Society/Culture The Abortion Thread

[ShanDog]

Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it isn’t murder!

Might want to rethink your wording there. If it's legal it quite literally isn't murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another person. What you're trying to say is that abortion SHOULD be considered the illegal killing of another person.

 

[chelseacarlton]

Abortion is not a womens issue. The discussion on what constitutes life is far bigger and more important than feminism and women's rights.

It is solely and wholly a women’s issue and should always remain as such!!
I agree with your 2nd premise!

Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it isn’t murder!

Refer to Shans 2nd point!
The blatant theft and destruction of a child’s innocence is a far greater moral evil than abortion!

 

[ShanDog]

It is solely and wholly a women’s issue and should always remain as such!!

Abortion doesn't only affect women. The fact that a fetus can only exist inside a female body is almost negligible in the context of discussing the status of a fetus. Conflating that with birth control issues is a fallacy. The two issues aren't on the same planet, let alone ball park.

 

[chelseacarlton]

Abortion is not a womens issue. The discussion on what constitutes life is far bigger and more important than feminism and women's rights.

Oh for ****s sake you ignorant campaigner!!
It’s a political or religious issue is it?
You’re a ****ing disgrace!

 

[chelseacarlton]

Abortion doesn't only affect women. The fact that a fetus can only exist inside a female body is almost negligible in the context of discussing the status of a fetus. Conflating that with birth control issues is a fallacy. The two issues aren't on the same planet, let alone ball park.

Refer to previous post!
I unfortunately thought more of you mate,obviously I was dead wrong!

 

[ShanDog]

Oh for ****s sake you ignorant campaigner!!
It’s a political or religious issue is it?
You’re a ******* disgrace!

Refer to previous post!
I unfortunately thought more of you mate,obviously I was dead wrong!

I'm not sure we are communicating properly here, because that's way over the top and politics or religion is nothing to do with what I'm taking talking about. It's specifically the opposite as far as I'm concerned.

I say abortion is not about women's rights (regarding birth control or otherwise) because the whole issue is predicated on the point of where a fertilised egg is considered a life form. It's not a cut and dry thing at all. There are various definitions of this depending on what state of what country you are in, or which medical standard you look up (WHO Vs National Regulators Vs your GP etc). There's no consensus which makes the contention of when life starts self-evident.

So assuming you reach a position on where life starts (wherever that is) you then have to consider how that relates to the point at which intervening in the fertilisation and pregnancy process is acceptable. This is a moral and ethical issue that is also framed within acceptable cultural and legal guidelines. And again, all of those things will differ depending on which one you ascribe to, or where you live etc.

Once you've figured out where life begins, and then made the determination about where a life (or otherwise categorised entity) can be interfered woth, you can have a position on abortion, but you can't say "It's a woman's issue alone" in any way. For every "cluster of cells" there is a father and their wishes to contend with, there's the social issues and considerations about whether the state should be offering abortion services and myriad other concerns, all of which either directly or indirectly affect men too. Of course there's the whole thing about the sex of that developing human also perhaps being a male too, so it's certainly not exclusive effecting women.

Abortion is a moral, ethical, social and genderless issue. No religion or politics necessary.

 

[Admiral Byng]

What a great deflection from the Cardinal. Stop people talking about kiddy-fiddlers and debating the undefinable issue underlying abortion.

 

[Maggie5]

Once you've figured out where life begins, and then made the determination about where a life (or otherwise categorised entity) can be interfered woth, you can have a position on abortion, but you can't say "It's a woman's issue alone" in any way. For every "cluster of cells" there is a father and their wishes to contend with, there's the social issues and considerations about whether the state should be offering abortion services and myriad other concerns, all of which either directly or indirectly affect men too. Of course there's the whole thing about the sex of that developing human also perhaps being a male too, so it's certainly not exclusive effecting women.

Abortion is a moral, ethical, social and genderless issue. No religion or politics necessary.

Then what if the 'father' wants the woman to carry the child through pregnacy and the 'woman' wants to abort? Or in the worst case scenario the pregnacy is the result of a rape? Not sure that I would like others to make the decision on my behalf.

 

[ShanDog]

Then what if the 'father' wants the woman to carry the child through pregnacy and the 'woman' wants to abort? Or in the worst case scenario the pregnacy is the result of a rape? Not sure that I would like others to make the decision on my behalf.

That's my point - there's more to it than reductively saying "it's exclusively a women's issue". It's far more complex. I'm still not 100% sure where I stand on the issue and am challenged by a lot of the ethics surrounding it. It baffles me how anyone else can be so staunchly for or against.

 

[Maggie5]

That's my point - there's more to it than reductively saying "it's exclusively a women's issue". It's far more complex. I'm still not 100% sure where I stand on the issue and am challenged by a lot of the ethics surrounding it. It baffles me how anyone else can be so staunchly for or against.

