Society/Culture The Abortion Thread

[demondavey]

It's a shitty situation to put it mildly. For those who take the stance that a fetus is a life though, the circumstance often doesn't matter to them. The child had no less say in how they were conceived than the woman r*ped. From the position of 'life begins at conception', the logic stands up. Doesn't make it any nicer though, of course.

For those who take that stance, they need to learn that this victim didn’t want the fetus in her, and that the environment this kid could be raised in is one of serious negativity.

All these pro life whackos need to crawl out from under a rock and realise it’s the 21st century.

 

[ShanDog]

For those who take that stance, they need to learn that this victim didn’t want the fetus in her, and that the environment this kid could be raised in is one of serious negativity.

All these pro life whackos need to crawl out from under a rock and realise it’s the 21st century.

Dont be an idiot. Of course the victim didn't ask for it. You're painting pro life people as stupid and in doing so, proving your own lack of thought on the matter. I've no idea what the current century has to do with anything, and I don't think you do either.

 

[demondavey]

Dont be an idiot. Of course the victim didn't ask for it. You're painting pro life people as stupid and in doing so, proving your own lack of thought on the matter. I've no idea what the current century has to do with anything, and I don't think you do either.

Mate, I am painting all these pro life people as being backward and naive to the issues caused to families who have a fetus that’s been given a medically compromised diagnosis. I believe having to raise a child in compromised circumstances mentally or physically is something that we shouldn’t have to do. The implications are intense, stressful, taxing in so many ways on existing family members and children, taxing on mental health and physical health for the parents who act as carers. It’s not life.

You’re also putting a child into an environment of discomfort if they know what’s going on. It’s awful. I am painting pro life people as insensitive and out of touch with current social conditions, unaware of how these situations promote compromised mental health when we all have enough stresses and burdens in our life.

Technology and progress shouldn’t be impeded by an archaic and fundamentally questionable set of religious beliefs that may as well have died out with the dinosaurs. I’ve got no time for this pro life garbage that is preached by brainwashed religious fanatics living in pleasantville.

The 21st century has everything to do with it, the 21st century represents what should be total progress and achievement in our medical, social and technological success. What is conservative extremism good for these days? Keeping us in the past and hoping God will reach out of the heavens and ‘make us all at peace’?

Get real. Don’t call me an idiot ever again.

 

[Leeda]

Dont be an idiot. Of course the victim didn't ask for it. You're painting pro life people as stupid and in doing so, proving your own lack of thought on the matter. I've no idea what the current century has to do with anything, and I don't think you do either.

what is a victim? just because it is not your perceived notion of worthwhile breeding does it make it right to demean the child in all this?
If i have got this wrong and there was a back story to this then even so it should not be treated as a mistake, or victimisation or even
a reason to use religion to say that these things are God's word.

Just throwing tough thoughts out there.

 

[ShanDog]

Mate, I am painting all these pro life people as being backward and naive to the issues caused to families who have a fetus that’s been given a medically compromised diagnosis. I believe having to raise a child in compromised circumstances mentally or physically is something that we shouldn’t have to do. The implications are intense, stressful, taxing in so many ways on existing family members and children, taxing on mental health and physical health for the parents who act as carers. It’s not life.

You didn't say that, and it also is the small minority of reasons for abortion. Funny you are able to say what is life so clearly there...

You’re also putting a child into an environment of discomfort if they know what’s going on. It’s awful. I am painting pro life people as insensitive and out of touch with current social conditions, unaware of how these situations promote compromised mental health when we all have enough stresses and burdens in our life.

Ethics and principles be damned - it's what is easier that matters eh?

Technology and progress shouldn’t be impeded by an archaic and fundamentally questionable set of religious beliefs that may as well have died out with the dinosaurs. I’ve got no time for this pro life garbage that is preached by brainwashed religious fanatics living in pleasantville.

The 21st century has everything to do with it, the 21st century represents what should be total progress and achievement in our medical, social and technological success. What is conservative extremism good for these days? Keeping us in the past and hoping God will reach out of the heavens and ‘make us all at peace’?

Get real. Don’t call me an idiot ever again.

