The Academies - 2016

[MightyTiger]

No one can blame GWS for what the AFL have given them, and what all clubs signed off on.

The AFL should scrap all club based zones and academies and introduce a state wide AFL funded academy where they funnel these kids through to the AFL system, no one club should ever have the right to cherry pick the best kids from a certain area.

The AFL and all clubs need to come up with a viable system that makes these kids not want to go back home, it's in the nature of all sports that clubs will lose players to other clubs.

 

[MightyTiger]

3,871 population of Narrandera.
399 (actually Kennedy lives in Sydney now) so 398 population of Collingullie.

They're not huge anything towns.

My argument is two fold:

1) Without the Riverina the GWS will be more dependant on the AFL for a longer period of time, for a greater amount of money.

2) Until the GWS academy the Riverina produced 2 top 20 picks from 2000-2014. It spikes to 5 if you include our kids from last year.

Is your argument about anything other than emotion and the fact a club you hate actually has something positive going for it?

Let's not pretend that GWS are the saving grace for the whole of Riverina, any club, given a specific zone, and allowed to setup an academy would more then likely produce the same quality players coming through the academies as GWS have.

 

[Ben Drever]

Does anyone realise that players choose wether or not they want to be in the academy, no one is forcing them.

The players would accept free shit off any club that offered.


If someone offered me a new car..
I'd accept it

I think before draft night they can choose whether to accept the clubs nomination for the draft though?

Like Josh Dunkley last year? Choose which club to accept

 

[Colonial]

So we have no academy's at all in Western Sydney?

Really? Thanks for the heads-up. I thought that we were running Auskick and Holiday Camps and Developmental programs from Concord to Katoomba.

We actually don't put in any work at all?

Charlatans.

Now I know why you hate us so.

You can include the central west of NSW in that as well mate

 

[isamedthegiants]

I guess Sydney, Gold Coast and Brisbane possess divine powers then? What makes GWS so special? Do Callum Mills and Isaac Heeney actually exist or are they mythological beings?

Mills' grandfather played WAFL and represented Western Australia in the 1960's. He has AFL in his blood. So, by you're logic - he should have been exempt from the academy programmes because he would always have an affinity for the game...Probably not the best example for you to use...

Heeney...He is one of those freaks that excels at all sports....68 goals in 12 games of soccer, 5 tries in a Rugby League Grand Final, a cricket average of over 200 whilst playing against older age groups....Heeney is a freak. And a bloody rare diamond. The Swans got lucky they found him and developed him. A great result of the academy working, but a great example of luck, also.

I'm confused, why does GWS get to claim special snowflake status and demand access to ready-made AFL players under the farcical excuse of "giving them a pathway" to the AFL?

Numbers speak for themselves. 2 top 20 draft picks in 15 years until 20015 when we drafted 3 kids from the region. You could say that the very existence of the academy has breathed life back into the region and whipped up some lost passion for the code.

Honestly, the mere suggestion that there was no pathway to the AFL from the Riverina is ******* farcical. Some of the best players in the game have walked out of there.

To quote Eddie Murphy..."But what have you done for me lately!?"

2 top 20 draftees in recent history. Poor, poor, poor.

Half the Riverina is within a two hour drive to a TAC cup club.

So half the Riverina is a 4 hour round trip, how far is the other half? 7-8 hour round trip? Keep that's a leisurely drive for a game of football, isn't it...???

And the way this is being argued is just the epitome of intellectual dishonesty. No, this is not about academies being patently unfair, this is about one academy far out-stepping the boundaries of what an academy could be. I have no idea why I keep trying to talk to you about this when all you want to do is stamp your baby feetsies and scream about how we hate GWS, how we have impossible standards and don't want to support NSW. But nevertheless, I'm nothing if not persistent.

Persistent isn't the word beginning with P that I would choose to describe you.

The purpose of academies is two-fold.

1. Provide priority access into state clubs for local players in non-traditional areas to increase the appeal of the AFL compared to professional sports which can be played in the home state.

Is that your idea of what an Academy should be or the guidelines from the AFL? Because that sounds like an Auskick programme, not an elite way of developing teenagers and nurturing their skills and giving them something to work towards if they are good enough.

It's the Marketing Departments job to increase the appeal of the game.

2. Develop younger players from non-traditional AFL backgrounds to mitigate the disadvantage of playing in an area where australian rules football is played by very few.

I refer you to the AFL's own Annual report from 2005.

The Riverina area meets neither of those. It is AFL heartland (formerly a breeding ground for South Melbourne) and six hours away from Sydney. QED, it does not need to be part of an academy. Real simple shit. And all you've got to argue in your favor is a lack of draftees from the Riverina in a few recent albeit cherry-picked years. Like no other area in Australia has drops. When was the last time somebody was drafted from the Pilbara?

A breeding ground for South Melbourne? Jeez they won how many flags pulling all those legends from the area? 7? 8? 15? How many flags did they win on the backs of the Riverina kids?

You've just said it yourself, the reason you want the Riverina to continue being part of the GWS zone is because you want immediate access to skilled players. You don't want to have to wait for success in non-traditional areas. Tough shit, that's what academies were meant to be.