Think that you may have missed my point - my body, my decision.

 

[faible]

Think that you may have missed my point - my body, my decision.

At what point do you consider abortion to no longer be acceptable?

 

[ShanDog]

Think that you may have missed my point - my body, my decision.

And what of the considerations I wrote about before?

 

[Lebbo73]

It is solely and wholly a women’s issue and should always remain as such!!
I agree with your 2nd premise!

Refer to Shans 2nd point!
The blatant theft and destruction of a child’s innocence is a far greater moral evil than abortion!

I’m not arguing with you over this horrific crime. Whether it was true or not, I felt no remorse for the kiddie-fiddler that Chopper claims to have killed in prison.
Abortion is murder in my book ShanDog!

 

[Maggie5]

At what point do you consider abortion to no longer be acceptable?

When the doctors say so.

And what of the considerations I wrote about before?

I have considered them - "Abortion is a moral, ethical, social and genderless issue", it may be all of those things, however it is the female that must carry for 9 months.

 

[faible]

When the doctors say so.

I have considered them - "Abortion is a moral, ethical, social and genderless issue", it may be all of those things, however it is the female that must carry for 9 months.

So when a doctor says it’s no longer appropriate to have an abortion; it’s no longer your body, your choice?

 

[Maggie5]

So when a doctor says it’s no longer appropriate to have an abortion; it’s no longer your body, your choice?

I meant for the person carrying the child.

 

[chelseacarlton]

I'm not sure we are communicating properly here, because that's way over the top and politics or religion is nothing to do with what I'm taking talking about. It's specifically the opposite as far as I'm concerned.

I say abortion is not about women's rights (regarding birth control or otherwise) because the whole issue is predicated on the point of where a fertilised egg is considered a life form. It's not a cut and dry thing at all. There are various definitions of this depending on what state of what country you are in, or which medical standard you look up (WHO Vs National Regulators Vs your GP etc). There's no consensus which makes the contention of when life starts self-evident.

So assuming you reach a position on where life starts (wherever that is) you then have to consider how that relates to the point at which intervening in the fertilisation and pregnancy process is acceptable. This is a moral and ethical issue that is also framed within acceptable cultural and legal guidelines. And again, all of those things will differ depending on which one you ascribe to, or where you live etc.

Once you've figured out where life begins, and then made the determination about where a life (or otherwise categorised entity) can be interfered woth, you can have a position on abortion, but you can't say "It's a woman's issue alone" in any way. For every "cluster of cells" there is a father and their wishes to contend with, there's the social issues and considerations about whether the state should be offering abortion services and myriad other concerns, all of which either directly or indirectly affect men too. Of course there's the whole thing about the sex of that developing human also perhaps being a male too, so it's certainly not exclusive effecting women.

Abortion is a moral, ethical, social and genderless issue. No religion or politics necessary.

No,I may have over reacted slightly,I still love you,but don’t have time now!
Laterz I will reply in kind and set my thoughts down without expletives,maybe!

 

[Procrastinator35]

So when a doctor says it’s no longer appropriate to have an abortion; it’s no longer your body, your choice?

By 'appropriate' I assume you mean safe to do so?.....There are always other options on the table, like adoption for example.

It is still illegal in most states to medically abort after around 25 weeks?....Not sure on that figure, but somewhere thereabouts, from memory.

 

[faible]

I meant for the person carrying the child.

I’m not sure what you mean by that?

By 'appropriate' I assume you mean safe to do so?.....There are always other options on the table, like adoption for example.

It is still illegal in most states to medically abort after around 25 weeks?....Not sure on that figure, but somewhere thereabouts, from memory.

I meant as in the above cutoff, there’s a point at which an abortion is no longer legal.

I just find it odd that people get so offended when someone is anti-abortion on the back of a difference of opinion as to when life commences.

Most of us would agree murder is wrong, and is particularly abhorrent when committed against a child.

If someone considers that child exists from the moment of conception then I’d say that’s a pretty fair position to take about abortion.

I don’t necessarily agree with the above position, but I can understand the point of view of it.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I meant as in the above cutoff, there’s a point at which an abortion is no longer legal.

I just find it odd that people get so offended when someone is anti-abortion on the back of a difference of opinion as to when life commences.

Most of us would agree murder is wrong, and is particularly abhorrent when committed against a child.

If someone considers that child exists from the moment of conception then I’d say that’s a pretty fair position to take about abortion.

I don’t necessarily agree with the above position, but I can understand the point of view of it.

If my memory serves me, from my old Uni days of Moral Phil class, it all revolves around the concept of person-hood....At what stage of foetal development we can ascertain person-hood?.....Does a foetus engage in conscious thought?....Or is the definition of 'life' defined solely by the independent heart-beat of an organism?