"The current date" is not an argument in any way. Society fails to learn from the mistakes of its history constantly. It's about the dumbest argument you can make in any topic. I note how keen you are to conflate this issue of the value of life with anti-religious sentiment. I'll give that argument the weight it deserves - nil. Western society values life highly. Higher than any other period in our history as far as I know. Abortion may be a hot topic for religious types, but it also raises core questions about how (and when) we view life. To dismiss the questions because "the current year" is stupid.

 

[ShanDog]

what is a victim? just because it is not your perceived notion of worthwhile breeding does it make it right to demean the child in all this?
If i have got this wrong and there was a back story to this then even so it should not be treated as a mistake, or victimisation or even
a reason to use religion to say that these things are God's word.

Just throwing tough thoughts out there.

I think you mistake what my post meant. The child created from a rape has no guilt, nor responsibility for what happened to the mother (victim).

 

[demondavey]

You didn't say that, and it also is the small minority of reasons for abortion. Funny you are able to say what is life so clearly there...


Ethics and principles be damned - it's what is easier that matters eh?


"The current date" is not an argument in any way. Society fails to learn from the mistakes of its history constantly. It's about the dumbest argument you can make in any topic. I note how keen you are to conflate this issue of the value of life with anti-religious sentiment. I'll give that argument the weight it deserves - nil. Western society values life highly. Higher than any other period in our history as far as I know. Abortion may be a hot topic for religious types, but it also raises core questions about how (and when) we view life. To dismiss the questions because "the current year" is stupid.

Small minority of reasons for abortion? What a joke. Every parent has significant and comprehensive genetic and fetal testing to determine the health of their child. I’d say a large proportion of abortions occur in the stage where fetal development is compromised.

What’s easier that matters? Unless you’ve been in this particular situation I’d suggest you keep your judgemental viewpoints well and truly isolated, or PM me for a more in depth discussion. I for one am not a believer nor do I buy into the conservatively shallow religious bothering that exists to enforce a ‘sense of duty’ on people.

I am done with you. Unless you want to PM me and discuss it, don’t bother quoting me or continuing this. Only PM me if you’ve had real life experience like I have, but don’t push your agenda down my throat to fight your ‘cause’.

 

[demondavey]

I think you mistake what my post meant. The child created from a rape has no guilt, nor responsibility for what happened to the mother (victim).

No they don’t, but do you seriously think that enforcing a sense of responsibility on a newborn is fair or realistic? Let alone the poor victim whose life has been turned upside down by a decision that wasn’t hers? You’re focusing on that child, not the victim forcibly r*ped and impregnated. Her life is ruined. She looks at a child every day reminding her of the man who r*ped her.

But yeah, let’s focus on trying to shift the responsibility onto the child rather than the poor mother who never wanted this and now has to make millions of choices for her bastard child. A child she never wanted with a criminal pig who violated her.

What if it was your sister? If you have one. Or your mother? r*ped by a selfish low life pig and the poor woman had to have that grow in her let alone giving birth because the law states so?

You need to get your line of thinking right.

 

[ShanDog]

Small minority of reasons for abortion? What a joke. Every parent has significant and comprehensive genetic and fetal testing to determine the health of their child. I’d say a large proportion of abortions occur in the stage where fetal development is compromised.

What’s easier that matters? Unless you’ve been in this particular situation I’d suggest you keep your judgemental viewpoints well and truly isolated, or PM me for a more in depth discussion. I for one am not a believer nor do I buy into the conservatively shallow religious bothering that exists to enforce a ‘sense of duty’ on people.

I am done with you. Unless you want to PM me and discuss it, don’t bother quoting me or continuing this. Only PM me if you’ve had real life experience like I have, but don’t push your agenda down my throat to fight your ‘cause’.

No they don’t, but do you seriously think that enforcing a sense of responsibility on a newborn is fair or realistic? Let alone the poor victim whose life has been turned upside down by a decision that wasn’t hers? You’re focusing on that child, not the victim forcibly r*ped and impregnated. Her life is ruined. She looks at a child every day reminding her of the man who r*ped her.

But yeah, let’s focus on trying to shift the responsibility onto the child rather than the poor mother who never wanted this and now has to make millions of choices for her bastard child. A child she never wanted with a criminal pig who violated her.