No, I want the Riverina as it benefits all clubs. If there are 5 stars this year, do you honestly think we can take them all? We've still got to decrease our list size, 2 of. The kids we developed will go to other clubs. Maybe one will end up at Tullamarine.

Hopefully he is only passing through and going to a decent club somewhere else in Melbourne, but the poor bigger might just have to stay.

 

[bird_man]

We will. We are. But it will take 15 years to get the first player.
.

Well how many academy players have you had so far?

You are complaining because you migh have to wait another ten years for an academy player after having heaps of them handed to you already?

How often do you think Victorian clubs get father sons?

Do you think it's a fair competition when one club is able to pick 2 or 3 of the best kids before everyone else?

 

[Roylion]

I don't get the furore over the GWS Academy. It's not as if GWS have those players locked in already.

There's a bidding system. GWS won't get all that talent, if reports that there are up to five players from there zone that could go in the Top 30 are correct. If GWS want talent from their zone, they'll have to trade for picks to secure that talent. That then allows other clubs to improve their own position in the draft and therefore access to better kids, some of whom will be that very talent in GWS' zone.

It's the other clubs that will decide the draft market value of any talent in GWS's zone.

 

[Hollow Knight]

GWS will go down the ladder like other teams do. They will keep getting high drafts forever in a day. There is 22 first round draft picks on your current team. How is that right?

Nope.

 

[Grizzly86]

I don't get the furore over the GWS Academy. It's not as if GWS have those players locked in already.

There's a bidding system. GWS won't get all that talent, if reports that there are up to five players from there zone that could go in the Top 30 are correct. If GWS want talent from their zone, they'll have to trade for picks to secure that talent. That then allows other clubs to improve their own position in the draft and therefore access to better kids, some of whom will be that very talent in GWS' zone.

It's the other clubs that will decide the draft market value of any talent in GWS's zone.

Why strategise to benefit slightly from it when you can piss and whinge and pressure VFL House in the hope of benefitting greatly from it?

 

[dlanod]

I think before draft night they can choose whether to accept the clubs nomination for the draft though?

Nah, academy kids are bound to the club's decision. It was raised as a problem last year and I was in favour of changing it, at least letting them have a decision at the start of their final year, but it looks like those hunting academies have found more promising ways to nerf them so haven't bothered following through on the initial noise they made about it. Nothing cynical in their play there.

 

[go_the_dockers]

I don't get the furore over the GWS Academy. It's not as if GWS have those players locked in already.

There's a bidding system. GWS won't get all that talent, if reports that there are up to five players from there zone that could go in the Top 30 are correct. If GWS want talent from their zone, they'll have to trade for picks to secure that talent. That then allows other clubs to improve their own position in the draft and therefore access to better kids, some of whom will be that very talent in GWS' zone.

It's the other clubs that will decide the draft market value of any talent in GWS's zone.

The 20% discount means they get 1 of the players for free.

I would love an extra top 30 pick.

Surely when a zone has better selections than WA things need to change.

This will be the 2nd year in row that NSW has had more top 20 picks than WA.

 

[Grizzly86]

The 20% discount means they get 1 of the players for free.

I would love an extra top 30 pick.

Surely when a zone has better selections than WA things need to change.

This will be the 2nd year in row that NSW has had more top 20 picks than WA.

Then your mob and the Eagles need to be rallying the WAFL to rectify their shortcomings when it comes to talent identification and development.

 

[Roylion]

Why strategise to benefit slightly from it when you can piss and whinge and pressure VFL House in the hope of benefitting greatly from it?

Exactly.

If these GWS academy players are so good, why wouldn't a Victorian club bid their first round pick on one of those players and force GWS to match it with their subsequent picks? If for argument's sake GWS say have Pick 9 in the draft and their preferred player is bid with a Pick 4 by another club, then GWS' Pick 9 and their subsequent picks are downgraded to the value of Pick 4's points. (Those picks go to the end of the draft or in the case of where a Pick's points are only partly spent, they are downgraded).

That's not to mention that GWS will also be looking for a number of mid-range picks for points and might be prepared to trade their higher picks to gain them.

Both scenarios improve the draft positions of the other clubs.

 

[Grizzly86]

How many Giants Top 20 picks have ended up back home? Comparatively to how many played on the weekend for the Giants?

 

[Grizzly86]

Exactly.

If these GWS academy players are so good, why wouldn't a Victorian club bid their first round pick on one of those players and force GWS to match it with their subsequent picks? If for argument's sake GWS say have Pick 9 in the draft and their preferred player is bid with a Pick 4 by another club, then GWS' Pick 9 and their subsequent picks are downgraded to the value of Pick 4's points. (Those picks go to the end of the draft or in the case of where a Pick's points are only partly spent, they are downgraded).

That's not to mention that GWS will also be looking for a number of mid-range picks for points and might be prepared to trade their higher picks to gain them.

Both scenarios improve the draft positions of the other clubs.

