from a series of cells to a fully fledged human.

 

[Run n Spread]

I think religion has a big part to play in solving some medical problems, just as the JWs did with development of blood retention during surgery - not that they did the work but to benefit that style of belief.

As soon as an embryo can be removed and grown to maturity in a chamber the better.

Maybe but how will that help with unwanted pregnancies?

Unless a bunch of 18yos then decide to get sterilised not much will change.

 

[Run n Spread]

Agree. If the man is expected to have responsibilities, then he should also expect some rights.

Maybe. Kind of like if a woman ops in and a man out he has no parental rights whatsover but no obligation.

Essentially a sperm donor.

I guess you could have a problem of dudes bolting out of marriages/bad relationships if an accident happened but pro choice right?

Issues either way. All I'll say is true equality will come with the male pill or equivalent. (And even then contraception stuffs up).

 

[Taylor]

Maybe but how will that help with unwanted pregnancies?

Unless a bunch of 18yos then decide to get sterilised not much will change.

An unwanted pregnancy simply gets transferred to the chamber, everyone wins.

The woman doesn't have to carry the child, the father can keep the child if he chooses, the child gets to live, maybe the government end up with a generation of tank babies born without any of the issues that can be caused by poor diet, drug use including alcohol. Save money on developmental issues caused by poor mothering and raise all babies in the tanks.

It would put incontinence pads out of business though.