What if it was your sister? If you have one. Or your mother? r*ped by a selfish low life pig and the poor woman had to have that grow in her let alone giving birth because the law states so?

You need to get your line of thinking right.

You're clearly far too emotionally invested in this topic to have a fruitful discussion, so I'll take the advice you gave and ignored and not discuss it any further with you.

 

[demondavey]

You're clearly far too emotionally invested in this topic to have a fruitful discussion, so I'll take the advice you gave and ignored and not discuss it any further with you.

Being emotionally invested gives me the right to understand the facts of life, unlike you pretending to ram your agenda down my throat because you have an opinion derived from being brainwashed.

You want to talk about this in a fruitful way? PM me. Otherwise understand you’ve got no right to tell people what is right or wrong.

 

[demondavey]

You're clearly far too emotionally invested in this topic to have a fruitful discussion, so I'll take the advice you gave and ignored and not discuss it any further with you.

You didn’t answer my question? What if a female family member of yours was r*ped? And then forced to have that child? How would you describe the mental anguish she would suffer? Or would you put a bible on her bedside table and tell her ‘He will care for you’?

 

[demondavey]

You're clearly far too emotionally invested in this topic to have a fruitful discussion, so I'll take the advice you gave and ignored and not discuss it any further with you.

Being emotionally invested threatens you doesn’t it? Because you’re now dealing with someone who understands the facts inside and out. You NEVER answered my questions, you simply dismissed me as to difficult a person to talk to because you’re not able to sell me your propaganda.

Your viewpoints are that of a bully.

 

[Toump Ass]

And here you are.

The miracle of life, praise Jesus!

 

[Benny78]

Are Christians pro abortion for babies with Downs Syndrome?

I assume they would be. You'd imagine they'd see the individual as demon spawn and make an exception.

How very hypocritical of them to make exceptions exclusively because the individual is disabled (ie in their eyes demon spawn). They are literally the worst group of people going around.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Total bullshit. You could just as easily say children who didn't attend childcare "missed out" on regular interaction & activities with their social group while being forced to sit at home unattended in the corner of the house while their mother shagged the postman.

As a society, are we now seeing with the youth what happens when we have a generation that have been reared by strangers from birth?

It was more latch key kids when I was at high school from the start of the 80s until the mid 80s. Full time daycare really seem to take off in the 90s.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Are Christians pro abortion for babies with Downs Syndrome?

I assume they would be. You'd imagine they'd see the individual as demon spawn and make an exception.

How very hypocritical of them to make exceptions exclusively because the individual is disabled (ie in their eyes demon spawn). They are literally the worst group of people going around.

Although it's almost certainly taken from a historical perspective rather than a modern one, this is some interesting food for thought;

http://www.dsq-sds.org/article/view/988/1164

Biblical Perspectives on Disability and Emerging Theological Themes

In the Bible disability is viewed as a disease (The Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible: 1962; Encyclopaedia Judaica: 1972). The most common diseases mentioned in the Bible are blindness, deafness, dumbness, leprosy, and paralysis. Visual impairment is the most common form of physical disability in antiquity. Aside from people like Isaac (Gen. 27:1), Jacob (Gen. 48:10), Eli (1 Sam 3:2 and 4:15), and Ahijah the Shilomite (1Kings 14:4), whose eyesight failed in old age, natural causes of disability are not mentioned in the Bible. Disability is attributed to God. The general view of the Old Testament writers is that God brings disability as punishment for transgressions for sin or as an expression of God's wrath for people's disobedience. It is seen as a curse and as a result of unbelief and ignorance (Jewish Encyclopaedia, 1920; The Talmud of Jerusalem, 1956; and Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1972)...

...Physical disability and the perfection of the body is another theme found in the Bible. In the very centre of this theology is the teaching found in the book of Leviticus, which sets forth the requirements for ministry. Physical imperfection is seen as an impediment to the exercise of the priestly office for the descendant of Aaron. In addition, the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:

"Speak to Aaron, saying, none of your offspring throughout their generation who has a blemish may approach to offer the bread of his God. For no one who has a blemish shall draw near, a man blind or lame, or one who has a mutilated face or a limb too long, or a man who has an injured foot or an injured hand, or a hunchback or a dwarf or a man with a defect in his sight, or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles.