The Giants will only be able to select 2 of these 5 kids in the Top 30, unless they trade out players for more picks. The players leaving, will be players that are "elite" in some people's rants this week, but they sure as hell will want the Giants to accept a pick in the 30s or 40s at trade time.

If this continues to roll on I would expect a few Melbourne clubs to reach maybe 2 or 3 spots at draft and bid on Academy players, to force the Giants hand and take them out of the draft by pick 15.

 

[Roylion]

The 20% discount means they get 1 of the players for free.

No they don't.

Brisbane didn't get their two Academy players for free.

Eric Hipwood taken at #14 cost #36 and #37, which were the Lions' next two picks. This improved the draft position of all clubs after these picks by two.
Keays taken at #24 cost #38 which was the Lions' next pick, Pick #40 their next pick after that, slipped to #47.

 

[Colonial]

 

[go_the_dockers]

No they don't.

Brisbane didn't get their two Academy players for free.

Eric Hipwood taken at #14 cost #36 and #37, which were the Lions' next two picks. This improved the draft position of all clubs after these picks by two.
Keays taken at #24 cost #38 which was the Lions' next pick, Pick #40 their next pick after that, slipped to #47.

If you get a 20% discount on 5 players, it is the same as buy 4 get 1 free. I was talking about the GWS who as you said have 5 top 30 players.

May have improved the position after pick 40, but you hurt the clubs who picks between 14 and 34.

I would love to get 14 pick upgrade on my second rounder for change.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Then your mob and the Eagles need to be rallying the WAFL to rectify their shortcomings when it comes to talent identification and development.

So GWS can take the players?

Why would they? They get no benefit from it.

 

[Colonial]

So GWS can take the players?

Why would they? They get no benefit from it.

Why the hell would we take more wa players?
We have ended our sa and wa scouts.
We only want nsw players.

 

[Suma Magic]

This is eerily similar to the CoLA debate.

Seems like just yesterday that Swans fans were trying to justify why Buddy needed an extra 100k a year to account for differences in the cost of living.

 

[go_the_dockers]

If GWS signed all these players at these picks, they would get a total 1523.8 point discount. Which is about pick 8.


2. Harrison Macreadie - 195cm, 82kg defender from Henty (GWS) - 2517
12. Kobe Mutch - 184cm, 75kg midfielder from Bendigo Pioneers (GWS) - 1268
15. Will Setterfield - 189cm, 73kg midfielder from Sandringham Dragons (GWS) - 1112
20. Harrison Perryman - 184cm, 75kg midfielder/forward from Collingullie (GWS) - 912
24. Todd Marshall - 197cm, 87kg forward from Murray Bushrangers (GWS) - 785
34. Zac Sproule - 193cm, 81kg forward from Murray Bushrangers (GWS) -542
37. Thomas Highmore - 189cm, 80kg midfielder from Eastlake (GWS) -483








1523.8

 

[yaybucky]

Have just examined the "real life" academy drafting example for Isaac Heeney.

Sydney gave up picks 18,37 and 38 for a player that Melbourne was going to take at pick 2.

The AFL say this was a fair outcome.

How is this fair for Melbourne who missed out on draft pick number two? There is no compensation for Melbourne other than the fact that their draft pick above 18 has moved forward one slot and their draft pick above 38 has moved forward two slots.

Assuming Sydney and GWS are both going to be top 6 clubs for the forseeable future, what is stopping them using their draft picks 16,32 and 48 to take the guns from their academy every year that such a gun is available?

The other unfairness is that having young guns in your academy gives you inside information when it comes to draft time. A gun can be identified as early as 15 but his subsequent performance can be "managed" so he appears to be not a gun to other clubs.

If you think this sort of thing does not happen then look into how Jimmy Bartel and Joel Selwood ended up at their preferred club come draft time.

I am absolutely with E Maguire on this topic

 

[Suma Magic]

The over-valuing of low picks is another issue the review needs to address.

 

[dlanod]

Have just examined the "real life" academy drafting example for Isaac Heeney.

Sydney gave up picks 18,37 and 38 for a player that Melbourne was going to take at pick 2.

The AFL say this was a fair outcome.

How is this fair for Melbourne who missed out on draft pick number two? There is no compensation for Melbourne other than the fact that their draft pick above 18 has moved forward one slot and their draft pick above 38 has moved forward two slots.

Assuming Sydney and GWS are both going to be top 6 clubs for the forseeable future, what is stopping them using their draft picks 16,32 and 48 to take the guns from their academy every year that such a gun is available?

The other unfairness is that having young guns in your academy gives you inside information when it comes to draft time. A gun can be identified as early as 15 but his subsequent performance can be "managed" so he appears to be not a gun to other clubs.

If you think this sort of thing does not happen then look into how Jimmy Bartel and Joel Selwood ended up at their preferred club come draft time.

I am absolutely with E Maguire on this topic

Heeney was bid on with pick 2 by Melbourne in 2014, but it was not under the latest rules. Sydney only gave up pick 18 for him.

Mills was bid on with pick 3 by Melbourne in 2015, not pick 2. Sydney did not have pick 18.

So quite frankly I have no idea who or what you're talking about with the above and I'm not sure you do either. Quality contribution.