Of course, all fetuses are fully dependent upon their mother's heart-beat, so true independence of life, at least from a purely bio-organic perspective, cannot be said to have been achieved prior to child-birth itself & our first breath.

There are many factors to be considered & I don't actually have a problem with anyone's beliefs or stance on the issue....Far be it for me to moralize to anyone else on what to believe & how to live their life.....Which means that I am pro-choice on the issue.

 

[Maggie5]

I’m not sure what you mean by that?
I meant as in the above cutoff, there’s a point at which an abortion is no longer legal.
I just find it odd that people get so offended when someone is anti-abortion on the back of a difference of opinion as to when life commences.
Most of us would agree murder is wrong, and is particularly abhorrent when committed against a child.
If someone considers that child exists from the moment of conception then I’d say that’s a pretty fair position to take about abortion.
I don’t necessarily agree with the above position, but I can understand the point of view of it.

According to the Family Planning site:
Abortion is the termination (end) of a pregnancy. Most abortions are performed during the first trimester of pregnancy (up to 12 weeks), but some may be performed in the second trimester (12 to 24 weeks) or, in rare circumstances, in the third trimester (24 to 36 weeks).

What does the Victorian law say about abortion?
Not more than 24 weeks pregnant
The law allows women to choose to have an abortion. The service must be provided by a registered medical practitioner. Services providing the procedure beyond 16 weeks are limited and can be costly.

More than 24 weeks pregnant
The law allows for abortion if at least two doctors agree that the abortion is appropriate in all the circumstances. In making their decision, the doctors must consider all relevant medical circumstances and the woman's current and future physical, psychological and social circumstances. It is very uncommon for an abortion to be performed at this stage of pregnancy and the usual reason is for fetal abnormality.

Australian abortion laws vary
Abortion laws vary between Australian states and territories, which can be confusing. Most of the variation concerns the reason for abortion and the stage of pregnancy. Early abortion (up to 14 weeks) is available Australia-wide and later abortion is available in most states and territories.

 

[faible]

If my memory serves me, from my old Uni days of Moral Phil class, it all revolves around the concept of person-hood....At what stage of foetal development we can ascertain person-hood?.....Does a foetus engage in conscious thought?....Or is the definition of 'life' defined solely by the independent heart-beat of an organism?

Of course, all fetuses are fully dependent upon their mother's heart-beat, so true independence of life, at least from a purely bio-organic perspective, cannot be said to have been achieved prior to child-birth itself & our first breath.

There are many factors to be considered & I don't actually have a problem with anyone's beliefs or stance on the issue....Far be it for me to moralize to anyone else on what to believe & how to live their life.....Which means that I am pro-choice on the issue.

I thought it was just based around the viability of the fetus being born before / after the 24 week cutoff.

 

[faible]

According to the Family Planning site:
Abortion is the termination (end) of a pregnancy. Most abortions are performed during the first trimester of pregnancy (up to 12 weeks), but some may be performed in the second trimester (12 to 24 weeks) or, in rare circumstances, in the third trimester (24 to 36 weeks).

What does the Victorian law say about abortion?
Not more than 24 weeks pregnant
The law allows women to choose to have an abortion. The service must be provided by a registered medical practitioner. Services providing the procedure beyond 16 weeks are limited and can be costly.

More than 24 weeks pregnant
The law allows for abortion if at least two doctors agree that the abortion is appropriate in all the circumstances. In making their decision, the doctors must consider all relevant medical circumstances and the woman's current and future physical, psychological and social circumstances. It is very uncommon for an abortion to be performed at this stage of pregnancy and the usual reason is for fetal abnormality.

Australian abortion laws vary
Abortion laws vary between Australian states and territories, which can be confusing. Most of the variation concerns the reason for abortion and the stage of pregnancy. Early abortion (up to 14 weeks) is available Australia-wide and later abortion is available in most states and territories.

Yes you can link the current laws, I’m still not sure what your point is?

 

[Maggie5]

Yes you can link the current laws, I’m still not sure what your point is?

You asked: "At what point do you consider abortion to no longer be acceptable?"
No point, it depends on when the person carrying decides.
However if those that don't consider it to be the woman's choice, then it would be any time after the pregnancy is confirmed.
Maybe I didn't understand what you were asking? Which is why I posted the legal.

 

[faible]

You asked: "At what point do you consider abortion to no longer be acceptable?"
No point, it depends on when the person carrying decides.
However if those that don't consider it to be the woman's choice, then it would be any time after the pregnancy is confirmed.
Maybe I don't understand what you are asking? Which is why I posted the legal.

I was curious as to your views on the ‘your body, your choice’ argument about pregnancy, when beyond a certain point modern medicine and our legal system doesn’t actually allow it.