"No man of the offspring of Aaron the priest who has a blemish shall come near to offer the Lord's food offering; since he has a blemish, he shall not come near to offer the bread of his God. He may eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy and of the holy things, but he shall not go through the veil or approach the altar, because he has a blemish, that he may not profane my sanctuaries, for I am the Lord who sanctifies them (Leviticus 21:16-23)."

The word "blemish" originally meant a "black spot." It later came to denote anything abnormal or deviating from a given standard, whether physical, moral, or ritualistic. The word "blemish" came to be used to describe the various abnormalities that disqualify one from priesthood (The Jewish Encyclopaedia, 1920).

The interpretation of this Leviticus text can be traced to the conflation between physical disability, perfection of the body, and moral impurity (Encyclopaedia Judaica: 1972). According to Eiesland (1994), the theological meaning of perfection has historically included physical flawlessness, and many religious orientations make a direct connection between physical perfection and spiritual beauty. Accordingly, PWD (people with disabilities) lack perfection and embody "un-wholeness." Wenham (1981:292 reference missing in Works Cited) also notes: "The idea emerges clearly that holiness finds physical expression in wholeness and normality." Physical disability is an obvious evidence of a person's sin and a sign of punishment from God. In other words, the perfection of the body is a symbol of the perfection of the soul (Melcher, 1998).

PWD are also viewed as unworthy in society. In 2 Sam 19:24-28, King David's servant, Ziba, bars Mephibosheth, who was physically impaired, from accompanying David on a trip. He was not worthy to be with the King because of his disability. Mephibosheth himself feels unworthy. In vs. 26, Mephibosheth says: "My Lord the King, since I your servant am lame." In addition, in Daniel 1:3-4, PWD are regarded as worthless. The king ordered Aphpenazi, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility to be trained in the king's service. Vs 4 particularly emphasizes that the men should be handsome and without any physical defect. This view further reinforces the earlier prejudice, in which physical imperfection is seen as an impediment to the exercise of the priestly office for the descendant of Aaron.

Although Biblical and theological views of disability have led to a discriminatory and exclusive approach to viewing PWD, it is important to point out that perspectives that take an emancipatory and inclusive approach to disability issues are also found in the Bible and Christian theology...

In fairness, we are reading about a people and a time that are pretty much alien to our own. The Talmud, Bible and Qu'ran all come from a world long since passed. These ancient perspectives are still useful to us though - they show where we have come from and also the living-well-out-of-their-time mindset of today's religious fundamentalists who seek to drag the secular world kicking and screaming back to a dead age.

 

[Toump Ass]

As a society, are we now seeing with the youth what happens when we have a generation that have been reared by strangers from birth?

What are we seeing with the youth?

 

[Boston tiger]

Are Christians pro abortion for babies with Downs Syndrome?

I assume they would be. You'd imagine they'd see the individual as demon spawn and make an exception.

How very hypocritical of them to make exceptions exclusively because the individual is disabled (ie in their eyes demon spawn). They are literally the worst group of people going around.

Christians is such a broad term nowadays. But main stream Christian churches who have doctrine on the sanctity of life would never be pro abortion.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

What are we seeing with the youth?

Dunno, what are you seeing? What do you have to benchmark it against, how old are you?

This is what I'm seeing.

A lack of awareness on how to behave in public. Lack of respect towards teachers and emergency services personnel.

A huge, **** you, I'll do what I want attitude and Veruca Salt, I want it now.

The worst bit is that for the large part, the parents are my age. This noticeable change has taken place in a single generation. I'm no shrieking violet but it actually embarrasses me when I see some of the behaviour on display in public these days.

You can dismiss this as a, 'but things were better in my day sook' all you like, I don't really care. I grew up in the roughest part of Geelong in the 70s and 80s and have seen some bad things, but just on a general day to day, walk down the street, go do some shopping sort of thing, I see appalling behaviour, a lot worse than anything I saw growing up.

 

[Toump Ass]

Dunno, what are you seeing? What do you have to benchmark it against, how old are you?

This is what I'm seeing.

A lack of awareness on how to behave in public. Lack of respect towards teachers and emergency services personnel.

A huge, **** you, I'll do what I want attitude and Veruca Salt, I want it now.

The worst bit is that for the large part, the parents are my age. This noticeable change has taken place in a single generation. I'm no shrieking violet but it actually embarrasses me when I see some of the behaviour on display in public these days.

You can dismiss this as a, 'but things were better in my day sook' all you like, I don't really care. I grew up in the roughest part of Geelong in the 70s and 80s and have seen some bad things, but just on a general day to day, walk down the street, go do some shopping sort of thing, I see appalling behaviour, a lot worse than anything I saw growing up.

Well, yeah: you do sound like a bitter old fool.

I'm sorry we're a more progressive society than in the 70's and 80's (when was the last time you heard racial vilification at the football?). FWIW the young people I know are way more socially conscious & politically active than my generation- and I think that's fantastic.

All the same, can you please elaborate on the behaviour on display in public that makes you feel embarrassed? I want to make sure I'm doing those things as often as possible.

And to answer your question: No, I don't think it's childcare that is a result of poor adolescent behaviour. It's much more likely to be drugs.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Well, yeah: you do sound like a bitter old fool.

I'm sorry we're a more progressive society than in the 70's and 80's (when was the last time you heard racial vilification at the football?). FWIW the young people I know are way more socially conscious & politically active than my generation- and I think that's fantastic.

All the same, can you please elaborate on the behaviour on display in public that makes you feel embarrassed? I want to make sure I'm doing those things as often as possible.

And to answer your question: No, I don't think it's childcare that is a result of poor adolescent behaviour. It's much more likely to be drugs.

Your profile says you're 27 so you were either born in 1990 or 1991. In my original post that you responded to, I said that the use of childcare had exploded in the 90s, so you don't know any better.

That's ok, it's not your fault.

 

[cartwright]

Dunno, what are you seeing? What do you have to benchmark it against, how old are you?

This is what I'm seeing.

A lack of awareness on how to behave in public. Lack of respect towards teachers and emergency services personnel.

A huge, **** you, I'll do what I want attitude and Veruca Salt, I want it now.

The worst bit is that for the large part, the parents are my age. This noticeable change has taken place in a single generation. I'm no shrieking violet but it actually embarrasses me when I see some of the behaviour on display in public these days.

You can dismiss this as a, 'but things were better in my day sook' all you like, I don't really care. I grew up in the roughest part of Geelong in the 70s and 80s and have seen some bad things, but just on a general day to day, walk down the street, go do some shopping sort of thing, I see appalling behaviour, a lot worse than anything I saw growing up.

example? and where did you see these things?

 

[Toump Ass]

Your profile says you're 27

I understated my age on bigfooty to attract younger partners. But anyway:

Childcare isn't responsible for young people's attitudes. That's absolutely ridiculous.

(What did your grandparents blame young people's behaviour on in the 70's?)

 

[Benny78]

Although it's almost certainly taken from a historical perspective rather than a modern one, this is some interesting food for thought;



In fairness, we are reading about a people and a time that are pretty much alien to our own. The Talmud, Bible and Qu'ran all come from a world long since passed. These ancient perspectives are still useful to us though - they show where we have come from and also the living-well-out-of-their-time mindset of today's religious fundamentalists who seek to drag the secular world kicking and screaming back to a dead age.

It's pure human nature written into a book by a bunch of primitive animals or Babylonian peasants. Oh do something bad you'll go to hell! It's simply feelings of human vindictiveness and the like expressed into one laughable book

Conservatives have more or less retained the same views/ill feelings towards all these topics. That's why the bible is such a joke. The people with an IQ of 40 today express the exact same views and feelings towards things as the people with an IQ of 40 did thousands of years ago! You'd think that'd be proof enough to them.

 

[demondavey]

Because I see the destruction of an embryo as the destruction of human life.

Surely you would know that that is the usual reason for opposition towards embryonic stem cell research (and by extension support for other stem cell research from adults)?

Cool. Let’s just hold back medical advancement because of ethics. Please.